Why - Why the Medical Society constantly pressure on the Parents?

[jackiesolorzano]

Yea...but the problem is California doesnt allow BiBi education, right?

*Seems like this thread got soo way off topic so Kalista, let me know if u want me to stay on topic or is this ok? Thanks

I really do not know if BiBi is allowed or not but if it works as well as you say it does and I am not doubting you because they do not know enough of your program to doubt you. What I know is that the TC programs are not working here do why couldn't one school for the deaf contact another one share the successes.

So tell me how does your bibi program work. I have never observed a bibi program.

 

[Buffalo]

No Flip you are not insulting me you have a right to your opinion and you do not state in an insulting manner. I do disagree with you. I do not think that my children would be more successful if then have both languages. My son is in honors classes and reads a grade level above his grade. My daughter has a 3.3 GPA and is in 11th grade. She passed the high school exit exam first time she took it. There is a high school TC program close by our home. Last year they had 9 high school deaf kids graduate and only 1 passed this test and this person who passed took it 3 times my daughter on the first time she passed it. All of these students were exposed to both languages.

The school is TC, not Bi-Bi. Do the teachers sign SEE or PSE? If a teacher is poor at sign language, it can upset the students. It had happened to my class with a new teacher.
Shel90 had pointed out that it is hard for one to talk two languages at the same time as ASL is so different from English. To me, it is little like "pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time".

 

[shel90]

The school is TC, not Bi-Bi. Do the teachers sign SEE or PSE? If a teacher is poor at sign language, it can upset the students. It had happened to my class with a new teacher.
Shel90 had pointed out that it is hard for one to talk two languages at the same time as ASL is so different from English. To me, it is little like "pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time".[/QUOTE]


Good analogy! That's what it is like if I try to sign and talk at the same time so I cant imagine trying to do that while teaching complex lessons..it would be like I needed a 3rd arm to pat my butt while patting my head and rubbing my stomach. I just couldnt do it and it wouldnt be fair to the students.

 

[shel90]

I really do not know if BiBi is allowed or not but if it works as well as you say it does and I am not doubting you because they do not know enough of your program to doubt you. What I know is that the TC programs are not working here do why couldn't one school for the deaf contact another one share the successes.

So tell me how does your bibi program work. I have never observed a bibi program.

Ooops..I missed your post.

Unlike a TC program, we stick to 2 languages. Use pure ASL and pure English and keep both languages separate.

The most important part of our education is family education with the babies and toddlers. That's when they are at their most critical years for language development so they are exposed to both languages but separately. Yes, spoken language is exposed for those who have the innate ability to develop oral language skills.

That way, the children enter elementary school with a strong foundation in language or languages (if they pick up English orally) and be ready to tackle on the academic content especially in literacy.

My program's biggest problem is that so many of our students come to our program after 6 or 7 years old and up and so language delayed so even if they learn ASL, their cognitive process/thinking has been impaired. Most of the time, they dont really master ASL fully even though they are around it due to the problems with processing information. Now, can u imagine trying to teach them to tackle on reading and writing? It gets very very frustrating which is why I am against the oral-only approach (no offense to u personally).

 

[jillio]

Can I ask what are they comparing these students to? Students with strong and moderate English language skills would score higher on literacy tests than students with weak English language skills.

The key to understanding Freethinker's post is L1 and L2 language.

 

[jillio]

Funny...I see the opposite here in MD.

80% of St. Rita graduates go on to post secondary education. There aren't many mainsteam schools that can boast of this average. And that would include hearing students.

 

[jillio]

If the doctors are too busy, they should establish a new position or a proper referral for those who get cochlear implants.

Couldn't agree with you more vampy. IMO, allimplant centers should employ a liason from the deaf community.

 

[jillio]

Yea...but the problem is California doesnt allow BiBi education, right?

*Seems like this thread got soo way off topic so Kalista, let me know if u want me to stay on topic or is this ok? Thanks

**nodding agreement** It is not a matter of inservice, but of state board of ed.

 

[loml]

They were comparing students with strong and moderate ASL skills with students with weak ASL skills on literacy skills. There is a strong corrleation between ASL and English literacy at least during the early stages of language development. The theory is that these students are bridging their prior knowledge using their more accessible visual language (ASL) with less accessible auditory language (English). These students are connecting the concpets in ASL with English. I know there are people who disagree with this idea.

FreeThinker - If a child has been provided a fluent and accurate model of language then the child can/does learn that language, visually/auditorialy/kinesthtically and through touch. This holds true for ASL and English via cueing.

What correlations are you referring to? Is the child DOD, CODA, DOH, post lingual, prelingual, aided not aided? What age group are we talking here?

