Number of US soldiers Killed in Iraq VASTLY Underreported

[Beowulf]

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1622.htm
I have always maintained from the outset of this "war" that our number of dead in Iraq is FAR higher than officially reported.
Officially, the number of US military deaths in Iraq from May 2 through May 25 totals 75.
Yeah, right, uh huh.

"U.S. Military Personell who died in German hospitals or en route to German hospitals have not previously been counted. They total about 6,210 as of January 1, 2005. The ongoing, underreporting of the dead in Iraq, is not accurate. The DoD is deliberately reducing the figures. A review of many foreign news sites show that the actual deaths are far higher than the newly reduced ones. Iraqi civilian casualties are never reported but International Red Cross, Red Crescent and UN figures indicate that as of January 1, 2005, the numbers are just under 100,000."
by Brian Harring, Domestic Intelligence Reporter.

"Note: There is excellent reason to believe that the Department of Defense is deliberately not reporting a significant number of the dead in Iraq. We have received copies of manifests from the MATS that show far more bodies shipped into Dover AFB than are reported officially. The educated rumor is that the actual death toll is in excess of 7,000. Given the officially acknowledged number of over 15,000 seriously wounded, this elevated death toll is far more realistic than the current 1,400+ now being officially published. When our research is complete, and watertight, we will publish the results along with the sources. In addition to the evident falsification of the death rolls, at least 5,500 American military personnel have deserted, most in Ireland but more have escaped to Canada and other European countries, none of whom are inclined to cooperate with vengeful American authorities. This means that of the 158,000 U.S. military shipped to Iraq, 26,000 either deserted, were killed or seriously wounded. The Dod lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate almost 9,000 dead, over 16,000 seriously wounded and a large number of suicides, forced hospitalization for ongoing drug usage, murder of Iraqi civilians and fellow soldiers, rapes, courts martials and so on.."---Brian Harring

Sighhhh, I am not surprised at ALL, and my father, who is a highly decorated veteran of three wars, agrees with me and this article. But apparently the information is not important enough for the mainstream media to print on MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND. The yearly biker mecca is, though.
When will we say ENOUGH?????

 

[The*Empress]

well we gotta stop terrorists...
get rid of bad Saddam
help women get rights.
and stop poor men from blowing themselves up.
and stuff like that.

At least terrorists won't come here and mess with us anymore.

but look at how we Americans did to the children...

warning: awful picture...

http://www.victorynewsmagazine.com/images/AfghaniWarChildrenTh.jpg

 

[Oceanbreeze]

To be honest with you, I have mixed feelings about Iraq. At first, I supported the war and the reasons for being there. But now, I just don't know what to think. I really believe that we screwed up somewhere along the line, and things are way out of control. I think we need to find a way to get ourselves out of Iraq, and the sooner the better. We screwed this up, big time!

 

[Banjo]

To be honest with you, I have mixed feelings about Iraq. At first, I supported the war and the reasons for being there. But now, I just don't know what to think. I really believe that we screwed up somewhere along the line, and things are way out of control. I think we need to find a way to get ourselves out of Iraq, and the sooner the better. We screwed this up, big time!

I was against the Iraq war in the first place to begin with. The issues I had with the war was how President Bush was promoting it. He emphasized far too much on the WMD claims in comparison to liberation of Iraq. President Bush may had said that he wanted to liberate Iraq, but it certainly wasn't the focus point before the war at all which was why I objected to it.

I knew the WMD claims were pretty spotty and that they had been relying on flawed intelligence reports which did turn out to be true causing the majority of the congress to pass a new bill to reform the CIA. Sure, I didn't have the evidence that these claims were flawed in the first place, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that these claims were problematic to begin with! Especially when there were no evidences to support these claims, and no... pictures of large trucks don't do it for me.

Not only that I had suspected that something wasn't right. I also felt that the war would take far too many American lives.

