Sighs! Read this ! - Page 4

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

What does writing and typing have to do with interpreters?

You don't need interpreters when doing it, so you're not depending on them.

And when I say "typing" I am referring to typing directly to the person, not through some sort of relay operator.

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

I can answer that for her.

It's the so called 'Big Deaf Industry Complex' (Big Deaf), a haphazard network of non and for-profit organizations, simply cashing in on the special needs of deaf people. Their existance relies heavily on deaf people depending on other people for many things including communication access services. Deaf independence hurts them and, therefore, it's in the Big Deaf interests that deaf people continue to depend on others.

Richard

^ Clueless....

loml · 06-12-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

You don't need interpreters when doing it, so you're not depending on them.

And when I say "typing" I am referring to typing directly to the person, not through some sort of relay operator.

Oral, written or typed......the point being independance.

loml · 06-12-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

I can answer that for her.

It's the so called 'Big Deaf Industry Complex' (Big Deaf), a haphazard network of non and for-profit organizations, simply cashing in on the special needs of deaf people. Their existance relies heavily on deaf people depending on other people for many things including communication access services. Deaf independence hurts them and, therefore, it's in the Big Deaf interests that deaf people continue to depend on others.

Richard

I believe that you have hit the nail on the head. TY!

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

I believe that you have hit the nail on the head. TY!

Déjà Vu? Seriously, once is enough.

loml · 06-12-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

Déjà Vu? Seriously, once is enough.

Not for some people.

rockdrummer · 06-12-2006, 01:25 PM

Ummmm .. what was this thread about again????

jazzy · 06-12-2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

Failure?

Look our oral clients find work less than a week after looking for it whilst the ASL deafs clients takes a lot longer. So where's the 'failure' in oralism?

Richard

Oralism failed me so do not expect all deaf can learn how to read lips 100 percent. I deal with customers all the time, sometime I unds them and sometime I don't. I met this deaf lady once who was an oralist, my husband does not even understand her at all. He understand me more than her when I speak.

Stop bs to us about them being independence. Deaf oralists still need interpter.

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Oralism failed me so do not expect all deaf can learn how to read lips 100 percent. I deal with customers all the time, sometime I unds them and sometime I don't. I met this deaf lady once who was an oralist, my husband does not even understand her at all. He understand me more than her when I speak.

Stop bs to us about them being independence. Deaf oralists still need interpter.

YES. Not all deaf people can learn to read lips perfectly. It depends on the person and the speaker. That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution".

What's wrong with signing and writing?

06-12-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

YES. Not all deaf people can learn to read lips perfectly. It depends on the person and the speaker. That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution".

What's wrong with signing and writing?

Too many teachers and principals at the oralism schools told their students at the end of their final school year.

"Your speeches are so marvelously. Do not stop your speech until they understand you.”

Yeah right

…

rockdrummer · 06-12-2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

YES. Not all deaf people can learn to read lips perfectly. It depends on the person and the speaker. That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution".

What's wrong with signing and writing?

What's wrong with a person choosing what works best for them individually. If oralism works for someone then then can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences. Same applies to other methods. The wrong thing to do is to say that any single method is best. Nobody can do that because each person will have different experiences with the various methods. A good stance is to say try them all and pick what works best for you.

gnulinuxman · 06-12-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

What's wrong with a person choosing what works best for them individually. If oralism works for someone then then can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences. Same applies to other methods. The wrong thing to do is to say that any single method is best. Nobody can do that because each person will have different experiences with the various methods. A good stance is to say try them all and pick what works best for you.

Methinks you need to reread my post.

jazzy · 06-13-2006, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

What's wrong with a person choosing what works best for them individually. If oralism works for someone then then can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences. Same applies to other methods. The wrong thing to do is to say that any single method is best. Nobody can do that because each person will have different experiences with the various methods. A good stance is to say try them all and pick what works best for you.

