Pro-life advocate murdered in Michigan

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yizuman said:
Who said about punishing her? Was it her fault she got raped? NO!

Blame the perp that raped her, not the mother or the unborn child. They didn't do anything wrong.

The perp who raped her is the one that did the wrong, the perp should be made to suffer the consequences for what he has done.

Why punish the unborn child for being a byproduct of that rape?

Yiz
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by abolishing the abortion law, you are punishing her because she has to relive the memory of rape every minute of her life. Do you think it's fair for this child to be subjected to abuse, depression, etc. when growing up? Do you think it's fair for this 14 years old girl to be subjected to severe depression that may be likely lead to suicide or destructive behavior?

what if she wants to have an abortion? would you say NO to her?
 
jillio said:
And the consequences are suffered by an innocent 14 year old child that is already living and breathing on this earth and has been made to suffer unimaginable pain and humiliation.

So you would punish her even more for something that is totally beyond her control.
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I'm sure there are decades worth of documented cases and studies about children being born as the result of rape. Could you tell me what USUALLY happened to children as they grow up and what they're likely to encounter later on, including mothers?
 
Jiro said:
I'm sure there are decades worth of documented cases and studies about children being born as the result of rape. Could you tell me what happened to children as they grow up and what they're likely to encounter later on, including mothers?
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Abuse, neglect, poverty, mental illness, drug and alcohol addiction, suicide, it goes on and on. A lifetime of punishment.
 
Jiro said:
yes the horrible crime has been committed but that didn't answer my question. do you think this 14 years old daughter should give birth - NO MATTER WHAT?
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This is an emotional question. No woman would like the idea of having to give birth to a child from a father that raped her. Who would?

But the real question is, why kill an unborn child who did not perpetrate the crime?

If we create laws from the emotion rather than from the head (logic), we'd all be dead by now.

Yiz
 
Jiro said:
by abolishing the abortion law, you are punishing her because she has to relive the memory of rape every minute of her life. Do you think it's fair for this child to be subjected to abuse, depression, etc. when growing up? Do you think it's fair for this 14 years old girl to be subjected to severe depression that may be likely lead to suicide or destructive behavior?

what if she wants to have an abortion? would you say NO to her?
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There you go again, using the word punish. You're making a unborn child guilty by association of the rape as the same as the rapist who committed the crime.

So you are saying the unborn child is not innocent of the crime?

Yiz
 
yizuman said:
This is an emotional question. No woman would like the idea of having to give birth to a child from a father that raped her. Who would?

But the real question is, why kill an unborn child who did not perpetrate the crime?

If we create laws from the emotion rather than from the head (logic), we'd all be dead by now.

Yiz
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Why doom the woman and the child to a lifetime of misery and hopelessness when they did not perpetrate the crime. We are talking about the victims, not the perpetrators. The law takes care of the perpetrators. Allow the victims to take care of themselves in the way that they choose. You have absolutely no understanding or empathy for the victims. You would simply revictimize them all over again based on your idea of what they should do without ever having attempted to put yourself in their shoes. Self-righteous BS.
 
Letting the child live is punishing both the mother and child because the mother will have to live with breathing, walking proof of her rape, and the child will have to live with a mother who is going through the emotional turmoil of living with her byproduct of rape.
 
Jiro said:
is the result same as those who opt for abortion?
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No. Knowing that they have a choice and are able to exercize it is empowering. It allows them to take back the life that was taken away by the rapist.
 
CJB said:
Letting the child live is punishing both the mother and child because the mother will have to live with breathing, walking proof of her rape, and the child will have to live with a mother who is going through the emotional turmoil of living with her byproduct of rape.
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It is inhuman to force a woman to carry the product of a rape to term and give birth to it.
 
yizuman said:
If we create laws from the emotion rather than from the head (logic), we'd all be dead by now.
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Funny, I recall my ethics professor saying that to that effect and I pointed out that even without laws, we'd still exist. He said, "How? We can just murder anyone? Just use our instincts and emotions?"

