Right-to-work vs Unions

[Grummer]

i not really got a right to comment on american union rules,but i was grateful to be in a union when i went to work....
we did have time when unions could bring down goverments and did,we also had a time under thatcher goverments when coal miners were fighting to keep mines open,we saw police lines awful fights.the union lost coal mines closed and many many men over the country lost jobs the towns became sad dead towns,they only ones working were doctors with waiting rooms of depressed men who saw no future,and sadly were right...just outsiders observation.

thats an interesting observation too, its werid that they wanted to work in dangerous condition WHILE there is no future, thats the thing about power, and control from soceirty, the reserve army of labour with no education ...and now we have this dumbing down going in in education,...why??
not too hard to see why....its control pure and simple, ...controlling the population to have the 'ideal' layers of potential worker in each feilds...dumb people do labour...medium smart do administraion...smart do the inventing and lab work...and so on...creepy and indeed seemingly over simplifed..but hey this is shows even ordinary minded people CAN get to understand why the world is like it is...well in [my] theory it helps...but real sociology is more complex, and more philosophical...read Marx, Weber and Durkheim...and you'd see what I mean...and especially try find somethin about 'the rise of captialism' many materials available, and in there its really insightful...but sometimes difficult to read...
so my way is, for the today's world is, Sociology needs to be more fucking honest about what's dumbing down, and what does it really means...
my point is, sociology isnt for the 'smart people'and oh, they're trying to get rid of it, because they dont want critical thinking people around...its already happening right here, my lecturers are telling me this!, even right now they are closing down 'Education" faculty and moving to rid BACHELOR OF EDUCATION!!!! a very crazy and dangerous move indeed...it means those who have Bachelor of Education are going to dwindle and dissappear of the social map.
the university took over the Technical institute (which is right next door to Teachers College!, and they moved a whole lot of Philosophy/Education senior lecturers, professors there and now deciding to rid them...right now 16 academic staffs' job in there are on the firing line..."in process of reviews' they all are forced to submit 'recommendation letters' in bid to to fight and stay in jobs...if this goes, whos going to actually supervise and share /debate on happenings in the real education world? who is going to be there to help organise the foundation and maintain the cohensiveness of education in society? governments shouldnt!!, this heighten the risk of becoming a facist state.

 

[diehardbiker]

Nothing unions can do about coal mining. Not even coal mine owners can do much. I just learn that the clean air act back in 1970 signed by Richard Nixon that requires all coal burning plants across the United States to meet stringent clean emission requirements with their coal burning furnace by end of 2014! Because of this law, it makes coal burning very expensive, now they are opt for Natural Gas switch over which ultimate killed coal mining jobs. Of course, Coal miners blamed on Obama where Obama can't do anything about the law that was signed back in 1970's. Anyone in coal business are going to lose regardless.

Hey, I could use Coal in my woodstove but with the idea of requirement on cleaning chimney right after end of winter season makes me stick with wood logs.

i not really got a right to comment on american union rules,but i was grateful to be in a union when i went to work....
we did have time when unions could bring down goverments and did,we also had a time under thatcher goverments when coal miners were fighting to keep mines open,we saw police lines awful fights.the union lost coal mines closed and many many men over the country lost jobs the towns became sad dead towns,they only ones working were doctors with waiting rooms of depressed men who saw no future,and sadly were right...just outsiders observation.

 

[Foxrac]

Sure, but they won't last long because paper is going to show up in executive level, and going to fire those management in favor of lousy employees as after they would questioning management for poor performance. Have it happened? Yes, I have already witness in my working life and they usually don't happen fast but until executive finds a person that is qualified for replacing managers then the ball gets rolling. But with unions, executives can't do much just because it is contract work and thats big difference.

If store report is good, despite about lousy/lazy employees, especially in store that where I worked so there isn't much for executives to do anything, except for any workers filed the complaint against managers. During 4 years of employment, only one manager at our store got fired due to cruelty/abuse against employees.

 

[diehardbiker]

Still, non-unionized is far better anyway.

Just accept the fact that Union is on brink of death. There is no point in having union anyway.

If you want better life, forget the union workers. We could have organized customers unions. If we have that, it will send CEO to their knees. They can't afford screw with customers. For example if cable subscribers decided to organize and boycott their service, that cable operator is going to cry and accept what customers wanted. This is not going to happen, for a reason... Customers thinks only for themselves not the society level, this puts business owners in winning spot.

Just like what Grummer said, if those who are in labour is smart enough, they would have figured a better way around. Sadly, it is not happening because of their OWN greedy (ME ME ME ME attitude).

If store report is good, despite about lousy/lazy employees, especially in store that where I worked so there isn't much for executives to do anything, except for any workers filed the complaint against managers. During 4 years of employment, only one manager at our store got fired due to cruelty/abuse against employees.

 

[Foxrac]

Still, non-unionized is far better anyway.

Just accept the fact that Union is on brink of death. There is no point in having union anyway.

