'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited

The probability that the gun will injure someone in your home, innocent person, btw, is far greater than you ever needing it for protection.

Could you provide a link or identify the stats or studies that support this statement? I don't know you, but I'm assuming you researched it prior to reaching this conclusion and I'd be interested in seeing the data you're basing it on.

*I ask because I do know people who have needed to use their gun for protection but do not know any that have injured themselves or an innocent person with it. You seem to be saying that my experience is unusual and I'd like to verify that.
 
I think I'll just assert that shooting someone at close range (like 20 feet or less inside a house) with a shotgun of any guage, be they the 410, 20, 16, 12, 10, or even the rare 8 will do serious and lethal harm because the pellets haven't opened up yet into a large scattered pattern. At say, 10 feet, wouldn't it be like a big slug?

I will refer to this firearm expert who tested 12-gauge and 20-gauge when it comes to home defense.

The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Page 1

Lessons learned:
1. As we have shown time and time again, birdshot is for little birds, not for bad guys. It makes a nasty, shallow wound, but is not a good "Stopper".

2. I was surprised by the penetration of the #3 Buckshot in the 20 gauge. It performed much better than I would have expected. I would not be too quick to discount Buckshot in a 20 Gauge for home defense.

3. 00 Buck in the 12 Gauge was excellent.

4. The Slug in the 20 did not perform very well. For some reason, it broke up into small pieces.

5. Once again, the 12 Gauge Slug amazes us. It was devastating! Penetration was 5 jugs or almost 30 inches. That is equivalent to almost 15 inches of penetration of flesh.

Lots of dead water jugs left. A fine day of shooting.

And, shooting stuff is fun!

(Thanks to Tman for the photo help)

Update:
I received a note from a police officer that asked me not to mention names or locations about this true event.

A police officer was involved in some shotgun training, where they used #6 birdshot in the training due to lower cost. After the training session, he forgot to remove the birdshot and replace it with 00 Buckshot, the normal carry load.

That night, while on patrol, he confronted a couple of burglars and was in a shootout with them. He shot both of them with his shotgun, but forgot that he had it loaded with birdshot.

They killed the officer and escaped.

Never use birdshot against goblins. Use plated 00 Buckshot.

I've also confirmed similar test myself with all different kinds of shell for 12-gauge. My conclusion is exactly same as his conclusion - 12-gauge... only 000 or 00 when it comes to home defense. anything else - just get a toy gun or lock your bedroom door.

Does this answer your question, TheWriteAlex?
 
I will refer to this firearm expert who tested 12-gauge and 20-gauge when it comes to home defense.

The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Page 1



I've also confirmed similar test myself with all different kinds of shell for 12-gauge. My conclusion is exactly same as his conclusion - 12-gauge... only 000 or 00 when it comes to home defense. anything else - just get a toy gun or lock your bedroom door.

Does this answer your question, TheWriteAlex?

I didn't have any questions. I already knew the truth. And no, it doesn't answer anything, and people who are obviously more knowledgeable about guns than you have chimed in on this thread regarding shotguns. Get out of here and go back to the corner with your tail between your legs.
 
It seems to me that if you shoot at someone in your self defense, you are making a decision that will affect the person's life. He could die from your bullet. Or he could just get a grazing wound. Maybe he will have brain damage or be unable to walk as a result of your actions.

If you chose not to shoot the guy, none of that will happen and you won't face a possible police inquiry to see if you acted properly under the circumstances. You do not need to shoot at someone to defend your self.

sssssshhhhh... I wish I can pause the situation and analyze it with all the time in the world to decide my next course of action.

it's very simple.... when somebody breaks into your house or mugs you, you are to assume that your life is in grave danger and when you take a gun out on him, it's shoot to kill.... not to wave it around or play a bluff game. That is illegal and reckless.

If you do not want to shoot or if you are deeply concerned for thug's well-being, then don't get a gun. simple as that. Just get a pepper spray or take kung-fu class.

I am not the one who decide on thug's fate. I did not seek out and trolled him into mugging me like Charles Bronson. He did it himself. He made a decision to harm someone and he'll have to face with deadly consequence.
 
I didn't have any questions. I already knew the truth. And no, it doesn't answer anything, and people who are obviously more knowledgeable about guns than you have chimed in on this thread regarding shotguns. Get out of here and go back to the corner with your tail between your legs.

even though an expert and police officer agreed with my conclusion? oh well.

