TV channel to broadcast assisted suicide

[Byrdie714]

you are talking about 2 different type of people. People who are terminally illed and People who are severely depressed. now you're talking about terminally-illed patients with severe depression? make up your mind.

She is trying to tie the two together and the logic isn't working...:roll:

Afterall if an individual is terminally ill and has seen two doctors for psychological testing to end their life--obviously isn't depressed.

If an individual is severely depressed and wants to commit suicide--they would've gone ahead and done it.

 

[jillio]

She is trying to tie the two together and the logic isn't working...:roll:

Afterall if an individual is terminally ill and has seen two doctors for psychological testing to end their life--obviously isn't depressed.

If an individual is severely depressed and wants to commit suicide--they would've gone ahead and done it.

Exactly. People commit suicide on a daily basis from depression and other forms of mental illness. They do not ask a dr for assistance in doing so.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

dreama has a good point, after all it isn't as if the terminally ill people are usually happy go lucky. However, dreama, let me ask you something. If one were terminally ill and in severe pain and requested a PAS, but they were turned down because "s/he seems too depressed and therefore can cloud his/her mind"? That's cruelty to me. Are you saying only happy terminally ill people can do PAS?

This is probably true to an extent. There is a grief process that one goes through when faced with a terminal illness. However, a good hospice program looks after the person's emotional as well as physical needs at the end of life. Very rarely does a terminally ill person end their life due to depression itself. Usually, the person can't stand the unrelenting pain that goes along with alot of terminal illnesses like cancer. This is why people want to control how and under what circumstances they shall die.

 

[Jiro]

She is trying to tie the two together and the logic isn't working...:roll:

Afterall if an individual is terminally ill and has seen two doctors for psychological testing to end their life--obviously isn't depressed.

If an individual is severely depressed and wants to commit suicide--they would've gone ahead and done it.

This is probably true to an extent. There is a grief process that one goes through when faced with a terminal illness. However, a good hospice program looks after the person's emotional as well as physical needs at the end of life. Very rarely does a terminally ill person end their life due to depression itself. Usually, the person can't stand the unrelenting pain that goes along with alot of terminal illnesses like cancer. This is why people want to control how and under what circumstances they shall die.

exactly!! Dreama - look at the news and you will see COUNTLESS cases of suicides because of severe depression. For ie -

1. committing suicide in front of webcam
2. suicide by cop
3. kill him/herself
4. drug overdose
5. going on massacre before committing suicide (remember VT shooting?)
6. many more to list

Point is - a person with severe depression can move at their will and they do not suffer from the pain like terminally-illed patient. A terminally-illed patient CANNOT commit suicide on his/her own as listed above because he/she is TOO sick to move.

Can you imagine being stuck on bed for rest of your life and not being able to move at all because of mind-numbing pain? naturally - you develop a severe depression from being subjected to this inhumane condition for so long.

so why do you want that person to live like that? let him/her die with dignity and happiness. i don't want my loved one to die from pain and I don't want to let him/her die with the last memory of being in pain.

 

[dreama]

you are talking about 2 different type of people. People who are terminally illed and People who are severely depressed. now you're talking about terminally-illed patients with severe depression? make up your mind.

I'm talking about disabled and terminally ill people who suffer from depression. These two things can happen in the same person. You are the one who is trying to seperate the two issues. Not me.

 

[dreama]

dreama has a good point, after all it isn't as if the terminally ill people are usually happy go lucky. However, dreama, let me ask you something. If one were terminally ill and in severe pain and requested a PAS, but they were turned down because "s/he seems too depressed and therefore can cloud his/her mind"? That's cruelty to me. Are you saying only happy terminally ill people can do PAS?

Depends what you mean by 'terminal'. If she had several years to go I'd suggest she got put on stronger pain releif medicines. I'd make sure that they were as strong as they needed to be. Also that she was getting councilling and also she was getting all the support she needed before considering anything else.

My dad was with both my grandmother (his mother) and my mom when they were terminally ill. He still doesn't think that Euthanasia should be legal in England. Since they get pain relief to help with suffering. If someone was in too much pain then it would just be because they weren't getting enough medicines although he aslo said mum was in pain but wanted to continue with life. Only she needed a high dose of painreleif and it gave her a heart attack.