You post is very vague, could you expland more please.

 

[jillio]

This is in accordance of the research by Strong and Prinz (1997). They studied 160 deaf students in schools. They found that students with strong and moderate ASL skills scored higher on literacy skills than students with weak ASL skills. This reinforces the inderdependence of two languages. Dr. Jim Cummins (1984) notes that students with stronger first language base would master second language better than students with weak first langage placed in second language environment. So I feel it is cruical for babies to be exposed in two language for maximum language development.

Additional support for your post:

DeLana, M., Gentry, M.A., & Andrews, J. (2007). The efficacy of ASL/English bilingual education: Considering public schools. American Annals of the Deaf. 152(1). pp73-87.

Evans, C. (2004). Literacy development in deaf students: Case studies in bilingual teaching and learning. American Annals of the Deaf 149(1). pp17-27.

 

[flip]

No Flip you are not insulting me you have a right to your opinion and you do not state in an insulting manner. I do disagree with you. I do not think that my children would be more successful if then have both languages. My son is in honors classes and reads a grade level above his grade. My daughter has a 3.3 GPA and is in 11th grade. She passed the high school exit exam first time she took it. There is a high school TC program close by our home. Last year they had 9 high school deaf kids graduate and only 1 passed this test and this person who passed took it 3 times my daughter on the first time she passed it. All of these students were exposed to both languages.

Good we are not insulting each other It might surprise you, as you never have visited a bi-bi school, and does not seem to be aware of the problem with TC schools used as a waste dump for oral failures, lowering the literacy rates, but a lot of bilingual deaf people have and is doing far better than your children. I think only people with low expectations toward deaf people can be impressed by deaf students reading one grade above, it's perhaps the case with oralism?

 

[shel90]

80% of St. Rita graduates go on to post secondary education. There aren't many mainsteam schools that can boast of this average. And that would include hearing students.

Guess what! U are going to love this...I got in touch with one of my former classmates from Gallaudet. I forgot that he went to St. Rita and he is now pursuing his PhD at a regular college. He was born in Peru..moved here at the age of 10 knowing no ASL and no English..went to St. Ritas and then transferred to MSSD. He is quadlingual...reads writes Spanish, English, Peruvain sign language and ASL.

This guy is an inspiration and he has no HAs nor CIs. He is a professor at a college teaching English now.

 

[Kalista]

Guess what! U are going to love this...I got in touch with one of my former classmates from Gallaudet. I forgot that he went to St. Rita and he is now pursuing his PhD at a regular college. He was born in Peru..moved here at the age of 10 knowing no ASL and no English..went to St. Ritas and then transferred to MSSD. He is quadlingual...reads writes Spanish, English, Peruvain sign language and ASL.

This guy is an inspiration and he has no HAs nor CIs. He is a professor at a college teaching English now.

Wish, many other hearing parents look into this side. We can do anything if we go to Deaf school with Deaf teachers who are fluently in ASL to make the Deaf children become more motivation in their academcy and excellent attendance the classes daily.

The main reason why many of the hearing parents prefer their Deaf children go to Deaf schools that teaches deaf children would not do it is because they do not have enough staffs and teachers know how to using oral method themselves.

This is exactly what is going on with majority of the schools that teaches deaf children, many teachers usually mispronounce signs and have “broken” visual sign language (not using ASL) and also use oral speech/lipread that causes misunderstandings about half of the time and causes teachers to get fed up repeating the same thing all the time.

Deaf adults who are educational, strongly encoruage hearing parents to become more involve with Deaf Community. Their sign language will pick up quickly for their Deaf children's sake communication effectively. Unforunately, they choice hearing professional doctors, audoilogist,etc.. So now we can see that we really do have a problem. What should we do about it?

There are far too many hearing professionals and parents fighting viciously to protect the oralism. It will never happen that they open their mind to change to bilingual programs. It would take years for deaf schools or deaf programs . There are so many resisting against oral method. How to solve these problems? I wonder about that, how could the Deaf children go on suffering as usual. When they become older kids then choice ASL method and involve into Deaf Culture. Parents will become upset with their Deaf children for not using cochlear implant or hearing aid. The sounds does not help them for a better speak or write English.

Visual in ASL is more primary language than sit on the chair for many hours how to speak with speech thearpist. It does not help their education successful. It just wastes alot of time!!! There are many parents right now that are desperated to have their Deaf children to be in respectable education settings and they need us to work on this issue now.

Now you see why many oralist got so fed up and started learning ASL later in life.

 

[Drew's Dad]

The sounds does not help them for a better speak [.]

