Oral school

[deafbajagal]

Many hearing kids cannot even speak! The speech therapy sessions are overloaded in public schools.

How in the world are we to expect deaf kids to master perfect speech when many of their own hearing peers cannot?

Hmmm.

 

[kokonut]

It is amazing to those who view deafness as a disability. To those who don't, being able to communicate with full access and freely is very important.

It's also equally amazing that there are those willing to take SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) for money filed under "disability" yet at the same time say they don't have a disability?

 

[shel90]

It's also equally amazing that there are those willing to take SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) for money filed under "disability" yet at the same time say they don't have a disability?

How is that related to language and communication?

 

[dreama]

It's also equally amazing that there are those willing to take SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) for money filed under "disability" yet at the same time say they don't have a disability?

And many are victims of the oralist system.

Besides, it's really only the fact that benifit money isn't available to non disabled people that stops 'normal' people from claiming benifits which they do in other countries such as the UK.

The Deaf are only human. If you offer any kind of person a free ride in life their will be those who are willing to take you up on the matter. Shel isn't one of them. She's got a job.

FYI I do regard deafness as a disablity. A minor one that given the right tools AT THE RIGHT TIME shouldn't hold the deaf back from leading happy successful lives. But I see nothing wrong with being disabled.

 

[shel90]

And many are victims of the oralist system.

Besides, it's really only the fact that benifit money isn't available to non disabled people that stops 'normal' people from claiming benifits which they do in other countries such as the UK.

The Deaf are only human. If you offer any kind of person a free ride in life their will be those who are willing to take you up on the matter. Shel isn't one of them. She's got a job.

FYI I do regard deafness as a disablity. A minor one that given the right tools AT THE RIGHT TIME shouldn't hold the deaf back from leading happy successful lives. But I see nothing wrong with being disabled.

Thanks Dreama...however when I stated that comment about those who don't see deafness as a disability, I was referring to language and communication not the job sector. Deafness is not a disability preventing from one acquiring a language and being able to communicate freely but to those who see it that way would feel the way as knockout described. To those who don't see it as a disability know that one doesn't need a CI to be able to acquire and develop language and communicate with others.

 

[jillio]

How is that related to language and communication?

The only way I can connect it is that the oralists disable the deaf by restricting their language.

 

[kokonut]

that is lovely in a controlled, quiet classroom. wait until that child grows up and is exposed to uncontrolled, chaotic environment called "real world" - like company meeting, party, big social gatherings, etc. Let's see if the child with CI can listen without looking.

Never underestimate the power of what technology can do, especially when you have artificial intelligence (A.I.) to help do the job to wean out uneccesary noise and the ability to recognize human speech and bring it up above the din of background noise.

New hearing aid technology passes the restaurant noise test | Eureka! Science News

Oticon

CI corporations are also looking to use A.I. to do the same thing.
University of Florida Health News -- New software helps improve cochlear implant tuning process

It'll be a matter of time to be a regular part of any hearing aid and cochlear implant package. It won't be long with the way things are going. In fact, by the time those kids grow up and into the "real world" it wouldn't be far fetched that A.I. will already fully integrated as part of the new package by the time they reach adulthood. Besides, the "real world" also involves the ability to listen and communicate effectively with the rest of the population as well. Now, these "big social gatherings," company meetings, uncontrolled, chaotic environment are not absolute qualifiers or a "gauge" on how one successfully deal with the "real world." Believe me, I'm in it and I deal with this everyday...professionally. There are ways to address these things just as there are ways to work in a "real world" situation when you use sign language or other methods of communication.

 

[jillio]

Living life on maybes and pipe dreams. Much more productive to live in accordance with what is. AI cannot make up for deficiencies in cognitive function that are the result of language delay.

 

[kokonut]

How is that related to language and communication?

It's not. It's about accepting money under SSDI but at the same time say that their deafness is not a disability. It is. Just as blindness is a disability. But that doesn't mean they are helpless or unable to do things.

 

[kokonut]

And many are victims of the oralist system.

Besides, it's really only the fact that benifit money isn't available to non disabled people that stops 'normal' people from claiming benifits which they do in other countries such as the UK.