 

[Jiro]

I'm talking about disabled and terminally ill people who suffer from depression. These two things can happen in the same person. You are the one who is trying to seperate the two issues. Not me.

No.... it is YOU who are combining both irrelevant issues into one. I don't know what you're fretting about. Do you not understand PAS regulation? You cannot get assisted suicide if your reason is depression.

what's so hard to understand about PAS regulation?

 

[dreama]

exactly!! Dreama - look at the news and you will see COUNTLESS cases of suicides because of severe depression. For ie -

1. committing suicide in front of webcam
2. suicide by cop
3. kill him/herself
4. drug overdose
5. going on massacre before committing suicide (remember VT shooting?)
6. many more to list

Point is - a person with severe depression can move at their will and they do not suffer from the pain like terminally-illed patient. A terminally-illed patient CANNOT commit suicide on his/her own as listed above because he/she is TOO sick to move.

Can you imagine being stuck on bed for rest of your life and not being able to move at all because of mind-numbing pain? naturally - you develop a severe depression from being subjected to this inhumane condition for so long.

so why do you want that person to live like that? let him/her die with dignity and happiness. i don't want my loved one to die from pain and I don't want to let him/her die with the last memory of being in pain.

The person doesn't have to live like that. They can be given strong pain releif and they won't have to live like that at all.

Mostly these people who want to die aren't on sufficent pain releif for their needs. Often they are not getting enough services to keep what's left of their mind occupied.

You seem just to give the worse case scinario of someone who is dying and in pain but cases of people wanting and getting euthanasia do not always fall into this catagree. Sometimes they could have had a chance for a better life but didn't get it. They got death instead.

And for someone who is just depressed, being able to kill themselves without 'help' is a tragedy. I don't consider it a good thing at all.

 

[Jiro]

Depends what you mean by 'terminal'. If she had several years to go I'd suggest she got put on stronger pain releif medicines. I'd make sure that they were as strong as they needed to be. Also that she was getting councilling and also she was getting all the support she needed before considering anything else.

My dad was with both my grandmother (his mother) and my mom when they were terminally ill. He still doesn't think that Euthanasia should be legal in England. Since they get pain relief to help with suffering. If someone was in too much pain then it would just be because they weren't getting enough medicines although he aslo said mum was in pain but wanted to continue with life. Only she needed a high dose of painreleif and it gave her a heart attack.

ok...... no.... no...... no..... you... do.... not.... understand....

It's not because of getting enough medicines... it's because there is no known medicine that exists to stop the pain of terminal illness without killing one. The best the doctor can do is to make pain BEARABLE but the pain is still there and it's eating them away. The only way to stop the excruciating pain is to overdose on pain medication.

again - why do you want this person who MAY have several years left to suffer for that long? Do you not understand that if you're on powerful pain medication - you cannot do anything? You're basically knocked out 24/7 unless that person wants to have a conversation just for a moment and obviously - that person will be experiencing an incredibly painful moment until he gets knocked out again. What's the point of living like that for several years? you cannot function normally nor do anything you like while on powerful pain medication. They will be moaning, rolling, moaning, rolling on their beds for rest of their life. That, my friend, is a crime against humanity in my book. It's a hypocrisy and naivety.

You've already just proved my point that your grandma got a heart attack from high dosage of pain medication. Do you not understand that after suffering from heart attack especially at that age and condition... you are usually significantly weaker and/or most likely have a permanent brain damage?

this is disgusting. i want my loved one to die with the last memory of happiness..... not excruciating pain.

 

[Jiro]

The person doesn't have to live like that. They can be given strong pain releif and they won't have to live like that at all.

Mostly these people who want to die aren't on sufficent pain releif for their needs. Often they are not getting enough services to keep what's left of their mind occupied.

You seem just to give the worse case scinario of someone who is dying and in pain but cases of people wanting and getting euthanasia do not always fall into this catagree. Sometimes they could have had a chance for a better life but didn't get it. They got death instead.

And for someone who is just depressed, being able to kill themselves without 'help' is a tragedy. I don't consider it a good thing at all.

