polite address

[PowerON]

It seem that we, ASL users, have no polite address in our communicate. Every time I notice everybody point each other or make something face each other.

Does that make us feel less respect to label on other people?

I trend to saying it at online to chat. In sign, we don't. People speak, they do.

"Welcome to my house, my friend."
We don't.

"Yes, sir. I will take care of it."
We don't.

Puzzle on how interpreter would make up when someone sign and translator into English tongue to speak up....

 

[Berry]

It seem that we, ASL users, have no polite address in our communicate. Every time I notice everybody point each other or make something face each other.

Does that make us feel less respect to label on other people?

I trend to saying it at online to chat. In sign, we don't. People speak, they do.

"Welcome to my house, my friend."
We don't.

"Yes, sir. I will take care of it."
We don't.

Puzzle on how interpreter would make up when someone sign and translator into English tongue to speak up...

.

You forget there is a lot less hypocrisy and BS in the deaf community as a whole. There is more of a tendency (in my experience) for Deaf to say what they mean, even though the receiver may not like it.

Hearing people seldom say what they really mean.

"Welcome to my house, my friend." Please take a seat while I try to figure out how to cheat you -- Do you play cards? Mine is brand new, freshly marked yesterday.

"Yes, sir. I will take care of it." As soon as I can figure out how to do so to my own advantage.

Please shake my hand -- I practiced for six months so my handshake would convince you by its perfected firmness that I CAN be trusted and that I AM your friend, "Now what can I sell you?"

 

[Mayberries]

"Welcome to my house, my friend." Please take a seat while I try to figure out how to cheat you -- Do you play cards? Mine is brand new, freshly marked yesterday.

"Yes, sir. I will take care of it." As soon as I can figure out how to do so to my own advantage.

Please shake my hand -- I practiced for six months so my handshake would convince you by its perfected firmness that I CAN be trusted and that I AM your friend, "Now what can I sell you?"

Wow, nice generalization. Not only is your implication that all hearing people are backstabbing, selfish, sons of bitches untrue, but there are plenty of people who ARE that way - Deaf and hearing alike. Being Deaf doesn't make someone charitable and kind and being hearing doesn't make you a bastard. If we could all get over these stupid assumptions.

If Deaf people don't say, "Yes sir, I will take care of it," it's because the language doesn't lend itself to that wordiness. "English is long. ASL is deep." Facial expressions say what ASL can't (without being too SEE.)

 

[jillio]

Wow, nice generalization. Not only is your implication that all hearing people are backstabbing, selfish, sons of bitches untrue, but there are plenty of people who ARE that way - Deaf and hearing alike. Being Deaf doesn't make someone charitable and kind and being hearing doesn't make you a bastard. If we could all get over these stupid assumptions.

If Deaf people don't say, "Yes sir, I will take care of it," it's because the language doesn't lend itself to that wordiness. "English is long. ASL is deep." Facial expressions say what ASL can't (without being too SEE.)

You do realize that Berry is hearing?

 

[Hear Again]

Facial expressions say what ASL can't (without being too SEE.)

i thought asl was 95% based on facial expression? :scratch:

 

[jillio]

i thought asl was 95% based on facial expression? :scratch:

Facial and body language are to ASL what inflection in the voice is to spoken language. SEE does not incorporate as much facial expression, but relies on invented signs to convey what ASL does with facial expression and body language.

 

[Hear Again]

Facial and body language are to ASL what inflection in the voice is to spoken language. SEE does not incorporate as much facial expression, but relies on invented signs to convey what ASL does with facial expression and body language.

that's what i thought. for the explanation.

 

[jillio]

that's what i thought. for the explanation.

You're welcome.

 

[Berry]

Wow, nice generalization. Not only is your implication that all hearing people are backstabbing, selfish, sons of bitches untrue,

.

Didn't go that far...

You forget there is a lot less hypocrisy and BS in the deaf community as a whole.

.

Hypocrisy is in fact built into the spoken language and ASL's lack of hypocrisy is one of the reasons Stokoe had such a hard time convincing the hearing world it was a true language.

"WHAT? They use that sign to mean copulation? They don't have an abstract sign to express the concept of coitus?"

"Well, that can't be a language."

There is more of a tendency (in my experience) for Deaf to say what they mean, even though the receiver may not like it.