The Deaf are only human. If you offer any kind of person a free ride in life their will be those who are willing to take you up on the matter. Shel isn't one of them. She's got a job.

FYI I do regard deafness as a disablity. A minor one that given the right tools AT THE RIGHT TIME shouldn't hold the deaf back from leading happy successful lives. But I see nothing wrong with being disabled.

And many are not victims of the oralist system as well. Many saw great benefits in developing a speaking skill.That is a tool that could make a difference in life. Empowering a person goes a long way. I agree. Just as it's better to attain a goal of getting a good job in life and not be overly dependent on a welfare system.

 

[shel90]

Never underestimate the power of what technology can do, especially when you have artificial intelligence (A.I.) to help do the job to wean out uneccesary noise and the ability to recognize human speech and bring it up above the din of background noise.

New hearing aid technology passes the restaurant noise test | Eureka! Science News

Oticon

CI corporations are also looking to use A.I. to do the same thing.
University of Florida Health News -- New software helps improve cochlear implant tuning process

It'll be a matter of time to be a regular part of any hearing aid and cochlear implant package. It won't be long with the way things are going. In fact, by the time those kids grow up and into the "real world" it wouldn't be far fetched that A.I. will already fully integrated as part of the new package by the time they reach adulthood. Besides, the "real world" also involves the ability to listen and communicate effectively with the rest of the population as well. Now, these "big social gatherings," company meetings, uncontrolled, chaotic environment are not absolute qualifiers or a "gauge" on how one successfully deal with the "real world." Believe me, I'm in it and I deal with this everyday...professionally. There are ways to address these things just as there are ways to work in a "real world" situation when you use sign language or other methods of communication.

So by saying the "real world" the deaf world is a fake one? Very audist view in which limits so many deaf people. If people would stop that, then we would have a "real" world in which all deaf people would be fully included rather than as excluded the way they are. That's the root of the problems with society putting restricts on deaf people when it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[doubletrouble]

That just goes to prove my point. Your son has a CI. Your son has sign language. He has a full set of tools and it seems he is really benifiting from that.

He's not the kind of person I'm refering to. I'm talking strictly ORAL ONLY. People who were banned from using sign language like Shel was. Sometimes they fail and they are really very language deprived. They don't have problems reading and don't use proper english. Then oralists point at them and say they are the result of someone being exposed to sign language. That's what I object to since if They really had been exposed from day one, not after years of language delays, they wouldn't have been in the possition they are in.

Yes I agree that all children are bound to have some problems of ome kind or another. My brother once broke both his arms and suffered concoussion.

However Deaf children have specifically hearing related problems. Has your hearing daughter ever had to pull out of a subject completely because the teacher basically just spoke and pupils were expected to take notes without any support except an FM system? I was fine with teachers who wrote on the blackboard a lot and gave us books to read but if they didn't (and some didn't) I was completely at a loss.

No, I get what you are saying.... I agree that EVERY child should be exposed, but unfortuantely, (as in my case) the need for sign becomes less and less. No, my daughter hasn't had that happen and yes, I could definitely see that happening to some deaf people- but I have to be honest with you- come HELL or high water, my son will get EVERYTHING that he is entitled to- and he does. I don't ask for more, but I certainly will not accept less. I have gone to great lengths to make sure that the staff is well educated, gone to training PRIOR to working with him and that there is not only a FM system in place, but a note taker and well as all the lessons are tape recorded and typed for him. I'm not taking ANY chances with his right to equal access and if that even meant an interpreter, it would be done. I don't think it's fair for any child to be sitting in a classroom living in lalala land because he or she does not have the proper accomodations. I wish more parents were like me, but unfortunately, they aren't- and those are the children who do struggle ( I have seen it firsthand with a hh child in my son's class whose parents could care LESS what type of services the child gets. That really makes my blood boil. And to be honest, I really do wish that there was this "perfect" setting that FJ seems to be looking for. But unfortunately- there isn't so I do what I can to make sure he's on a level playing field with everyone.

I do also have to say, that I am in a district where I have seen the teachers go over and beyond the call of duty. It's truly amazing. My son has MISSED a ton of school this year from surgery and complications and his teacher (and NOT his TOD- that's another story and thank God it will not be her next year) has spent hours off the clock working with him to make sure that he did not fall behind. We just got back his social studies scores for the NY State test and he got a 4 (the highest level). I am grateful to the teacher to making sure that this child was educated as well as his hearing peers.