You've said this several times. It seems to me that you're saying people who use CI's to gain access to sound are not able to speak any better than they could without the access to sound. Is this what you mean?

 

[jillio]

Good we are not insulting each other It might surprise you, as you never have visited a bi-bi school, and does not seem to be aware of the problem with TC schools used as a waste dump for oral failures, lowering the literacy rates, but a lot of bilingual deaf people have and is doing far better than your children. I think only people with low expectations toward deaf people can be impressed by deaf students reading one grade above, it's perhaps the case with oralism?

No insults intenteded, but there are numerous problems with using grade level scoring to determine either placement or achievement. Anyone who is familiar with testing and scoring will cite the same problems I do with grade level equivilancy scores. One of trhe biggest problems with using this type of testing is that, inherent in the scoring process is the fact that 50% of the students must fall below, and 50% must fall above, the score equivalent to grade level. Additionally, stating that a student reads at a particular grade level is deceptive. It does not equate to being able to work across the curriculum at that grade level. All a grade level score indicates is that the student was able to read at the same level as another student in that particular grade, not that they are actually on grade level, or able to do work at that grade level. This is not my opionion, but the facts of the particular system, and is well known among those responsibile for administration, scoring, and intepretation of academic testing.

 

[jillio]

Guess what! U are going to love this...I got in touch with one of my former classmates from Gallaudet. I forgot that he went to St. Rita and he is now pursuing his PhD at a regular college. He was born in Peru..moved here at the age of 10 knowing no ASL and no English..went to St. Ritas and then transferred to MSSD. He is quadlingual...reads writes Spanish, English, Peruvain sign language and ASL.

This guy is an inspiration and he has no HAs nor CIs. He is a professor at a college teaching English now.

Thanks for sharing that with me. St. Rita has a very diverse student population. They have always drawn students from the international population. They also have a large percentage of multi-handicapped students, which makes their 80% success rate in turning out college ready graduates even more impressive.

 

[Kalista]

You've said this several times. It seems to me that you're saying people who use CI's to gain access to sound are not able to speak any better than they could without the access to sound. Is this what you mean?

yes correct, my hearing son heard those children who have cochlear implants. Their pronounce sound like Deaf voice. None of accurately pronouce like hearing people's speak. When those Deaf children become older and realize other hearing people do not understand their speak. They removal their hearing aids and cochlear implants. What a waste of their time to learn how to speak? Go through surgerical to put device in their skulls, they do not deserve it. They born as healthy and adorable babies. They did not ask for device in their heads. Why can't they learn ASL and go to Deaf school instead of learn how to speak ... Parents do not want to face the reality into the Deaf World due to ashame. Many parents want their Deaf children hearing normal be like them.

Just for example - children born with brown eyes, take them to the hospital to replacement blue eyes; want their color eyes be like the parents. Same concept Deaf fixed hearing normal like the parents. Obviously, parents do not accept for who they are. *sigh* Cochlear implants are not considering medical reason. Deaf is natural as born. Why can't the parents accept their Deaf children?

 

[flip]

No insults intenteded, but there are numerous problems with using grade level scoring to determine either placement or achievement. Anyone who is familiar with testing and scoring will cite the same problems I do with grade level equivilancy scores. One of trhe biggest problems with using this type of testing is that, inherent in the scoring process is the fact that 50% of the students must fall below, and 50% must fall above, the score equivalent to grade level. Additionally, stating that a student reads at a particular grade level is deceptive. It does not equate to being able to work across the curriculum at that grade level. All a grade level score indicates is that the student was able to read at the same level as another student in that particular grade, not that they are actually on grade level, or able to do work at that grade level. This is not my opionion, but the facts of the particular system, and is well known among those responsibile for administration, scoring, and intepretation of academic testing.

Ok, I didn't knew that, and aren't that familar with tests. What I know, is that students reading below or over grades don't tell me much, no matter if they are bilingual, oral or whatever. The reason is as you said, it does not equate to beeing able to work across the cirriculum. I know of techically good readers that are horrible telling a story on their own, for example.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

80% of St. Rita graduates go on to post secondary education. There aren't many mainsteam schools that can boast of this average. And that would include hearing students.

I am not sure where you are from but at my children's high school 95% of the students go on to secondary schools, this why my children are going to our local high school unlike another high school where they deaf students their rate for their deaf students are 40%.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Couldn't agree with you more vampy. IMO, allimplant centers should employ a liason from the deaf community.

I think that would be a good idea but the problem is there isn't enough funds so what I suggest is that people from the Deaf community contact implant centers and donate their time. I would be more then happy to give yous the names of the implant centers in CA.