Angry Mob of Racist Extremists Beats Black Man at Town Hall Meeting

[darkdog]

I think Friedrich Hayek's essay, The Use of Knowledge in Society, should be required reading in schools. It argues against centralized planning of resource allocation. Basically, he says that in a free-market system, there is still economic planning- it's just not centralized. The knowledge required to efficiently allocate scarce resources is so vast and changes so quickly that a single person or committee couldn't possibly do it- they have neither the mental capacity nor the access to quickly changing information. Such decisions are best made when spread across the entire population because it utilizes the knowledge of hundreds of millions rather than the knowledge of a few.

This certainly applies in this debate where we're talking about moving to a single-payer system in which the government would make decisions about the allocation of medical resources. It's a quick read. Check it out here: Hayek, The Use of Knowledge in Society | Library of Economics and Liberty

 

[Barbaro]

Well, I personally know this young woman said that Denmark was worse than Sweden. She is married to her Dane (Danish) husband, and are forced to reside in Sweden. She and her husband were banned from living in Denmark due to marriage/racism (In Denmark, she was told she could not marry her Dane husband, because she was a foreigner and was under 24, and that's why many foreigners move to Sweden.)

She have always had chronicially clogged sinuses. Their medical board has not approved any decongestants. When she went in with bronchitis and clogged sinuses. She was told her options were to go to an ENT twice a day to get them flushed whenever they got clogged, or to get hole drilled in her head. Now, she smuggles decongestants in from the US.

Last year, she was pregnant, and was frustrated with them. She tried to make sure her baby is healthy due to her family history (misshapen uterus, placenta abruptio). She had told them of her family history, but they told her that it is not procedure to do anything until complications occur. She also was not allowed to know the sex of the baby until week 34. One time, she thought she was 13 weeks pregnant, and hadn't been given a pregnancy test in Sweden, so she had to order some from the UK.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I understand and I sympathize but I do not believe each person should have equal access. Why? because we're not in utopia nor socialist country. Let me elaborate -

You seem to not know what you are talking about. You confused communism & socialism because they both are not same thing. :roll:


Don’t you know that the people do have “socialized medicine” is TriCare, Medicare and Medicaid?

Question for anti-socialist including accuse Obama as a socialist.

What about the public like police, fire service, post office, libraries, school, transport etc?

Don’t you know that the people receive money from Social Security including food stamps for some reason is also socialized as well?

You obligate to carry insurance on your car, isn´t it socialized? If it is, then don’t take a car and also don’t take public transport as well.

If you want to stay as anti-socialist then use bicycle or walking, not drive a car or take transport, living on Medicare, etc.

I saw on TV about US healthcare system at 2 days ago to yesterday. It amaze me that same people at town hall were being asked “Do you have Medicare?” Guess what? Almost all including same people who oppose “socialized health care” raise their hand and said that they are happy with Medicare. Some of all people said that they prefer Medicare over private health insurance companies. They said that they refused to pay tax for other people’s healthcare coverage… *speechless and :scratch:* Don’t they know where Medicare/Medicaid come from?

that's the simple reality. If you want everybody's health & well-being to be equal.... then that's what communism & socialism are for. you can always move to Cuba!

By your logic - do you think everybody should equally have same type of food including what "fat rich men" eat? Do you think everybody should equally have same type of drug including what "fat rich men" have such as the most expensive AIDS cocktail and multiple blood transfusions for life? Do you think everybody should equally have same quality of housing that "fat rich men" have?

If you says so then you should label Canada and Europe countries as communism & socialism as well, not just Cuba because our healthcare support equal healthcare for everyone and have public transport, public school, hospitals, social society, etc.

To my opinion, if anyone hates social system then is selfish and greedy.

Cuba healthcare is positive.
Cubans have good heart.


Health Care in Cuba

Why Cuba Is Exporting Health Care to the U.S. | Health and Wellness | AlterNet

 

[Jiro]

Under-the-table means illegal.