.

Does not equate to...

Being Deaf doesn't make someone charitable and kind

.

Saying what you mean can often be very uncharitable and very unkind. And what causes some hearing people to look down on Deaf. They see openness and stating what you mean directly as lack of education and maturity.

being hearing doesn't make you a bastard.


.

That is true.

But it does make you raised in hearing culture. You grow up knowing the guy who says, "Good morning, how are you?" does NOT want to hear how you are. Usually he does not even want to slow down long enough to look at you as he breezes by.

You don't find many hearing people staying late long after the party is over to stay and visit with each other just because they like being together. Those who do are considered bores and are not invited back if possible.

Hearing people are raised to believe in the virtues of politeness, business ethics, compartmentalization, time is money, and getting ahead -- and the core of all of them is hypocrisy.

Why do you think so many hearies, myself included, feel more at home in Deaf culture than hearing culture?

It is not because Deaf people are deaf.

It is because Deaf culture celebrates values that are very hard to find in the hearing world.

 

[PowerON]

Facial and body language are to ASL what inflection in the voice is to spoken language. SEE does not incorporate as much facial expression, but relies on invented signs to convey what ASL does with facial expression and body language.

Indeed, I always thought it would be while tried to use "sir" or "madam" in sign. It make me feel strange and not well fit in the communicate as polite address.

Well, have a good day, madam.

 

[Hear Again]

Saying what you mean can often be very uncharitable and very unkind. And what causes some hearing people to look down on Deaf. They see openness and stating what you mean directly as lack of education and maturity.

this is so true and something i had to get used to when i started participating in the deaf community. now that i've been a part of the community since 1995, i admit that i've developed this characteristic as well even though i am not Deaf (i'm small "d" deaf).

 

[jillio]

Didn't go that far...




Hypocrisy is in fact built into the spoken language and ASL's lack of hypocrisy is one of the reasons Stokoe had such a hard time convincing the hearing world it was a true language.

"WHAT? They use that sign to mean copulation? They don't have an abstract sign to express the concept of coitus?"

"Well, that can't be a language."




Does not equate to...




Saying what you mean can often be very uncharitable and very unkind. And what causes some hearing people to look down on Deaf. They see openness and stating what you mean directly as lack of education and maturity.




That is true.

But it does make you raised in hearing culture. You grow up knowing the guy who says, "Good morning, how are you?" does NOT want to hear how you are. Usually he does not even want to slow down long enough to look at you as he breezes by.

You don't find many hearing people staying late long after the party is over to stay and visit with each other just because they like being together. Those who do are considered bores and are not invited back if possible.

Hearing people are raised to believe in the virtues of politeness, business ethics, compartmentalization, time is money, and getting ahead -- and the core of all of them is hypocrisy.

Why do you think so many hearies, myself included, feel more at home in Deaf culture than hearing culture?

It is not because Deaf people are deaf.

It is because Deaf culture celebrates values that are very hard to find in the hearing world.

Well said!

 

[Mayberries]

i thought asl was 95% based on facial expression? :scratch:

Sorry, I should have been more clear. That's what I meant - that facial expressions say what the hands can't. My bad.

And it doesn't matter whether he/she is Deaf or hearing. My statements still stand.

 

[Mayberries]

Hypocrisy is in fact built into the spoken language

How on earth can a character trait be "built into" a spoken language?

But it does make you raised in hearing culture. You grow up knowing the guy who says, "Good morning, how are you?" does NOT want to hear how you are. Usually he does not even want to slow down long enough to look at you as he breezes by.

Once again, that goes beyond language and beyond Deaf/hearing. That completely depends on the person and their individual character.

You don't find many hearing people staying late long after the party is over to stay and visit with each other just because they like being together. Those who do are considered bores and are not invited back if possible.

Hearing people are raised to believe in the virtues of politeness, business ethics, compartmentalization, time is money, and getting ahead -- and the core of all of them is hypocrisy.

The core of politeness is hypocrisy? Are you serious?? Now I just feel bad for you. I don't know what community you grew up in, but it must be a long way away from the majority of the rest of us.

 

[jillio]

How on earth can a character trait be "built into" a spoken language?

Because hypocrisy is not a character trait.