 

[kokonut]

So by saying the "real world" the deaf world is a fake one? Very audist view in which limits so many deaf people. If people would stop that, then we would have a "real" world in which all deaf people would be fully included rather than as excluded the way they are. That's the root of the problems with society putting restricts on deaf people when it doesn't have to be that way.

I didn't say that. Jiro said it. Please, do NOT put words into my mouth. I will appreciate that very much. The "real world" as Jiro puts it, and it's true, was in regard to a noisy environment such as at meetings, restaurants, and so forth for those who use their hearing to communicate and listen. Nothing "audist" about that. Just a fact. That is the real world when it comes to noise and communication.

 

[kokonut]

but.... isn't that a contradiction to your post above? If the hearing people have Minnesotian/cajun/southern/NY accents... what's wrong with deaf accent?

No. Monotone voice with little or no inflection isn't the same thing as the accent I'm talking about. The girl I heard spoke fine. She had all the inflection as with any other hearing peers and it was certainly not monotone at all. No contradiction at all.

 

[jillio]

No, I get what you are saying.... I agree that EVERY child should be exposed, but unfortuantely, (as in my case) the need for sign becomes less and less. No, my daughter hasn't had that happen and yes, I could definitely see that happening to some deaf people- but I have to be honest with you- come HELL or high water, my son will get EVERYTHING that he is entitled to- and he does. I don't ask for more, but I certainly will not accept less. I have gone to great lengths to make sure that the staff is well educated, gone to training PRIOR to working with him and that there is not only a FM system in place, but a note taker and well as all the lessons are tape recorded and typed for him. I'm not taking ANY chances with his right to equal access and if that even meant an interpreter, it would be done. I don't think it's fair for any child to be sitting in a classroom living in lalala land because he or she does not have the proper accomodations. I wish more parents were like me, but unfortunately, they aren't- and those are the children who do struggle ( I have seen it firsthand with a hh child in my son's class whose parents could care LESS what type of services the child gets. That really makes my blood boil. And to be honest, I really do wish that there was this "perfect" setting that FJ seems to be looking for. But unfortunately- there isn't so I do what I can to make sure he's on a level playing field with everyone.

I do also have to say, that I am in a district where I have seen the teachers go over and beyond the call of duty. It's truly amazing. My son has MISSED a ton of school this year from surgery and complications and his teacher (and NOT his TOD- that's another story and thank God it will not be her next year) has spent hours off the clock working with him to make sure that he did not fall behind. We just got back his social studies scores for the NY State test and he got a 4 (the highest level). I am grateful to the teacher to making sure that this child was educated as well as his hearing peers.

As an educational advocate, I most certainly wish there were more parents like you, as well. And I mean that most sincerely.

 

[jillio]

No. Monotone voice with little or no inflection isn't the same thing as the accent I'm talking about. The girl I heard spoke fine. She had all the inflection as with any other hearing peers and it was certainly not monotone at all. No contradiction at all.

Very few deaf people I know speak in a monotone. Monotone is not synonomous with "deaf accent."

 

[kokonut]

No, I get what you are saying.... I agree that EVERY child should be exposed, but unfortuantely, (as in my case) the need for sign becomes less and less. No, my daughter hasn't had that happen and yes, I could definitely see that happening to some deaf people- but I have to be honest with you- come HELL or high water, my son will get EVERYTHING that he is entitled to- and he does. I don't ask for more, but I certainly will not accept less. I have gone to great lengths to make sure that the staff is well educated, gone to training PRIOR to working with him and that there is not only a FM system in place, but a note taker and well as all the lessons are tape recorded and typed for him. I'm not taking ANY chances with his right to equal access and if that even meant an interpreter, it would be done. I don't think it's fair for any child to be sitting in a classroom living in lalala land because he or she does not have the proper accomodations. I wish more parents were like me, but unfortunately, they aren't- and those are the children who do struggle ( I have seen it firsthand with a hh child in my son's class whose parents could care LESS what type of services the child gets. That really makes my blood boil. And to be honest, I really do wish that there was this "perfect" setting that FJ seems to be looking for. But unfortunately- there isn't so I do what I can to make sure he's on a level playing field with everyone.