I said, "Well, with that logic, we would have never evolved. Animals don't have intelligence but rather rely on their instincts and emotions yet we don't hear them killing everything in sight, do we?" Humans are built to keep what they perceive to be important to them and kill what they think are not important to them.

Also, many laws were made on emotions, not logic.
 
If I had a minor daughter pregnant because of rape or incest, I'd force her to have an abortion, no matter what she thinks. I don't want that filthy byproduct to be my grandchild at all, period.
 
netrox said:
Funny, I recall my ethics professor saying that to that effect and I pointed out that even without laws, we'd still exist. He said, "How? We can just murder anyone? Just use our instincts and emotions?"

I said, "Well, with that logic, we would have never evolved. Animals don't have intelligence but rather rely on their instincts and emotions yet we don't hear them killing everything in sight, do we?" Humans are built to keep what they perceive to be important to them and kill what they think are not important to them.

Also, many laws were made on emotions, not logic.
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that's why more and more laws which are based on emotions are being overturned... such as abortion law.
 
Yizuman, this is about control over women's bodies. Whether you have the right to impose your beliefs on women. It's not some abstract moral discussion to me. It's control over my body and reproductive decisions.

You have no clue how much male privilege you have, but I know. You don't have to worry about going out alone at night, if you dress is too provocative so that you won't be inviting rape, whether you can trust a guy enough to let him in your apartment for a drink of water, etc. Women deal with these issues daily. Men have raped many of us here. Women don't talk about it because they are afraid of being perceived as a victim, or worse not believed. I've been followed my strange men in my car. I've been harassed on the street when I did not invite any attention. That's not about sex, that's about power. It's not some abstract discussion. Then, you tell women that if you do get raped, then you must carry that rapist's baby. Where is the compassion?
 
Jiro said:
that's why more and more laws which are based on emotions are being overturned... such as abortion law.
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Actually, Roe v Wade was decided based on right to privacy of medical treatment. I don't see it being overturned by a bunch of emotional zealots who place a fertilized egg over the life of a living breathing human being.

But I also would ask, could you sit through the situation I described and not feel emotion and empathy for the victim? I think not. No one with a heart could.
 
netrox said:
If I had a minor daughter pregnant because of rape or incest, I'd force her to have an abortion, no matter what she thinks. I don't want that filthy byproduct to be my grandchild at all, period.
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The decision should be hers. I don't think a baby being the result of rape automatically makes them filthy. They are still their own human being if they're born and are born as innocent as the rest of us. It's the perpetrator who is the filthy human being.

However, whether or not the mother has the baby should be her choice and hers only.
 
jillio said:
No. Knowing that they have a choice and are able to exercize it is empowering. It allows them to take back the life that was taken away by the rapist.
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:ty:

now do you understand better? I hope you do as you can see that our emotion is not clouding our judgment. We are being logical and sympathetic for unborn children and mothers-to-be because of what life they will have as the result of rape.
 
yizuman said:
This is an emotional question. No woman would like the idea of having to give birth to a child from a father that raped her. Who would?

But the real question is, why kill an unborn child who did not perpetrate the crime?

If we create laws from the emotion rather than from the head (logic), we'd all be dead by now.

Yiz
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yizuman said:
There you go again, using the word punish. You're making a unborn child guilty by association of the rape as the same as the rapist who committed the crime.

So you are saying the unborn child is not innocent of the crime?

Yiz
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because the child is going to be raised by his/her mother who was raped. the child is not going to be born to a life with garden full of roses and puppies like an American Dream. If the mother suffers as the result of rape, the child is going to suffer too. How can you explain to your own child that he/she is the product of rape? Do you think that child can live with that thought as he/she grows up?
 
Actually, in early jurisprudence, women were chattel. Property that belonged to their husband. Women had no legal standing. Any civil liability that existed for harming that woman was based on her value it her husband. Women could not own property. She was a legal non-being. In case you think this was several hundreds of years ago, Texas was the last to abolish the law precluding married women from owning property and that occurred in the late 1800's. That means that my great grandmother was property.
 
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