Once again, that goes beyond language and beyond Deaf/hearing. That completely depends on the person and their individual character.
No it doesn't. The person and their individual character are both subject to the influence of their culture.

The core of politeness is hypocrisy? Are you serious?? Now I just feel bad for you. I don't know what community you grew up in, but it must be a long way away from the majority of the rest of us.

Perhaps you are being influenced by your own cultural bias, and as a result, are unable to look at what Berry is saying objectively.

 

[Mayberries]

No it doesn't. The person and their individual character are both subject to the influence of their culture.

A person can be influenced by their culture, yes. Defined by it, no. Generalizations such as the ones Berry made are just ridiculous. When I welcome someone to my home, I'm not plotting their demise. However, you will meet hearing people AND Deaf people like that. Not everything comes down to Deaf or hearing. There are many more factors that influence a person's behavior other than whether they were brought up in Deaf or hearing culture.

And my 'cultural bias' doesn't play a role in this at all. I'm not even hearing. I just can't stand to see generalizations, and such outlandish ones at that, made. Sorry if I seem bristled.

 

[jillio]

A person can be influenced by their culture, yes. Defined by it, no.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, and will cite sociological,anthropological, and psychological findings over any number of years as my foundation for doing so. It is well known that people are defined by the group(s) of which they are a member, and culture is one of them.

Generalizations such as the ones Berry made are just ridiculous. When I welcome someone to my home, I'm not plotting their demise. However, you will meet hearing people AND Deaf people like that. Not everything comes down to Deaf or hearing. There are many more factors that influence a person's behavior other than whether they were brought up in Deaf or hearing culture.

So, you have never asked "How are you?" in passing and not given a tinker's damn how that person was? Or do you regularly engage strangers on the street in coversation regarding their troubles and their triumphs?
And my 'cultural bias' doesn't play a role in this at all. I'm not even hearing. I just can't stand to see generalizations, and such outlandish ones at that, made. Sorry if I seem bristled.

You don't have to be hearing to have a hearing cultural bias. That is what you are failing to understand. Despite the fact that you are deaf, you have taken on the cultural perspective in which you were raised. And, yes, your cultural bias is evident. But, then, rarely do those who have it recognize it.

 

[Berry]

Unfortunately I won't have the time to respond to this until tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Berry]

Deep culture consists of those assumptions so embedded in the person's subconscious as a child that they are almost impossible to look at, state, examine, express, or question. Often they have never been stated directly. They seem natural, obvious, and universal. The one universal constant seems to be the belief that any culture that holds a different view has something fundamentally wrong with it.

The easiest way to discover what these assumptions are is to examine a groups reaction to a culture that holds a different embedded assumption.

First: Not all hearing cultures are the same. The French, Greek, Hmong, and American attitudes toward sex, parties, marriage, politeness, and each other have very little in common.

Even in the same country what is polite in one area is rude in another area. In some parts of the USA it is the most gauche of manners to belch at the table, while in other parts if you do not belch after eating you have just insulted the cook. After all belching shows appreciation for a mighty fine dinner and the greater the belch the greater the appreciation.

In some parts of the USA it is considered courteous to ask a man how his wife is doing. You are showing concern not only for him but for those he loves. While in other parts of the USA you are liable to be asked, "And just why in the hell would you want to know anything about my wife? What is your interest in her? And you just better stay away from me and mine or I'll beat you to a pulp. You only get ONE warning, Do you understand me?"

So in one instance I do my best to burp whether I enjoyed the food or not and in the other I strangle myself trying to control the urge even though I'm doubling up in pain.

And in some places I rack my brain trying to remember what the heck this guy's wife's name is so I can show proper concern while in the other I try my best not to mention that this man's wife is rumored to be dying of cancer and if I ask him how he is holding up under the strain I might be strangled on the spot.

When I was young I was often told, "It never hurts to be polite, and it doesn't cost a thing," But I can guarantee you it was said by people who never ventured outside their own culture and who assumed everyone else's embedded assumptions were the same as their own.

Sorry but I do not see honesty and openness in these episodes of politeness. I see hypocrisy endorsed by social convention.

 

[Hear Again]

burping is ac ceptalble in cwertain parts of the u.s. ? rally? not whee re i live.

<cts boering me. sor ry for typos>