I find it comical that you are being a hypocrite by thinking about getting a shotgun. Looking at how your state of mind is in confrontations... you're quite hostile and belligerent. Definitely not a person I'd want next to me with a gun.
 
even though an expert and police officer agreed with my conclusion? oh well.

I find it comical that you are being a hypocrite by thinking about getting a shotgun. Looking at how your state of mind is in confrontations... you're quite hostile and belligerent. Definitely not a person I'd want next to me with a gun.

Hypocritical? Lol, do you even see what you write? You're so desperate to try and score points at this stage in the thread, when you've been clearly smacked down from multiple angles, that you're resorting to the ad hominem attacks now? That pretty much signifies defeat. Give it up.
 
This was a guy that was actively fleeing at a high speed. Of course they called for back up. :roll: Your arguments are getting weaker. Maybe you need to take a break.

oh ok.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAQaDntIFw]Police 'punch' suspect during arrest in Nottingham - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE]University of Florida student Tasered at Kerry forum - YouTube[/ame]

I was there when this happened
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awLC3BrnlbI]Superman Arrested in NYC - Columbus Circle - Pt 2 - YouTube[/ame]
 
Hypocritical? Lol, do you even see what you write? You're so desperate to try and score points at this stage in the thread, when you've been clearly smacked down from multiple angles, that you're resorting to the ad hominem attacks now? That pretty much signifies defeat. Give it up.

smacked down?

You wanted to get 16-gauge or 20-gauge. I told you that these guns are useless and that it should be nothing below 12-gauge and 00 bucks.

no? Please do clarify for me then. btw - that wasn't ad hominem. That was just a clear straightforward concern from me. I do not believe you have a right state of mind in any confrontation and that it is in my opinion that you should not have a gun for self-defense purpose because you frequently come off as a hostile person. an aggressor too.

It is simply best if you just lock your bedroom door and call 911.
 
smacked down?

You wanted to get 16-gauge or 20-gauge. I told you that these guns are useless and that it should be nothing below 12-gauge and 00 bucks.

no? Please do clarify for me then. btw - that wasn't ad hominem. That was just a clear straightforward concern from me. I do not believe you have right state of mind in any confrontation and that it is in my opinion that you should not have a gun for self-defense purpose because you frequently come off as a hostile person. an aggressor too.

Multiple people have stated that a 16-20 gauge would be adequate for the job. I have found many sources on the internet stating this as well. I'm not even bothering to post them because of how ridiculously wrong your position is and it's not even worth it to argue this with you. You can keep living in fantasy Jiro world where you know everything and are lord of all.
 
Multiple people have stated that a 16-20 gauge would be adequate for the job. I have found many sources on the internet stating this as well. I'm not even bothering to post them because of how ridiculously wrong your position is and it's not even worth it to argue this with you. You can keep living in fantasy Jiro world where you know everything and are lord of all.

so why is it that I too have multiple sources including police officer, ex-Ranger, West Point firearm instructor, NRA instructors and firearm experts who said otherwise and plus I've been trained with both handgun and shotgun in a CQB-like setting... and yet.... I'm the one who is living in fantasy and you are not?

the link I showed you is not good enough?

mind-boggling.... :dunno:
 
so why is it that I too have multiple sources including police officer, ex-Ranger, West Point firearm instructor, NRA instructors and firearm experts who said otherwise and plus I've been trained with both handgun and shotgun in a CQB-like setting... and yet.... I'm the one who is living in fantasy and you are not?

mind-boggling.... :dunno:

So, the other people on this thread stating the same thing as me are wrong as well? I don't see you going after them though.

Hostile and aggressive behavior indeed.
 
So, the other people on this thread stating the same thing as me are wrong as well? I don't see you going after them though.

Hostile and aggressive behavior indeed.

other people? who?

and since your stance in this issue is leaning toward to anti-gun and criminal's well-being... what's wrong with locking your bedroom door and calling 911?
 
other people? who?

and since your stance in this issue is leaning toward to anti-gun and criminal's well-being... what's wrong with locking your bedroom door and calling 911?

You don't even pay attention, do you? You've got tunnel vision, or reading comprehension issues, but since you asked, both Reba (who I'd wager has a lot more experience with guns than you) and Tousi both made statements that contradict your position.

Secondly, I've repeatedly said I support gun ownership for home defense. I don't believe in allowing non-LEO citizens to carry guns in public areas. I have never diverged from this path.