Again - you do not understand the PAS regulation. Please educate yourself on that. You frequently make it sounds like they can easily get assisted suicide. Mind you - depression is NOT a qualified cause for assisted suicide. Please stop coming up with any scenarios or possibilities that are already disqualified under PAS system. There's a reason why it's STRICTLY regulated.

I guess your answer is pain medication for all. Believe me - it's not noble nor beautiful to die naturally like that.

 

[Hear Again]

The best the doctor can do is to make pain BEARABLE but the pain is still there and it's eating them away.

this is true. when my mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, her oncologist put her on 5 different potent pain meds. my mother was constantly in pain (and experienced other symptoms related to her cancer), so all her doctor could do was to make her as comfortable as possible. i'll never forget the time shortly after my mother's diagnosis when i was in denial and asked her, "mother, why don't you join a support group so you can talk to other cancer survivors?" her response to me was, "i have a terminal illness. i'm going to die. talking to others isn't going to change that." she was right. during the 5 months following her diagnosis, i saw her slowly slip away emotionally and physically. a strong woman who was active and loved to cook eventually turned into someone who could no longer walk or prepare her own meals. it was sad to see my mother go through this transition. months and weeks before her death, my mother's pain meds were her lifeline. if she accidentally missed a dose, she suffered excrutiating pain. she was also placed on anti-nausea meds to help relieve the vomiting spells she had, but even that symptom was pronounced and problematic. it's easy to say one should do "a," "b" or "c," but when someone is dealing with a terminal illness, it's so much more complicated than that.

 

[Hear Again]

so why do you want that person to live like that? let him/her die with dignity and happiness. i don't want my loved one to die from pain and I don't want to let him/her die with the last memory of being in pain.

exactly. if PAS had been available to my mother, i'm sure she would have taken it. in her case, she vomited blood (sorry for being so graphic) one evening and i called 911 so she could be hospitalized. doctors administered *very* high levels of potent pain and anti-nausea meds which allowed her to "be herself" for 24 hours before she died. fortunately for her, she passed away in her sleep (the way she always wanted to leave this earth) and didn't die in pain or with a lack of dignity.

 

[Hear Again]

some people with severe depression are able to recover whereas people with terminal illness are not. please, let's not confuse the two because they are completely different.

 

[dreama]

Again - you do not understand the PAS regulation. Please educate yourself on that. You frequently make it sounds like they can easily get assisted suicide. Mind you - depression is NOT a qualified cause for assisted suicide. Please stop coming up with any scenarios or possibilities that are already disqualified under PAS system. There's a reason why it's STRICTLY regulated.

I guess your answer is pain medication for all. Believe me - it's not noble nor beautiful to die naturally like that.

Excuse me but I know more on this subject then YOU Do. I'm quite Educated. I understand EVERYTHING. I just don't believe the clap trap that the pro euthasia people spew out.

Do you think that intelligent conversation is EVERYTHING. Well it isn't. Life is worth living under any cercumstances since nobody really knows what death is like.

So I understand perfectly well what is happening. More then you do in fact.

 

[dreama]

by the way it wasn't my grandmother who had a heart attack from High dose of medicine. It was my mother. She had cancer that meant pain releif was neccessary.

People keep talking about the terminally ill in pain but they aren't the only ones to be considered for Euthanasia. People try to simplify matters when they don't acnolege that people can suffer both from depression AND a severe physical ailment.

This woman who wants Euthanasia to be legal in England said if she was an animal people would have put her down long ago. Yes she actually uses the term 'put down'. That person doesn't need Euthanasia. She needs to see a councillor to help her. We certainly don't want people to be 'put down' like animals are. That would be a very big step backwards.

 

[Grummer]

I've heard of cases where people have been euthanised who were depressed and just so happened to have a severe disability too so in states where Euthanasia is legal that DOES happen.