If you want better life, forget the union workers. We could have organized customers unions. If we have that, it will send CEO to their knees. They can't afford screw with customers. For example if cable subscribers decided to organize and boycott their service, that cable operator is going to cry and accept what customers wanted. This is not going to happen, for a reason... Customers thinks only for themselves not the society level, this puts business owners in winning spot.

Just like what Grummer said, if those who are in labour is smart enough, they would have figured a better way around. Sadly, it is not happening because of their OWN greedy (ME ME ME ME attitude).

It doesn't matter about whichever nonunion or union workplaces are better so it is all about depending at overall management of company.

I don't see any fact about union is on brink of death, so decline of union membership doesn't means they are on brink of death because union membership can be up and down over year, also we had a biggest decline in union membership from 1920's to 1930's, also the recession hurt the union.

The unionization isn't my factor when seeking for employment.

 

[Foxrac]

Still, non-unionized is far better anyway.

Just accept the fact that Union is on brink of death. There is no point in having union anyway.

If you want better life, forget the union workers. We could have organized customers unions. If we have that, it will send CEO to their knees. They can't afford screw with customers. For example if cable subscribers decided to organize and boycott their service, that cable operator is going to cry and accept what customers wanted. This is not going to happen, for a reason... Customers thinks only for themselves not the society level, this puts business owners in winning spot.

Just like what Grummer said, if those who are in labour is smart enough, they would have figured a better way around. Sadly, it is not happening because of their OWN greedy (ME ME ME ME attitude).

Also, I have idea for you.

If you are looking for complete eradicate (removal) of unions so you have to find a politician who will pass the law to make illegal to form the union and order all workplaces to be totally union-free, also repeal Wagner Act. The unions will be totally gone but unsure about skyrocketing of inmates in prisons for break the law by making illegal form and recruitment the workers.

The right to work law is ineffective to eradicate of unions, but it does weaken a little for while, however the nonunion workers are still exposed to unions, also lowering the wage, pension and benefits because of reduce in dues.

I know that idea about eradicate of unions are nearly impossible.

 

[Foxrac]

Yes, it's happening in the neighborhoods where TCS's family lives. Empty and devalued houses on their street.

Michigan is victim of financial crisis, recession and bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler.

 

[VacationGuy234]

Right-to-work is all about quality of workmanship and competitions. So meaning, if your not union, your better doing good job or your terminated, which result better products for customers.

Actually, it has nothing to do with quality so much as whether you can be forced to join a union. Quality, is a personal choice. By the same token, I'm not sure an employer could exclude a union worker if he could fill that job position. Furthermore, both union and non-union worker would have to benefit from the union contracts which I think would include pay(but I could be wrong).

 

[Foxrac]

Actually, it has nothing to do with quality so much as whether you can be forced to join a union. Quality, is a personal choice. By the same token, I'm not sure an employer could exclude a union worker if he could fill that job position. Furthermore, both union and non-union worker would have to benefit from the union contracts which I think would include pay(but I could be wrong).

I'm not sure if it is illegal for employer to ask a question about unions to employee, especially in nonunion workplaces.

You are correct about right to work law: It is about not required to pay union due or join the union, however union is required to represent all workers, regardless on status.

I found a right to work law in Alabama.

The right of persons to work shall not be denied or abridged on account of membership or nonmembership in any labor union or labor organization.

Any agreement/combination between employer and labor union or organization denying nonmembers right to work is prohibited; labor organizations cannot require membership, abstention, or payment of union dues.

Harmed person may recover such damages sustained by reason of denial or deprivation of employment.

25-7-30, et seq.

Alabama Right to Work Laws - FindLaw

 

[Jiro]

Nothing unions can do about coal mining. Not even coal mine owners can do much. I just learn that the clean air act back in 1970 signed by Richard Nixon that requires all coal burning plants across the United States to meet stringent clean emission requirements with their coal burning furnace by end of 2014! Because of this law, it makes coal burning very expensive, now they are opt for Natural Gas switch over which ultimate killed coal mining jobs. Of course, Coal miners blamed on Obama where Obama can't do anything about the law that was signed back in 1970's. Anyone in coal business are going to lose regardless.

Hey, I could use Coal in my woodstove but with the idea of requirement on cleaning chimney right after end of winter season makes me stick with wood logs.

I'm glad we're doing away with coal business.

do you have any idea what coal mining and coal power plants at mass production level can do to you and environment?

 

[Foxrac]

I'm glad we're doing away with coal business.

do you have any idea what coal mining and coal power plants at mass production level can do to you and environment?

Horrible pollution, dirty smogs in big cities like NYC?

 

[Jiro]

Horrible pollution, dirty smogs in big cities like NYC?

no. smog in NYC is not from coal.

but no I'm not overly concerned about dirty air quality caused by coal. it's much more destructive than that. trichloroethylene. water contamination. acid rain. birth defects. cancers. black lungs. extremely destructive environmental disasters.

the worst part? all these damages... it's either unrecoverable or it would take centuries to heal up. that's why England and Ireland were stripped bear of natural resources and are barren in a larger part. it's a pity they depend on other countries for resources. we certainly do not want that to happen to us. but for America... the coal town and surrounding towns are basically uninhabitable.

reminds me of Centralia town in PA. freaky.