I'm talking about legal discounts.

Another example: Car windshield replacement is about 1/3 less when uninsured motorists pay. If the car has full coverage, windshield replacement is free to the driver but it costs the insurance company more.

Only some states charge more for credit card gas purchases. We don't do that in the South. I notice when we travel it is more common in the North and Northeast.

ah. thanks for correction. yes what we did was a legal discount.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Do you have the European nations list of annual salaries of hospital doctors?

Any German version link is fine.

I found interesting links about world salary.

International Average Salary Income Comparison

General Physician Average Salary Income - International Comparison

Physiotherapist Average Salary Income - International Comparison

Professional Nurse Average Salary Income - International Comparison

Professor Average Salary Income - International Comparison

And more lists, you can compare when it´s not just doctors, nurse, professor, theraptist, etc.

You can check German doctor´s €120,000 a year at link, I post toward Darkdog.

Liebling, what would you have us do? Put caps of doctor salaries? That would be a great way to discourage people from becoming doctors, which would lead to a shortage in doctors. It's already hard enough with 4 years pre-med, then 4 years med school, then at least 4 years exhausting residency. After that, they have to worry about frivolous lawsuits, working long hours and weekends, getting called in the middle of the night, etc. I don't know why people do it, but they do. Destroying their incentives to do it won't help much.

What we do? nothing... we can´t change or tell them what to do but themselves. All what I do is express my POV after collect people´s experiences. Every doctors around world also went unvitersity to be doctor, surgeron, etc. as well, not just US.

I found interesting link about the doctors from 5 different countries´s view including some of salary.
FRONTLINE: sick around the world: analysis: how does it work for doctors in these five countries? | PBS

 

[Liebling:-)))]

If you believe that the US doctors are cheating, then what makes you think the doctors won't rip off Obama's plan?

That salary of three times more is often used to cover doctors' malpractice insurance coverage. We need tort reform to cap punitive judgments.

Check my post #192.

So? That's not abuse or fraud. That's good business practice. If patients pay cash, the doctor gets paid quicker than waiting for the insurance process. That keeps the cash flowing. Almost all businesses, not just medical, offer cash discounts.

To my view remain unchanged. You know my view on this in several debate threads.

Is it fair to increase the premiums on insured person that´s because doctor billed their insurance company more than they billed uninsured person?

I learn thru TV over US healthcare system... Many people gave up to insure for their family since their health companies raise premiums $1,000 more per month which is too much. According TV, I saw yesterday that a lot of Americans want Obama healthcare reform.

Anyway, about businesses... I often receive the bill from any companies including early payment discount. I get 2% early payment discount if I pay within 7 or 14 days, after 7 or 14 days I lost 2% early payment discount. I made quick payment before 7 or 14 days then I get 2% discount. It´s not fraud because they wrote in that bill including early payment discount. For me is fraud, when the doctor billed uninsured person less than insursed person because insured person have to pay high permiums to health insurance company.

Original cost was $970. Cash payment was $873. That was a 10% savings.

for answer my question.

I don't see the difference. We do same - a copy of statement of what kind of treatment we receive and the bills.

Well, I have seen American´s health card which is not same as mine because they don´t have photo on their health card. Without photo on healthcard, it´s easy to abuse insurance companies because they can stole healthcard from you and abuse your healthcard.

Accord Americans, many doctors fiddle the medical cost. Of course they went to doctor for correction but all what the doctor do is advised them to file lawsuit against company, etc to get more money than doctor billed them. :roll:

 

[Foxrac]

You seem to not know what you are talking about. You confused communism & socialism because they both are not same thing. :roll:


Don’t you know that the people do have “socialized medicine” is TriCare, Medicare and Medicaid?

Question for anti-socialist including accuse Obama as a socialist.

What about the public like police, fire service, post office, libraries, school, transport etc?