I don't think it's worth it.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

I was against the Iraq war in the first place to begin with. The issues I had with the war was how President Bush was promoting it. He emphasized far too much on the WMD claims in comparison to liberation of Iraq. President Bush may had said that he wanted to liberate Iraq, but it certainly wasn't the focus point before the war at all which was why I objected to it.

I knew the WMD claims were pretty spotty and that they had been relying on flawed intelligence reports which did turn out to be true causing the majority of the congress to pass a new bill to reform the CIA. Sure, I didn't have the evidence that these claims were flawed in the first place, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that these claims were problematic to begin with! Especially when there were no evidences to support these claims, and no... pictures of large trucks don't do it for me.

Not only that I had suspected that something wasn't right. I also felt that the war would take far too many American lives.

I don't think it's worth it.

I don't disagree with you. There was a time where I would have, but I just don't know. We can agree on this, however, I don't think it's worth it anymore, either. I really don't. Enough is enough. We need to find an exit strategy, and then, get the hell out of there, and quickly!

 

[Reba]

"U.S. Military Personell who died in German hospitals or en route to German hospitals have not previously been counted. They total about 6,210 as of January 1, 2005..."

Can you please give me the source for that figure?

"The DoD is deliberately reducing the figures."

Documentation, please.

"A review of many foreign news sites show that the actual deaths are far higher than the newly reduced ones."

Which "foreign news sites"?

"Iraqi civilian casualties are never reported but International Red Cross, Red Crescent and UN figures indicate that as of January 1, 2005, the numbers are just under 100,000."

Isn't that reporting them?

"There is excellent reason to believe that the Department of Defense is deliberately not reporting a significant number of the dead in Iraq. We have received copies of manifests from the MATS that show far more bodies shipped into Dover AFB than are reported officially."

Where? I didn't see the documents on the link.

"The educated rumor is that the actual death toll is in excess of 7,000."

Rumor.

"When our research is complete, and watertight, we will publish the results along with the sources."/quote]
Fine. Then we should wait until then before passing judgment against the "official" numbers.

"...at least 5,500 American military personnel have deserted, most in Ireland but more have escaped to Canada and other European countries, none of whom are inclined to cooperate with vengeful American authorities."

What is the source for that figure? How are they getting into Ireland?

What are the figures for desertion prior to 2002? I remember people going UA and deserting the Navy during peace time. Some people desert the military during peace and war time for a variety of reasons, usually personal, not political.

You don't trust DoD figures. I don't trust Brian's figures. Who can we trust?

 

[Reba]

About some deserters:

American deserters find mixed reception in Canada

At least four have sought refuge from serving in Iraq war.

By Doug Struck / Washington Post

TORONTO - Jeremy Hinzman enlisted in the Army in Boston and did a tour in Afghanistan. Then came orders to go to Iraq. He neatly piled his Army gear in his living room at Fort Bragg, N.C., and fled to Canada with his wife and baby.

...Spec. Hinzman is a deserter, one of at least four who have followed the path of Vietnam War resisters a generation ago to seek refuge in Canada. Here, they have been embraced by many from that time - former peaceniks who are now pillars of the community.

The government is less welcoming. Despite Canada's opposition to the Iraq war, the government also is opposing the deserters' refugee applications, saying the soldiers are not persecuted. It is resisting the argument that the Iraq war is illegal.

...They are in legal limbo while Hinzman's case works its way through the Immigration and Refugee Board, which has scheduled a hearing for Dec. 6.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/nation/0410/12/a04-300967.htm



US deserters flee to Canada to avoid service in Iraq
By Charles Laurence in New York
(Filed: 09/01/2005)

...During the Vietnam war an estimated 55,000 deserters or draft-dodgers fled to Canada. There were amnesties for both groups in the late 1970s under President Jimmy Carter, but many stayed.

One who did so is Jeffrey House, a Toronto-based lawyer, who represents some of the deserters. He said that at least 25 had reached Canada in recent months with the help of "railroad" organisations, and believed that the immigration board would back his clients.

