Debate over PSE/ASL...

[Bottesini]

That's in educational settings, but it's not a general statewide standard. It's also not strictly enforced by every school unless things have changed dramatically within the last 6-months. I know of one woman who earned an ASL/Deaf studies certificate and went on to find a job as an interpreter at an elementary school. She admitted that she realized she wasn't qualified to be an interpreter, but she needed the money. Unfortunately, in Ohio the only person who is able to file a complaint about the quality of interpreting provided is the client, which in this case is a deaf child who is unlikely to do so.

Jillio wants to know about her!! She will hunt her down!!!

 

[jillio]

Ohio State Interpreters working in pre-K-12 public schools are required to have a 5 yr associate license issued by the Ohio Dept of Education. To be eligible for a license, interpreters must be graduates of an Ohio interpreter degree program approved by ODE. There is no performance-based standard at this time. Licensed interpreters must earn 18 CEUs for renewal, with CEUs approved through Local Professional Development Committees at the school or district level. The full text of the licensure bill, which applies to all licensed educators, is available at Page Not Found There are also substitute licenses (for those who are contracted as subs) and temporary licenses (for those enrolled in a program leading to licensure). Interpreters from out of state may be able to apply for alternative licensure.
State Regulations for Interpreters

But that is what is scary. Graduation from a program in no way implies capability as a terp. There is no performance based testing prior to licensure. They can have graduated from a sub-standard program like the one at Ulster, and still be licensed because of the lack of performance based testing. I see some of the terps coming from some of these programs, and the level of competence infuriates me. And the school system, not understanding what is involved in terping simply accepts that license as proof of competence.:roll:

 

[jillio]

Jillio wants to know about her!! She will hunt her down!!!

Dang straight!

 

[Gobae]

Excellent post Paris!

Not all "ASL" programs are created equal. Unfortunately, the people overseeing the creation, listing, and authorization of these classes often don't know enough about real ASL to know if the teachers are meeting the course descriptions. OR the course descriptions are written in such a general way (eg "Sign Language") that they can teach ASL, SEE, PSE or any combination. Sometimes it's just hit or miss; I was lucky enough to take an excellent ASL program at the College of St. Rose in Albany, NY.

Between us, we use ASL, and I've learned more in a month, then over 3 years of studying, lol!

Absolutely!! No ASL class, no matter how good, comes close to what you will learn by interacting regularly with native signers.

 

[loml]

Excellent post Paris!

Not all "ASL" programs are created equal. Unfortunately, the people overseeing the creation, listing, and authorization of these classes often don't know enough about real ASL to know if the teachers are meeting the course descriptions. OR the course descriptions are written in such a general way (eg "Sign Language") that they can teach ASL, SEE, PSE or any combination. Sometimes it's just hit or miss; I was lucky enough to take an excellent ASL program at the College of St. Rose in Albany, NY.



Absolutely!! No ASL class, no matter how good, comes close to what you will learn by interacting regularly with native signers.

I agree with you about not all ASL programs are created equally. I am of the opinion that ASL should be taught by fluent ASL Deaf adults from the Deaf community.

There is so much marketing "out there" about teaching toddlers to adults ASL, this imo, is simply the unfortunate results of that same marketing.

 

[jillio]

I agree with you about not all ASL programs are created equally. I am of the opinion that ASL should be taught by fluent ASL Deaf adults from the Deaf community.

There is so much marketing "out there" about teaching toddlers to adults ASL, this imo, is simply the unfortunate results of that same marketing.

I think you are projecting the marketing that you do for the NCSA onto ITP's. The vast majority of ITP's are good to excellent programs, and are taught through accredited universities and colleges. This program sounds like one of those, however, that is simply attempting to add to their offered certificates in order to broaden the scope of programs offered to students. Prospective terp students need to make sure that their program is accredited, and prior to enrolling, they need to request numbers of grads who have attempted the certification exams and passed, and the number of grads that are employed in the field. Any accredited program has those numbers readily available.

 

[Mountain Man]

Also, if you can, check with members of the Deaf community or those who have regular contact with the community and see which local schools they recommend (if any) because they're going to know which schools the good signers come from.

I'm fortunate to have a very well regarded school in my city where I'm currently studying to be an interpreter. In fact, several of the professors are Deaf, which can be intimidating the first time you get one since you're terrified you're going to miss something that you'll be responsible for knowing later!