Full of BS, we did not choose it but we were forced to do it for u and our parents because they think we can learn to read lips and speak well alike few who were successful deaf oralist. Another misguide and fool many parents to believe their child can learn and do well alike them. In other words their parents are in denied that their deaf child is D E A F. And many of them did not know it can led their child into have life long emotion screw up that need some help with professional mental health care. I have seen too many sad stories around me. Enough to spread another lies by their deaf oralists who refuse to sign but isolate themselves from both world, hearing and deaf. They are not 100 percent independent.

jazzy · 06-13-2006, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

YES. Not all deaf people can learn to read lips perfectly. It depends on the person and the speaker. That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution".

What's wrong with signing and writing?

Me too, I am fed up with them for lying to us about it.

Think about it, can u draw a picture perfect? I am not that great at drawing. It goes same with people who happened to have gifts in art, sports, music, etc.. Think about it , only few deafies who happen to have those gifts in learn how to read lips and speak well (not perfect), only handful of them. It made me mad when they said we can learn and speak well. I went to oral school for few years, remember one year of child abuse in that classroom and I could not go to my mommy and tell her what was happen in that classroom because I did not have that language develop yet. They teach us how to talk and read their lips more than learn in classroom to do math, writing, science, etc.. Delay me for few years and now it is too late. I am still far behind in hearing world.

When I finally learned sign language, it freed me from anger and isolated. I can not believe them, they try to tell us about how wonderful oralism is. What a lie.

I love sign language and many people are so fanastic with sign language. I have meet so many people out there who sign to me everyday. They love it and eager to talk to me.

Yes I agree there is nothing wrong with writing paper and sign language. U know it is easy for me to use hand gesture to spanish speaking customers (about 50 percents) in my community than me trying speak english to them cuz they do not understand english.

Maria · 06-13-2006, 06:00 AM

I grew up to be independent. I communicate with hearin' people by writin' or typin' thru computer ( email ). I noticed that sometimes hearin' people don't like to write. Some of them have noo patient and forced me to read their lips like if, they are talkin' to me without writin'. Gee - I have to keep sayin' that " I can't hear " with my finger pointin' to my right ear. I was thinkin' to myself .. " well, if they don't like to write, then how come they have this job ? "

It applies to many jobs and, they will question deaf persons if, they can read their lips. Why is it soo important to read their lips, if a deaf person can't read their lips to understand ? If, the hearin' people want the deaf person to understand, then WRITE. A deaf person should ask a hearin' person, if they can READ hand in sign language. That's what I ask them so many times when they ask me about lipreadin'.

rockdrummer · 06-13-2006, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnulinuxman

Methinks you need to reread my post.

No need. I read it and understand it perfectly. Let me try to clearify. My point was based on your comment

Quote:

That is why I get so mad when people keep going on and on and on about how oralism is the "perfect solution".

For those people that say it's a perfect solution it probably is for them which is why I said

Quote:

If oralism works for someone then they can use it and they have the right to share their positive experiences

I am not sure (even after re-reading your post) where the mis-understanding is. Care to elaborate?

rockdrummer · 06-13-2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Full of BS, we did not choose it but we were forced to do it for u and our parents because they think we can learn to read lips and speak well alike few who were successful deaf oralist. Another misguide and fool many parents to believe their child can learn and do well alike them. In other words their parents are in denied that their deaf child is D E A F. And many of them did not know it can led their child into have life long emotion screw up that need some help with professional mental health care. I have seen too many sad stories around me. Enough to spread another lies by their deaf oralists who refuse to sign but isolate themselves from both world, hearing and deaf. They are not 100 percent independent.

I am sorry Jazzy, I was not talking about anybody that was forced to do anything. I said "what's wrong with a person choosing what is best for them". As far as forcing someone to learn something I am not getting a clear picture of what you mean. Were you tied to a chair with toothpicks in your eyes to keep them open? Or is this just much like the education I attended? I don't quite understand. I was sent to school as a child and I had no choice on what I was going to be taught or how it was taught. In your view, was I forced. I am just curious about your thoughts on that. I will say that if you were forced by some sort of physical abuse, then that is wrong! I hope that was not the case for you. Lets say this is a perfect world and you are the one that can choose how a deaf child will be taught. What would you do? How would you teach the child to communicate and with what methods?
Thank you!!