Don’t you know that the people receive money from Social Security including food stamps for some reason is also socialized as well?

You obligate to carry insurance on your car, isn´t it socialized? If it is, then don’t take a car and also don’t take public transport as well.

If you want to stay as anti-socialist then use bicycle or walking, not drive a car or take transport, living on Medicare, etc.

I saw on TV about US healthcare system at 2 days ago to yesterday. It amaze me that same people at town hall were being asked “Do you have Medicare?” Guess what? Almost all including same people who oppose “socialized health care” raise their hand and said that they are happy with Medicare. Some of all people said that they prefer Medicare over private health insurance companies. They said that they refused to pay tax for other people’s healthcare coverage… *speechless and :scratch:* Don’t they know where Medicare/Medicaid come from?





If you says so then you should label Canada and Europe countries as communism & socialism as well, not just Cuba because our healthcare support equal healthcare for everyone and have public transport, public school, hospitals, social society, etc.

To my opinion, if anyone hates social system then is selfish and greedy.

Cuba healthcare is positive.
Cubans have good heart.


Health Care in Cuba

Why Cuba Is Exporting Health Care to the U.S. | Health and Wellness | AlterNet

If I were you, I wouldn't compare US health care with developing countries because health care in many developing countries, except for China is poor and less technology. It's better to compare with other developed countries like UK, Japan, Canada, Germany.

I checked health care in Cuba and made me so eek.

 

[darkdog]

This isn’t about inequality of results. It is about inequality of opportunity.

I don't see the difference. I will never have the opportunity to play in the NFL. That means Reggie Bush and I have inequality of opportunity. Any attempt to create an equality of opportunity would mean severely distorting the process of selection for NFL players in my favor and against his. That distortion would ruin the game and nobody would want to watch it. I'm for equality of process- same rules applied equally to everyone.

How does that apply to medical care? The fact that we don't see food as a "right", even though it is far more necessary for survival than medical care, makes it abundant for all to the point that the poor in this country have an obesity problem. Again, do you dispute my food insurance example?

Government intervention is a large reason why routine health care is so expensive. It doesn't need to be. However, as long as we have innovation, new technology, and new drugs, there will always be medical treatments that are expensive. If your life depends on something like that, then it's good to have catastrophic insurance.

Frequently Asked Questions about Health Insurance Reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check

The whole reason we're having this conversation is because the President has not been trustworthy on this issue. The White House is not a credible source. A more credible source is the Congressional Budget Office because it is more independent. They have disputed his claims that preventative medicine will save money (it won't), that this reform will solve the deficit problem (it will actually add $239 billion in the first 10 years and it only gets worse from there), and he'll be able to do it without increasing taxes for anyone making under $250,000 a year (wrong). Here's a good roundup: Fishy statements about health care reform|KeithHennessey.com

By the way, government programs rarely come in under the projections. Medicare was off by a factor of ten (but then, they didn't have the CBO back then). One exception was Medicare Part D which came in under its projections thanks to the price-lowering effect of competition. Despite what the White House says, this health care reform is an anti-competition reform. The people designing it are on the record saying they intend to drive private health insurance out of business.

 

[kokonut]

Liebling, we do not have the money. This is about a permanent program that will continue to expand and require more and more money. After all population does keep increasing. We are already at a running deficit of $1.8 trillion dollars already for this year. An unheard of amount.

Taxation will not solve this problem. Period. It won't help solve the deficit problem. Secondly, the govt continues to add more and more programs which means that costs to maintain those programs will go up dramatically. We don't have the money. The goes for when the govt continues to expand so will too the cost of maintaining and operating a much bigger govt. But we don't have money. We cannot keep borrowing money, either. We already owe China nearly $1 trillion dollars.

Simple. We do not have the money. How are we going to pay for an expanded govt and all those programs, and universal health insurance/care?

We don't have the money. Face the reality for once.