 

[jillio]

Also, if you can, check with members of the Deaf community or those who have regular contact with the community and see which local schools they recommend (if any) because they're going to know which schools the good signers come from.

I'm fortunate to have a very well regarded school in my city where I'm currently studying to be an interpreter. In fact, several of the professors are Deaf, which can be intimidating the first time you get one since you're terrified you're going to miss something that you'll be responsible for knowing later!

Excellent advise. Re: the bolded statement...a bit of cultural reversal, huh? That's actually a very valuable experience for a would-be terp. Gives you a bit of empathy for the experience of a deaf student in a hearing classroom.

 

[loml]

In fact, several of the professors are Deaf, which can be intimidating the first time you get one since you're terrified you're going to miss something that you'll be responsible for knowing later!

Mountain Man - The ASL component of the ITP program in my area taught solely in ASL with native fluent Deaf instructors. Definitely an full immersion approach! The instructors are wonderful and supportive. For many adults learning ASL is a interesting experience.

 

[ASLGAL]

Yes. Ohio has some distance to go to be specific.

Last year a class offering appeared in the paper. "Interpreter to teach ASL" . I did not recognize the name and asked the only certified interpreter in our area who this person was. Answer, a person who had a few quarters of ASL and got a job at MRDD.
I was shocked and angered. How many people plunked down their 25.00 or so thinking they were being instructed ASL by an interpreter?!?!

 

[shel90]

Yes. Ohio has some distance to go to be specific.

Last year a class offering appeared in the paper. "Interpreter to teach ASL" . I did not recognize the name and asked the only certified interpreter in our area who this person was. Answer, a person who had a few quarters of ASL and got a job at MRDD.
I was shocked and angered. How many people plunked down their 25.00 or so thinking they were being instructed ASL by an interpreter?!?!

I know of a case in Florida with the exact same situation. It is BS!

 

[Daredevel7]

Some people in my ASL class are trying to be interpreters. Apparently there is a HUGE lack of them in Northern Alabama. My ASL class teacher often has to go to Talladega (about 2 hours away) to interpret. Ever since the interpreter certificate (or license?) came into the picture (since there were too many poor quality terps), there's been a drastic reduction in them.

 

[jillio]

Yes. Ohio has some distance to go to be specific.

Last year a class offering appeared in the paper. "Interpreter to teach ASL" . I did not recognize the name and asked the only certified interpreter in our area who this person was. Answer, a person who had a few quarters of ASL and got a job at MRDD.
I was shocked and angered. How many people plunked down their 25.00 or so thinking they were being instructed ASL by an interpreter?!?!

Agreed. While we do have 2 excellent programs within an hour of where I live, both accredited and nationally recognized, there are still those that are sub par.

 

[Paris614]

Sorry, but I would need to see some evidence that these credits transferred as foreign language credits to a 4 year university, or even to an accreditied community college. Ulster does not even list their courses as ASL. They list them only as "sign language". That is not sufficient to qualify as foreign language credit. I get the impression that the people at Ulster are telling you things that aren't necessarily true just to keep the program open. If they don't have students enrolling, the program will close. And if they tell you the truth...that they are charging people for a useless certificate and not teaching them what they need to know to work in the field...no one will enroll.

Evidence? Uhhh...I had mine transfered? I had no problems

 

[sealhart]