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/09/wus09.xml

The lawyer who supports the deserters says there were at least 25 deserters in Canada; a long ways to go for 5,500.

 

[Reba]

For young deserters, refuge is hard to find
Canada doesn't offer welcome of Vietnam era
By Sarah Schweitzer, Globe Staff | April 24, 2005

TORONTO -- It seemed like a drastic but simple solution: a step over the border into a country that had offered sanctuary before to Americans fleeing their homeland.

Instead, the growing band of US soldiers who have sought political refuge in Canada after defying orders to serve in Iraq have found themselves in a political limbo.

The nation that once welcomed some 50,000 men who refused to fight in Vietnam is unsure what to do with the current group of American deserters. Canada so far has been unwilling to grant political asylum to men who voluntarily enlisted and then decided they did not want to fight in Iraq, unlike Vietnam-era Americans who faced a compulsory draft.

Last month, the Canadian Immigration and Refugee Board denied refugee status to the first deserter to apply, Jeremy Hinzman, a 26-year-old native of Rapid City, S.D. Hinzman, a specialist in the 82d Airborne Division, served in Afghanistan, but fled from Fort Bragg, N.C., after his Army unit was ordered to Iraq.

The board ruled that Hinzman was not likely to face persecution in the United States and therefore could not be considered a political refugee.

The denial dealt a blow to the 100 recent deserters believed to be living in Canada, said Hinzman's lawyer, Jeffry House, who represents seven of the 10 deserters who have sought protection as political refugees. The board could consider the decision precedent-setting and reject the claims of other deserters, immigration lawyers in Canada say. The appeals process could take years...

...US Army officials say most deserters do not cite the Iraq war as the reason they leave the ranks and instead list family, health, or money as reasons. They also say that the number of deserters has decreased since the war began.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/ar...rd_to_find/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+World+News

 

[Reba]

The Irish Times: March 9, 2005
James C. Kenny: United States Ambassador to Ireland

...Unfortunately, some parties are deliberately spreading false information to advance a political agenda, even at the expense of the Iraqi people who need our help, support, and encouragement.

This false information centres around several myths. They do not stand up to scrutiny:

Myth 2 - "100,000 Iraqis killed as a result of the US invasion." Patently false. Iraq Body Count, a group that is not pro-American, pro-war, or supportive of the Coalition convincingly refutes that falsehood. According the Iraq Body Count website, and as shown daily on the Irish Anti-War Movement's own website, the actual count of non-combatant civilians killed in Iraq is under 20,000, many killed by insurgents' car bombs, suicide attacks, beheadings, kidnappings, and executions.

Myth 4 - "Iraq is an illegal war." Wrong. .. UN Security Council Resolutions 678, 687, and 1441 clearly mandated the use of force against Iraq. A total of 17 UN Resolutions, including 1441, detailed Iraq's obligations, its refusal to disarm, and the consequences it would suffer for noncompliance. The United States and its partners made sure that the use of force was in compliance with UN Resolutions.

Myth 5 - "American soldiers are deserting and refusing to go to Iraq." Wrong again. The anti-war movement must be desperate. It invents facts; it wildly exaggerates figures - claiming 5500 American soldiers have deserted, gone into hiding, been sent to jail, or escaped to Canada to avoid military service. Only three soldiers have gone to Canada to avoid service, and one of them has Canadian citizenship. The total number of desertions is only about a half-dozen. The issue of conscientious objectors and deserters is virtually a non-issue in an all-volunteer army of over two million who serve willingly and bravely.

http://dublin.usembassy.gov/ireland/amb_opedmarch9.html

 

[Beowulf]

James C. Kenny????
:roll:
Right, an unbiased guy.
This clown was Vice President of Kenny Construction Company and that company was embroiled in cost over runs in the Chicago area, and he is also President of Kenny Management Services, which was awarded huge no-bod contracts in the "rebuilding" of Iraq, hand in hand with the honorable company of Halliburton and others.
Why don't you quote Monkeyboy Bush himself? His name is a lot more familiar to most of us in here.
:roll:

 

[Reba]

James C. Kenny????
:roll:
Right, an unbiased guy.