Anything else?
 
You don't even pay attention, do you? You've got tunnel vision, or reading comprehension issues, but since you asked, both Reba (who I'd wager has a lot more experience with guns than you) and Tousi both made statements that contradict your position.

you must be referring to these posts.
I think I'll just assert that shooting someone at close range (like 20 feet or less inside a house) with a shotgun of any guage, be they the 410, 20, 16, 12, 10, or even the rare 8 will do serious and lethal harm because the pellets haven't opened up yet into a large scattered pattern. At say, 10 feet, wouldn't it be like a big slug?

Sounds serious enough to me.

If I were looking at the business end of any shotgun, I don't think I'd be calculating what gauge it was and how much damage it would do.
ah so they have experience in shooting intruders with shotgun?

and are you disputing with firearm expert's conclusion who had performed experiment with 20-gauge and 12-gauge? and also rest of experienced, seasoned professionals dealing with firearms on daily basis that I mentioned in my previous post?

Secondly, I've repeatedly said I support gun ownership for home defense. I don't believe in allowing non-LEO citizens to carry guns in public areas. I have never diverged from this path.

Anything else?
Let's not quibble.... You are foremost concerned with intruder's well-being. You do not want to kill him and you are concerned with some wall penetration. So you should simply lock your door and call 911.

Nobody would break into your house if you were visibly inside. Nobody is going to stick around when you woke up, locked the door and called 911. Nobody will gets hurt - as long as it's not by you.
 
Reba and Tousi can both answer your little word games themselves if they want. I won't answer for them.

. . . and are you disputing with firearm expert's conclusion who had performed experiment with 20-gauge and 12-gauge? and also rest of experienced, seasoned professionals dealing with firearms on daily basis that I mentioned in my previous post?

I am disputing that you cannot adequately defend your home using a 16g or 20g shotgun. Your experts are interested in the most stopping power possible, with little regard for anything else. It would make sense that this is also your mindset. It's funny how you call me hostile and aggressive because of my words, but you're the one who would put other people, besides a burglar, in harms way by using more firepower than necessary. THAT is scary.


Let's not quibble.... You are foremost concerned with intruder's well-being. You do not want to kill him and you are concerned with some wall penetration. So you should simply lock your door and call 911.

Nobody would break into your house if you were visibly inside. Nobody is going to stick around when you woke up, locked the door and called 911. Nobody will gets hurt - as long as it's not by you.

Okay, so let's not quibble. :roll: Where did I say my foremost concern was the intruder's well-being? If someone wants to break into your home and is going to attack you or your loved ones, or steal your property, etc, you have a right to shoot the person and kill him if necessary. Please show me where I've said otherwise.

Speaking of "intruder's well-being," you're the one who said shooting a burglar with birdshot would be cruel and inhumane:
1. anything below 12-gauge has been proven ineffectual when it comes to home defense (do you know what 20 gauge for? bird shooting. plus it's cruel and inhumane to pump 20 pellets into his body when 12-gauge is just 5-8 pellets)
So, you care about his well-being I take it?

I may be "hostile and aggressive," but you are not much better than a liar at this point. Your verbal trickery, which is pretty easy to locate, really gives clues into your type of personality: dishonest.
 
For the sake of argument, which shotgun will you get? And what kind of shell will you use for home defense? Will you partake in shooting competition regularly and training? And how will it be stored when you go to bed? And will your intention be shoot to kill in case of home invasion?
 
Do you carry it when you go grocery shopping?

elementary question, think harder, open your mind more.


better question, should I carry gun to grocery store in bad area of town at 1 a.m. in the morning?
 
elementary question, think harder, open your mind more.


better question, should I carry gun to grocery store in bad area of town at 1 a.m. in the morning?

Yes. You should. But nobody is forcing anyone to carry or not. A responsible person would realize that ....usually .... When a person needs the police, they are .... Usually, not around. So personal safety is an individuals responsibility.
 
Yes. You should. But nobody is forcing anyone to carry or not. A responsible person would realize that ....usually .... When a person needs the police, they are .... Usually, not around. So personal safety is an individuals responsibility.

Exactly.

I have heart of eagle scout, and I take motto "Be prepared" very seriously. It rarely fails me, that why most of things turns out good for me.

its like leaving behind a writing instrument if you have feeling that there will be pop quiz in class.
 
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