 

[darkdog]

You obligate to carry insurance on your car, isn´t it socialized? If it is, then don’t take a car and also don’t take public transport as well.

The car insurance industry isn't socialized. It's all private companies trying to make a profit. The state governments require drivers to have liability insurance if they want to drive. If I hit you and it's my fault, my liability insurance will cover your losses. I'm not required to have insurance that will cover my own losses (at least in Texas). The point is to protect other drivers on the road.

I saw on TV about US healthcare system at 2 days ago to yesterday. It amaze me that same people at town hall were being asked “Do you have Medicare?” Guess what? Almost all including same people who oppose “socialized health care” raise their hand and said that they are happy with Medicare. Some of all people said that they prefer Medicare over private health insurance companies. They said that they refused to pay tax for other people’s healthcare coverage… *speechless and :scratch:* Don’t they know where Medicare/Medicaid come from?

All those people spent their entire working lives being forced, whether they like it or not, to pay into Medicare and pay for other people's healthcare coverage. Now that they're finally eligible to take out from it, I can't blame them for doing so. I would much rather not be forced to invest in it and instead invest in my own account however I want to. But since I am forced to invest in it, then of course I'll take out of it when I'm eligible.

So what we have here is people who have been forced to pay into a system. Then, when they are eligible to take out of it, they're expected to be grateful to such a "benevolent" government providing them benefits. Then, if they oppose more boneheaded government ideas, they're derided for their ingratitude.

To my opinion, if anyone hates social system then is selfish and greedy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "social system" but I would point out that selfishness and greed are a part of human nature; no law can get rid of it. I have observed that those yelling "Greed!!!" the loudest are usually those who support policies that would use the force of the law to take money from those who earned it and shower it upon themselves. I've also noticed that politicians who yell "Greed!!!" the loudest are the ones that most want to take from tax payers and spend it according to their own whim. Greed is a constant in human nature, but we should most distrust those who have the power to take other people's money at the point of a gun.

Cuba healthcare is positive.
Cubans have good heart.

See what Foxrac says. This is the country that just ran out of toilet paper. If you speak out against the government in Cuba, you tend to be jailed and even tortured. The government controls what information about its health care system gets broadcast to the world. The reality is not nearly as pretty as the propaganda. It is an evil system of government and the first way to kill your credibility is to extol its virtues.

 

[kokonut]

Not just drivers on the road but anybody who get hit or injured as a result of a car accident will liability insurance cover it.

 

[Reba]

...See what Foxrac says. This is the country that just ran out of toilet paper. If you speak out against the government in Cuba, you tend to be jailed and even tortured. The government controls what information about its health care system gets broadcast to the world. The reality is not nearly as pretty as the propaganda. It is an evil system of government and the first way to kill your credibility is to extol its virtues.

You are correct.

I had friends who escaped Cuba. They told me awful stories of how the Cuban government medical system caused widespread ill health among the children. They suffered from malnutrition. They were given experimental inoculations, among other things.

The Cuban people aren't allowed to criticize their system.

If their system is so wonderful why do they risk their lives to escape it?

 

[kokonut]

Liebling, uncover your eyes about Cuba for once. Please!!

"Sicko" Presents False View of Cuba's Health System

 

[Barbaro]

You can check German doctor´s €120,000 a year at link, I post toward Darkdog.

The Frontline link says "netting $120,000 a year". You forgot to mention," per year on average, BEFORE taxes."

So, how much is it AFTER taxes?

 

[Jiro]

The Frontline link says "netting $120,000 a year". You forgot to mention," per year on average, BEFORE taxes."

So, how much is it AFTER taxes?