In Defense of Ulster

In Defense of Ulster

Hello everyone!
I am brand new to Deaf Forum and was absolutely shocked to come upon the first article, a rather defamatory attack on the Certificate for Interpreting Program at Ulster County Community College, by a former co-student. I have been enrolled at Ulster on a part time basis, beginning with Sign 3 (Intermediate Sign 1), Sign 4 and Conversational Sign and Deaf Culture classes, (repeating the sign classes for credit or as an audit) for the last 3 years. I began signing about 30 years ago. I’ve had both hearing and Deaf Instructors and have taken many basic sign classes ranging from PSE to SEE to ASL. I’ve not taken a class in the last 15 years and decided to bring my signing ability to the next level when a friend asked me to interpret for her at a meeting.
Ulster has the only program in the immediate (Ulster/Dutchess county) area. I can’t even begin to describe what I have gained from the classes I’ve taken and learned from the knowledge and experience of the Professor for the Program. This Professor single-handedly developed the entire program beginning with just a couple of classes, and brought it to fruition.
There are some things which I feel I need to address in response to Paris614’s post on 4/28:
First of all, he (I assume Paris is a he) states it’s a “Certificate Program (not by the teacher’s choice, the college won’t hire any more teachers to move it up to an Associates Program)” My question is…. Is it the college “won’t” or “can’t” due to whatever reasons???
He also goes on to say that he learned new words out of a dictionary. I’d like to point out that the Sign 3, 4, and Conversational Sign classes learn approximately 1000 words plus a semester, given, most of those words are multiple meaning words and have different uses and signs depending on the context in which it is used. The “boring” dictionary is the Random House Webster – American Sign Language Dictionary by Elaine Costello, PhD – founder of the Gallaudette University Press.
I’d also like to know why Paris only received 70’s as from my conversations with classmates the average grades range from mid 80’s to 90’s?
In response to the local Deaf community. I’d like to know if the local Deaf Community members have ever talked to or sat in on any of the classes or presented their opinion to the instructor and on what are they basing their “less than desirable things to say about her” (the instructor) as Paris put it. I am sure she would welcome open dialog with any member of the Deaf Community who wishes. After all this is the language of the Deaf, not hearing.
As far as the ASL/English Interpreting program at Dutchess Community College is concerned. Paris states one reason it folded, I heard 3 entirely different reasons… Which if any of those reasons are accurate?
Because one student states that she loves PSE and that is her life, does that become a blanket representation which covers all the students in the program? I think not. Yes, PSE is easier to understand and use in general (if you leave out all the extraneous little words and follow the ASL model of signing the concept rather than SEE-1 sign – 1word model) But do not discount the efforts of the instructor to teach or the student’s to learn proper ASL (which is introduced in Sign 3 and further expanded upon in sign 4 and Conversational Sign) This instructor is well versed in the rigid requirements to pass the RID certification. Her main concern is to start the student along the path of preparation for potential future certification and this includes knowledge of MSE, PSE as well as ASL. You must be able to clearly interpret in the language the Deaf person uses, not the other way around.
I’d also like to comment that in my experience the best way to really learn ASL is to be immersed in its use. Although due to other commitments, I can only attend Wed. group at Barns & Noble certain times of the year, but when I did in the past there were more members of the Deaf community who attended and exclusively used ASL. This helped my understanding and I am sorry that it’s not being done now. But what can I say?
Jillio, please don’t feel sorry for the students at Ulster. They go on to become RID Certified Interpreters, Teachers of the Deaf, Speech and Language Pathologists and Audiologists. Or they simply walk away with a greater knowledge and appreciation of Deaf-World and an ability to communicate on some level, whereas they would not have, had they not enrolled in this Certificate Program. Thank You, for seeing that this is only a start… not an end. As you noted in one of your responses after reading the course description from Ulster.
Mountain Man noted that “more vocabulary isn’t necessarily better.” My question is? Without “more vocabulary would an interpreter be able to effectively interpret the contents of this response, had it been spoken if they only had a limited vocabulary?
Paris614, in my experience as a Teacher, Motorcycle RiderCoach, Swim Coach and Student, those who criticize a program the loudest are those who have the most difficulty acquiring the skill. Rather than asking for feedback, I believe what you’re really asking for is validation on what in my opinion is a limited picture or misconception on your part. I do hope you do well at the University of Southern Maine or Temple University. Where ever you go, I hope you do well, learn and grow.
I’m thinking this response will bring on a maelstrom of outcry. For that I apologize. I just feel we need to really appreciate what we have in this area and it is our individual responsibilities to gain what ever we can beyond what is obvious. If you want to excel you must go that extra mile.
Thank You for reading.

 

[jillio]

Evidence? Uhhh...I had mine transfered? I had no problems

You had them transferred as foreign language credits applied to a 4 year Bachelor degree, or you simply transferred to another IT certificate or associate's program?

 

[Dismal Shadow]

Sorry for going off-topic, from my understanding SEE stands for Signed Exact English, and ASL for "America Signed Language" but PSE? From what I can tell I speak SEE mixed with ASL, I mostly use english grammer for better understanding. Can someone sheld a light?