 

[Grummer]

OH, jiro,you forgot, AMERICA DO rely on other countries for resources, in fact they are the biggest importers of resources, nameely oil and labour...and many other things that i can not list, meat? dairy products?, fertilisers, and not to mention consumer goods like cars, home electronics, clothes, medicine, and specialist equipments, (think hospital instruments and computer parts for Apple computer products and the list goes on and on...
sorry you're mistakened here but I do realise there are some (but its very minor) plots for oil extraction and refinements but its really a moot point there.

only difference is, USA has large land mass that actually conceals this reality (but it is not entirely true, it is well known California state is smog state now...)

 

[Foxrac]

OH, jiro,you forgot, AMERICA DO rely on other countries for resources, in fact they are the biggest importers of resources, nameely oil and labour...and many other things that i can not list, meat? dairy products?, fertilisers, and not to mention consumer goods like cars, home electronics, clothes, medicine, and specialist equipments, (think hospital instruments and computer parts for Apple computer products and the list goes on and on...
sorry you're mistakened here but I do realise there are some (but its very minor) plots for oil extraction and refinements but its really a moot point there.

only difference is, USA has large land mass that actually conceals this reality (but it is not entirely true, it is well known California state is smog state now...)

I think you used based on old information.

Most recent, updated information: U.S. to become biggest oil producer and energy independent - Nov. 12, 2012

 

[Jiro]

OH, jiro,you forgot, AMERICA DO rely on other countries for resources, in fact they are the biggest importers of resources, nameely oil and labour...and many other things that i can not list, meat? dairy products?, fertilisers, and not to mention consumer goods like cars, home electronics, clothes, medicine, and specialist equipments, (think hospital instruments and computer parts for Apple computer products and the list goes on and on...
sorry you're mistakened here but I do realise there are some (but its very minor) plots for oil extraction and refinements but its really a moot point there.

only difference is, USA has large land mass that actually conceals this reality (but it is not entirely true, it is well known California state is smog state now...)

yes but the point is - if absolutely necessary, we can be self-sufficient since we already have plenty of woods, oil, natural gas, etc. England and Ireland have nearly none or none at all. They are completely dependent on other countries for resources.

we are not necessary dependent on other countries for resources. it's mainly for mass production and profits.

 

[Foxrac]

no. smog in NYC is not from coal.

but no I'm not overly concerned about dirty air quality caused by coal. it's much more destructive than that. trichloroethylene. water contamination. acid rain. birth defects. cancers. black lungs. extremely destructive environmental disasters.

the worst part? all these damages... it's either unrecoverable or it would take centuries to heal up. that's why England and Ireland were stripped bear of natural resources and are barren in a larger part. it's a pity they depend on other countries for resources. we certainly do not want that to happen to us. but for America... the coal town and surrounding towns are basically uninhabitable.

reminds me of Centralia town in PA. freaky.

That's very interesting about trichloroethylene.

It looks like we should understand about how importance is EPA.

Yup, I remember about Centralia in PA and it is really scary town, also it is ghost town too.

 

[ambrosia]

I agree. Most people do not know what it means...

EDIT: Actually, that would include me. It does not mean what I thought it means:

A right-to-work law is a statute in the United States of America that prohibits union security agreements, or agreements between labor unions and employers that govern the extent to which an established union can require employees' membership, payment of union dues, or fees as a condition of employment, either before or after hiring. "Right-to-work" laws do not, as the short phrase might suggest, aim to provide a general guarantee of employment to people seeking work, but rather are a government regulation of the contractual agreements between employers and labor unions that prevents them from excluding non-union workers.

I thought it was the right for both union and non-union work, but I was wrong.

What you bolded, that's it exactly. I'm in Myrtle Beach, a tourist town dominated by the service industry, there isn't exactly a lot of jobs here that would even be unionized. They just think it means they have the right to work. Duh, of course you have the right to work, nowhere in the country do you not have the "right" to work.

 

[Foxrac]

What you bolded, that's it exactly. I'm in Myrtle Beach, a tourist town dominated by the service industry, there isn't exactly a lot of jobs here that would even be unionized. They just think it means they have the right to work. Duh, of course you have the right to work, nowhere in the country do you not have the "right" to work.

Yup, right to work law = ban on union security clause, aka union shop.

It don't means you have RIGHT to get a job, like tell Walmart - I need job now because I have RIGHT to get a job.

 

[Foxrac]

‘Right to work’: The wrong answer for Michigan’s economy | Economic Policy Institute

 

[deafdrummer]

This thread has totally proven that we ARE SCREWED. The way we're going to go is whichever side wins. I promise, everyone, when it's my time to go, I will do everything I can to free everyone from this hell on Earth.

Back to the woods I return
Away from the illusion that is civilization
A mirage that never was
There is no need to fear hell
Because you're already there
It is hell on earth