I do also have to say, that I am in a district where I have seen the teachers go over and beyond the call of duty. It's truly amazing. My son has MISSED a ton of school this year from surgery and complications and his teacher (and NOT his TOD- that's another story and thank God it will not be her next year) has spent hours off the clock working with him to make sure that he did not fall behind. We just got back his social studies scores for the NY State test and he got a 4 (the highest level). I am grateful to the teacher to making sure that this child was educated as well as his hearing peers.

You got the right mind. My mother had the same attitude as you when she was raising me. I pretty much went "solo" by the time I got into the 4th grade and attended regular public school (not mainstreamed) ever since. The key to this is early intervention. The earlier, the better since the brain is at a very plastic stage from birth to about 4 or 5 years old. It becomes a "sponge" and when exposed to sound and words they can adapt very quickly the spoken language and aural skill.

 

[jillio]

You got the right mind. My mother had the same attitude as you when she was raising me. I pretty much went "solo" by the time I got into the 4th grade and attended regular public school (not mainstreamed) ever since. The key to this is early intervention. The earlier, the better since the brain is at a very plastic stage from birth to about 4 or 5 years old. It becomes a "sponge" and when exposed to sound and words they can adapt very quickly the spoken language and aural skill.

The brain remains plastic througout the entire life cycle. Birth to age 3 are the ages for primary language acquisition.

 

[deafdyke]

Jillo, exactly.
Being technology dependant is just as bad as "being dependant on a 'terp"
(whatever that means)
Tecnology is not perfect. It will never create total and complete equality. Heck, I'm only hoh and while I like the fact that hearing aids give me some abilty to hear, they still don't give perfect equality.
doubletrouble........that's awesome that your son has done so well.....and I agree. If more parents were like you the oral vs sign debate wouldn't even exist.

 

[kokonut]

You got the right mind. My mother had the same attitude as you when she was raising me. I pretty much went "solo" by the time I got into the 4th grade and attended regular public school (not mainstreamed) ever since. The key to this is early intervention. The earlier, the better since the brain is at a very plastic stage from birth to about 4 or 5 years old. It becomes a "sponge" and when exposed to sound and words they can adapt very quickly the spoken language and aural skill.

The brain's plasticity in early development does act as a "sponge". It's the old "use or lose it" adage when it comes to this window of opportunity.

At the earliest stages of infancy, not only are all children biologically ready to learn from their stimulating environment and their interactions with other people, early brain development requires this. Healthy brain cells will perish if they fail to find a job to carry out during these critical early developmental periods. The lack of visual stimuli during infancy can permanently rob a healthy eye of its ability to see. If a child does not hear words by age of ten, he will have a difficult time learning to speak any language at all. Neurons that should have participated in the language processing, but instead find themselves lacking a role to play have only one of two options. They will be recruited to support another function with different neural circuit devoted to a contrasting specialty, or they will experience apoptosis, cell death. In brain terms, neuronal death occurs by way of a self-induced cell-suicide. In the case of language, the remaining brain cells that specialize in language processing are well-fed and well-nourished for most of one’s entire life. The others are gone and gone forever.

The ways in which the brain is stimulated (or not stimulated) in will determine the cortical complexity of any region in the brain, which is measured by the number of synapses and the nature of their connections to the various other parts of the brain. Brain cells constantly rearrange their one quadrillion-plus connections in response to extrinsic circumstances. All new learning, the external or internal stimuli that the brain encounters, promotes additional changes in the brain. In doing so, areas of the brain can adapt to any surroundings, quite different from other animals which operate solely by instinct and do so only within specialized limited environments. Human brains can adopt new functions based on the quantity and the quality of input received and processed by the brain.

ScienceMaster - Kenneth A. Wesson - Article_06

In short, it's easier to pick up things when you're a child than an adult. Adults continue to learn, of course but it's not the same thing when compared to a child's brain. Which is why late-deafened adults do well with hearing aids and cochlear implants than those who remain deaf all their life and not use the input sound and word on a daily basis to keep the brain "stimulated" which is why the high failure rates among deaf people who do not acquire the proper aural skill early on.