SxyPorkie · 06-13-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I am sorry Jazzy, I was not talking about anybody that was forced to do anything. I said "what's wrong with a person choosing what is best for them". As far as forcing someone to learn something I am not getting a clear picture of what you mean. Were you tied to a chair with toothpicks in your eyes to keep them open? Or is this just much like the education I attended? I don't quite understand. I was sent to school as a child and I had no choice on what I was going to be taught or how it was taught. In your view, was I forced. I am just curious about your thoughts on that. I will say that if you were forced by some sort of physical abuse, then that is wrong! I hope that was not the case for you. Lets say this is a perfect world and you are the one that can choose how a deaf child will be taught. What would you do? How would you teach the child to communicate and with what methods?
Thank you!!

Jazzy was right... i had met lots of oral deaf.. they were forced to read lips and speak .. no sign langauges were allowed!!

all of my friends who are oral deaf were very bitter... they finally learn the sign language,,, they are happier than ever,,, but they are bitter at their parents,, doctors,,, teachers,,,, they learned about educations real late.. they must learn to read lip and speak firstly...

I can understand Jazzy going through this BS...

Thanks.
SxyPorkie

loml · 06-13-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SxyPorkie

Jazzy was right... i had met lots of oral deaf.. they were forced to read lips and speak .. no sign langauges were allowed!!

all of my friends who are oral deaf were very bitter... they finally learn the sign language,,, they are happier than ever,,, but they are bitter at their parents,, doctors,,, teachers,,,, they learned about educations real late.. they must learn to read lip and speak firstly...

I can understand Jazzy going through this BS...

Thanks.
SxyPorkie

SxyPorkie,

That was then.... this is now. I am sure at the time parents did what the "professionals" said was the "right" appraoch to use. ASL is an awesome communication tool, but rarely alone makes for literacy in English.

Children must have all the tools they need. Parents are not told all the options available to them, at least not in my area. Professioals who have spent their lives working with "oral" education are not likely to change their ways now. I know a few who I would surely love to see retire.

I believe that if communication, language and inclusion could happen quickly for doh children, the stress level in the home would drop.

ismi · 06-13-2006, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SxyPorkie

all of my friends who are oral deaf were very bitter... they finally learn the sign language,,, they are happier than ever,,, but they are bitter at their parents,, doctors,,, teachers,,,, they learned about educations real late.. they must learn to read lip and speak firstly...

And my experience is quite different - most of the oral deaf I know are quite happy with the oral training they got, and many of them are only now learning to sign (and that as a hobby, not as an intended primary mode of communication). The plural of anecdote is not data.

SxyPorkie · 06-14-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

SxyPorkie,

That was then.... this is now. I am sure at the time parents did what the "professionals" said was the "right" appraoch to use. ASL is an awesome communication tool, but rarely alone makes for literacy in English.

Children must have all the tools they need. Parents are not told all the options available to them, at least not in my area. Professioals who have spent their lives working with "oral" education are not likely to change their ways now. I know a few who I would surely love to see retire.

I believe that if communication, language and inclusion could happen quickly for doh children, the stress level in the home would drop.

It is not really oral deafies s fault... yes it was their heaing parents and also their doctors... all of my oral deafies told me that they were not allowed to learn ASL,,,

What more.. my daughter was an interpreter at elemetary schools ... she told me that most of deaf children's parents did not want their children to learn the sign langauges at all.. the parents wanted them to learn to speak,, no sign langauges allowed!!

It is still going on in the elementary schools with deaf children.. their parents are still against ASL. they expect that their children only can learn to speak...

Thanks!!
SxyPorkie

jillio · 06-20-2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

If there is an audist attitude here it is YOU!