My dentist & doctor friends pays about 40% tax (or around) and a hefty amount amount for malpractice insurance. they're still in high debt with their medical school tuition... at least $200,000.... and they will continue to be under debt for next several years. It isn't cheap to have your own office either or to buy the practice from retiring doctors. That's why most of them START to have a "nice life" with nice mansion, Porsche, and Miami condo after when they're about 40+ years old. Couple of them signed up for military to avoid being in deep debt with tuition.

so Liebling - greed, you say? :roll:

 

[Reba]

See the example of healthcare card what I have.

gesundheitskarte - Google Bilder

How to prevent from fraud... Very simple is:

The doctor or Professor wrote their statement what kind of treatment I received by them in clinic, original including bill for my health insurance company, copy for themselves and me to read and then pass my family doctor.

I don't see how that prevents fraud. What prevents the doctor and patient from collusion in a scheme to get extra payments?

 

[Reba]

The Frontline link says "netting $120,000 a year". You forgot to mention," per year on average, BEFORE taxes."

So, how much is it AFTER taxes?

Yes, we need to compare actual take-home salaries after all taxes and overhead expenses (including education loan pay backs and malpractice insurance) are deducted. Also, how does each country's cost of living impact the "real money" numbers?

 

[Reba]

Of course, some doctors moonlight to supplement their income:

AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - Obama nominee Daschle has tax problems

 

[Liebling:-)))]

The Frontline link says "netting $120,000 a year". You forgot to mention," per year on average, BEFORE taxes."

So, how much is it AFTER taxes?

There is "German Wage Tax Calculator" in the link Germany Average Salary Income - Job Comparison , I provided to response your last question.

Here:

Lohn- und Einkommensteuerberechnung


Anyone earn from €4,000 Gross wage, they have free choice either with or without social security contribution (social insurances). If they decide for without social insurances then they have to look for private insurance. It´s their free decision.

Example:

A married doctor earn $10,000 per month, his wife is housewife then use Tax card III and 2 children.

If clinic doctor decide for Security Security Contribution (social insurances)

Gross salary $120,000 per year divided 12 into $10,000.-- per month

$10,000 covert into €7,085.65 per month.

Net after both taxes: - €1,539.30
Net after social insurances: : €939.06

Total net - € 4,607.29 per month.

Without social insurances -

Net after both taxes: - €1,613.03
Net after social insurance - €0,00

Total net - € 5,472.63 per month.

A married doctor earn €7,085.65 per month, his wife is Therapist, (under 60% wage difference between husband and wife) then use Tax card IV and 2 children for both husband and wife. If a person earn 60% more than its spouse then Tax card III for a person and Tax card V for spouse.

Tax card IV for both worker under 60% difference.


Net Tax after both taxes - 2,242.58
Net social insurances - remain same.

Clinic doctor earn net of total - € 3,904.01 per month but his wife earn few € less than her husband´s net earn.

His wife earn € 6,685.65 per month, with Tax IV and 2 children.

After both taxes - € 2,065.34
After social insurances - remain same.

Total of net wage: € 3, 681.25



REMIND: I compare my wage slip to the link of German Wage Tax Calculator including Tax Free Allowance €240 per month (due disablitiy - deafness). All of social insurances is accurate except both taxes.

"Disability Insurance" is an inaccurate word. It should be "Nursing care insurance", not Disability Insurance. Both taxes, I paid €75.10 less difference to German Wage Tax Calculator.

Yes, we need to compare actual take-home salaries after all taxes and overhead expenses (including education loan pay backs and malpractice insurance) are deducted. Also, how does each country's cost of living impact the "real money" numbers?

See above - you can play with German Wage Tax Calculator and read what Tax Category but you make sure that $ should be convert into € or € into $.

Lohn- und Einkommensteuerberechnung

I don't see how that prevents fraud. What prevents the doctor and patient from collusion in a scheme to get extra payments?

How?

Can you please educate me how you think it´s not prevent fraud?

 

[Reba]

... How?

Can you please educate me how you think it´s not prevent fraud?[/B]

How does a picture ID card prevent a doctor and patient from committing fraud? That is, how does an ID card prevent a doctor and patient from together lying about services rendered?

Perhaps you can educate me how an ID card prevents cheating?