 

[jillio]

Sorry for going off-topic, from my understanding SEE stands for Signed Exact English, and ASL for "America Signed Language" but PSE? From what I can tell I speak SEE mixed with ASL, I mostly use english grammer for better understanding. Can someone sheld a light?

You are correct. PSE stands for Pigin Signed English, which is a combination of English and Signed English, but uses neither correct grammar, syntax, nor structure of either language.

And it isn't off topic at all, because the original discussion was based on the appropriateness of teaching PSE in classes designed for earning a certificate claiming fluency in ASL.

 

[sealhart]

certificate claiming fluency in ASL???

Where does it say in any of the course descriptions that the program at Ulster is a program for certifying ASL fluency??? This is not an ASL fluency program, nor it it an Interpreter Training Program. It is simply a program to start students on a path on being able to understand the needs of Deaf people and to help them to be able to communicate on some level. SEE is Signing Exact English, complete with all the word endings, 1 word/1 sign. Orginally designed to use in a grade school setting to help children who are deaf understand English gramatical rules, etc. This fell flat, to say the least and is usually not used, because #1 the kids had no idea what was being signed, (as it is not their language) and #2 It is impossible to keep up with the speaker if you are trying to sign every single word spoken. Pidgen Signed English uses English word order & ASL concepts without all the added in little words such as "the, is" etc. Manual Signed English fills in all those little extra words and follows more of a SEE model without the word endings, etc.

 

[jillio]

Where does it say in any of the course descriptions that the program at Ulster is a program for certifying ASL fluency??? This is not an ASL fluency program, nor it it an Interpreter Training Program. It is simply a program to start students on a path on being able to understand the needs of Deaf people and to help them to be able to communicate on some level. SEE is Signing Exact English, complete with all the word endings, 1 word/1 sign. Orginally designed to use in a grade school setting to help children who are deaf understand English gramatical rules, etc. This fell flat, to say the least and is usually not used, because #1 the kids had no idea what was being signed, (as it is not their language) and #2 It is impossible to keep up with the speaker if you are trying to sign every single word spoken. Pidgen Signed English uses English word order & ASL concepts without all the added in little words such as "the, is" etc. Manual Signed English fills in all those little extra words and follows more of a SEE model without the word endings, etc.

Sign Language Interpreting
32-33 Credit Certificate Program
http://www.alldeaf.com/sign-language-oralism/64718-debate-over-pse-asl-2.html#post1318067

Program Description
This 32-33-credit certificate program is a response to society's need to accommodate the special requirements of a disadvantaged population. The program will provide students with a basis upon which to build additional interpretation skills. Four classes in Sign Language, together with the Introduction to Deaf Culture and a field placement in sign language interpreting, are the key components of the program. Also required are courses in communications, English, psychology, and early childhood education.

The program can be completed in two semesters; it may also be pursued on a part-time basis. Students who have completed some of the liberal arts classes for another program will qualify for the certificate by taking the additional components of the Sign Language Interpreting program.

This certificate program is designed to fit within SUNY Ulster's Associate in Arts degree program in Liberal Arts and Sciences: Humanities and Social Science. The program can also serve as a foundation for further educational pursuits.

Employment Potential
The National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders reports that more than 28 million Americans have a hearing loss, and 80% of those affected have irreversible and permanent hearing damage. At least one million children are deaf or have a communication disorder. Many local community agencies and school systems are hiring sign language interpreters or contracting with agencies for interpreters. In addition, the skill of sign language interpreting adds to the credentials of job seekers in a number of fields that involve work with a diverse population.

The program description and employment potential desccription directely from Ulster's website are both worded in such a way as to imply qualification as an interpreter after completion of a 1 year certificate. Programs such as this do a disservice to the deaf/Deaf community as well as to the students enrolled in such a program.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that unless one is fluent in ASL, one is not qualified as an interpreter. One does not "interpret" into SEE or PSE. One transilerates into SEE or PSE, as SEE is simply a manual mode of English, and PSE is a combination of two languages. In order for "interpretation" to occur, one has to be intepreting from one recognized language into a different recognized language. When one transliterates into SEE or PSE, one is doing nothing more than tranliterating to a different mode of the same language.

Manually Signed English (more appropriately known as MCE, which is Manually Coded English) is a broad category that includes SEE1, SEE2, and CASE. Your last sentence describes CASE, not PSE.