SEE is used as a tool to improve literacy skills, skills sorely lacking with ASL.

I find this very bazzar.... why is it that you wish future generations of deaf/hoh continue to be dependant on other people to communicate effective with non-ASLers?

Maybe should't comment, but will. SEE is not used to promote literacy skills. It is the hearing world's invention, because of such trouble to learn ASL. First tried Oralsim--did not work! Then come up with SEE. cued speech, all other ways to make English visable. English is not manual language. It is different language. Use ASL to teach Eglish, then literacy improves. When Deaf schools used ASL to teach English, Deaf students much more educated. You wouldn't change Spanish to teach English to Spanish people.
Why change ASL just to teach English? SEE, Pidgin, all other forms of English sign are inventions of the hearing world and the hearing world's attempt to tell Deaf how they are supposed to be, and what language they are supposed to use. And, by the way--I'm hearing. I went into Deaf community when my son was 2 years old, and said, please teach me your language so I can communicate with my son. Please show him what it is to be a Deaf adult. My son went to Deaf school with Deaf teachers. Because that is as much his family as I am. That is what he needs to be happy with himself. I am still learning much about ASL and Deaf communtiy after 18 years. But what they have taught me is much more valuable than anything the hearing 'experts" tried to tell me my son needed. And by the way, Sweetmind--love your signature. So true!

Sweetmind · 06-20-2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Maybe should't comment, but will. SEE is not used to promote literacy skills. It is the hearing world's invention, because of such trouble to learn ASL. First tried Oralsim--did not work! Then come up with SEE. cued speech, all other ways to make English visable. English is not manual language. It is different language. Use ASL to teach Eglish, then literacy improves. When Deaf schools used ASL to teach English, Deaf students much more educated. You wouldn't change Spanish to teach English to Spanish people.
Why change ASL just to teach English? SEE, Pidgin, all other forms of English sign are inventions of the hearing world and the hearing world's attempt to tell Deaf how they are supposed to be, and what language they are supposed to use. And, by the way--I'm hearing. I went into Deaf community when my son was 2 years old, and said, please teach me your language so I can communicate with my son. Please show him what it is to be a Deaf adult. My son went to Deaf school with Deaf teachers. Because that is as much his family as I am. That is what he needs to be happy with himself. I am still learning much about ASL and Deaf communtiy after 18 years. But what they have taught me is much more valuable than anything the hearing 'experts" tried to tell me my son needed. And by the way, Sweetmind--love your signature. So true!

I definitely agree with ya and thank you for the compliment about my signature. I can see you understood what it s really means.

I m so glad you did it for your deaf child's rights with all your heart. That real makes my day.

I thank you for your sharing with us all along. It s good to hear from someone like you as a hearing parent.

Have a wonderful day!

Sweetmind

Today
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06-12-2006, 01:25 PM	#97 (permalink)
rockdrummer Weapon of Mass Percussion Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicago suburbs Posts: 2,346	Ummmm .. what was this thread about again????

06-13-2006, 06:00 AM	#105 (permalink)
Maria Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: ALASKA Posts: 7,701	I grew up to be independent. I communicate with hearin' people by writin' or typin' thru computer ( email ). I noticed that sometimes hearin' people don't like to write. Some of them have noo patient and forced me to read their lips like if, they are talkin' to me without writin'. Gee - I have to keep sayin' that " I can't hear " with my finger pointin' to my right ear. I was thinkin' to myself .. " well, if they don't like to write, then how come they have this job ? " It applies to many jobs and, they will question deaf persons if, they can read their lips. Why is it soo important to read their lips, if a deaf person can't read their lips to understand ? If, the hearin' people want the deaf person to understand, then WRITE. A deaf person should ask a hearin' person, if they can READ hand in sign language. That's what I ask them so many times when they ask me about lipreadin'.

06-21-2006, 10:50 AM	#114 (permalink)
SxyPorkie SxyPorkie