If someone is VERY near to death. If they are in a lot of pain, then I think exceptions can be made in these cases if the patient wishes. However, this is just an exception I'd make for the most severe cases. I think that anyone who wants to kill themselves should just be given councilling and rehabilitation since that's what they NEED. Since that is what non disabled people would get. So why should disabled people be any differant.

normally for someone who is terminally ill, they are not pain due to massive doses of painkillers, and i would hazard a bet that even in those places where euthanasia is illegal, morphine overdoses is subtlely practiced to a point that in post-mortem examination would only find smidgen traces of collasped lungs caused by opiod depression, so small that it is neligible. I'm sure this does happen. I can understand Dreamas stance , however I also understand that since we ARE over populated, as bad as this seems I kind of do agree enth the need to legalise euthanasia but as for the regulation quabbles i dunno, to me its just another oppurtunity for greedy lawyers and policy makers to take up duty to collect silly money for doctoring documents that bore no resemblance to reality except Law. in addition even if it was legal i doubt everyone is going to take the route, while i think legalising is a good thing for it remove the criminal element in mercy killing which is not out of spite but out of kindness to help the dying to suffer no more if they so wish.

 

[Jiro]

Excuse me but I know more on this subject then YOU Do. I'm quite Educated. I understand EVERYTHING. I just don't believe the clap trap that the pro euthasia people spew out.

Do you think that intelligent conversation is EVERYTHING. Well it isn't. Life is worth living under any cercumstances since nobody really knows what death is like.

So I understand perfectly well what is happening. More then you do in fact.

so if you are quite educated on this, then you wouldn't conjure up the scenarios that are already disqualified under PAS system. You should know depression does not qualify for PAS. Yes you do have experience with this but you are not thinking of this issue logically. You are emotionally-charged on it. The only people who know this subject better than us is the one who is suffering from it.

1. I must ask if you may - What were your mother's and grandmother's wish when they were in a great pain? did they express their desires to be terminated?

2. and please help me understand this - you said that life is worth living under any circumstance so I have to ask you. How is it worth living if you are drugged out and rotting away?

3. I don't understand what you mean about nobody not knowing what death is like. You just die. simple. life goes on.

 

[dreama]

"euthanasia and assisted suicide gives society a great way to divest itself of people that they see as a burden while patting themselves on the back as being compassionate and noble".

Not Dead Yet News & Commentary: New Study in BMJ Indicates People with Clinical Depression Getting Lethal Prescriptions in Oregon

Drake-Hastings Ctr Article

NCD - Assisted Suicide: A Disability Perspective

I suggest JIRO should follow his own advice and enlighten himself by reading these articles. He might learn something from it.

 

[dreama]

1. I must ask if you may - What were your mother's and grandmother's wish when they were in a great pain? did they express their desires to be terminated?

I'm afraid I don't know what my grandmother's desires were.

My Dad tells me that mother definately wanted to remain amongst the living despite the pain that her cancer caused.

2. and please help me understand this - you said that life is worth living under any circumstance so I have to ask you. How is it worth living if you are drugged out and rotting away?

Humans are adaptable. Even lifestyles that some may consider harsh are preferable to death. Thinking isn't everything. There is always things that can be enjoyed by visits from loved relatives that make life worth living.

Often it is not the illness or the pain that make life intolerable but people's attitudes. This is likely to get worse if Euthanisa was legal. You would get families presurizing their sick relatives to die so they could inherit their money.

3. I don't understand what you mean about nobody not knowing what death is like. You just die. simple. life goes on.

That is just your interpretation of death. Some people's interpretation is differant. I think that people get reincarnated after they die. But of course who knows what really happens. It's unknown. So we we think it is merciful to send people into the unknown without knowing what happens next.

Your interpretation that life simply stops would make me want to cling on to life more firmly then ever since I don't want to die.

 

[Byrdie714]

I'm afraid I don't know what my grandmother's desires were.

My Dad tells me that mother definately wanted to remain amongst the living despite the pain that her cancer caused.



Humans are adaptable. Even lifestyles that some may consider harsh are preferable to death. Thinking isn't everything. There is always things that can be enjoyed by visits from loved relatives that make life worth living.

Often it is not the illness or the pain that make life intolerable but people's attitudes. This is likely to get worse if Euthanisa was legal. You would get families presurizing their sick relatives to die so they could inherit their money.



That is just your interpretation of death. Some people's interpretation is differant. I think that people get reincarnated after they die. But of course who knows what really happens. It's unknown. So we we think it is merciful to send people into the unknown without knowing what happens next.

Your interpretation that life simply stops would make me want to cling on to life more firmly then ever since I don't want to die.

Guess what? You are going to die.

Whatever lives--dies. Whatever dies--is reborned.

All things come to an end.