Well, I don't know the Brian Harring guy that you quote. Is he unbiased? Where does he get his information?

Maybe Harring and Kenny cancel each other out.

Why don't you quote Monkeyboy Bush himself? His name is a lot more familiar to most of us in here.

Why should I? I know that all you do is bash him, so what's the point?

 

[Beowulf]

Well, I don't know the Brian Harring guy that you quote. Is he unbiased? Where does he get his information?

Maybe Harring and Kenny cancel each other out.


Why should I? I know that all you do is bash him, so what's the point?

First of all, underreporting our military casualties is standard procedure. I am sure you remember Vietnam, and please don't tell me the underreporting did not go on.
I have talked with veterans about this matter and TO A MAN they all agree that the American people simply do not get the truth.
And yeah, I will bash Monkeyboy everychance I get. He is an evil crook and deserves to be shot after being found guilty in a war crimes tribunal.
And as for "cancelling each other out," give me a break. Our government has NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER and I think an independent reporter can be more trusted and believed.

 

[Beowulf]

And by the way, Reba, I am NOT bashing your feelings or beliefs.
You are entirely too precious for that, and I hope you know I mean it.
I am just in an excellent temper today and will tilt at windmills, lol.

 

[Reba]

First of all, underreporting our military casualties is standard procedure. I am sure you remember Vietnam, and please don't tell me the underreporting did not go on.

Yes, I remember Vietnam. For a while, during that war, I worked in the "deaths and deletions" department of my command (that included all Navy, Marine, and Coast Guard deaths worldwide). That was a different war and a different President. I wouldn't say "underreporting" is a "standard procedure."

I have talked with veterans about this matter and TO A MAN they all agree that the American people simply do not get the truth.

But I talk to other veterans, and I get different information.

And yeah, I will bash Monkeyboy everychance I get.

Other than making you feel good, does that serve any purpose? Does "bashing" and name-calling prove any points?

Our government has NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER and I think an independent reporter can be more trusted and believed.

So you never believe any person in the federal government about anything? But you expect me to believe an "independent reporter" that I don't even know? I tried to find out who this Harring guy is but I can't find any bio or background. If you would like to share that with me, I would appreciate it. Otherwise, he is just an unknown to me with no credibility.

 

[Reba]

And by the way, Reba, I am NOT bashing your feelings or beliefs.

BTW, it might surprise you to know that in discussions with other "live" people, I bring up some of your accusations, and take a "bashing" from the conservative side. When I present these questions and topics, I don't say, "hey, what do you think of this liberal rant?" No, I just pose the question without giving the source. I ask other conservatives, "Do you think we are getting an accurate count of casualties from Iraq?"

You might even say that I am "Devil's advocate" within conservative groups. Some of them look down on me because I am not a Republican.

Sometimes I feel like the man without a country, never fully accepted on either shore.

Sorry, that was :topic:

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

 

[Beowulf]

When you worked in the "deaths and deletions" department, what did you do?
I am curious.
I totally agree with you, Reba, that the actual truth of what goes on in Iraq depends on who or what or which you talk to.
And who, really, Reba, do you talk with? People in your department?
If you are asking if I am pissed, then the answer is HELL YEAH.
Soryy, Reba, but you are so full of shit your eyes are brown.

 

[Reba]

When you worked in the "deaths and deletions" department, what did you do?

I recorded casualties (combat and non-combat, deaths, severe wounded, MIA/POW, UA, desertion), and moved the individuals' records from "active" command files to "inactive" files. That is as much as I can say, other than to add that after official NOK notification, these names (and "numbers") were made public. That was during the early '70's.

Don't worry; I just recorded them after the fact; I didn't cause them. (Reba the sailor didn't have a "hit" list.)

And who, really, Reba, do you talk with? People in your department?

I don't have a "department" anymore. I am retired now, so I just chat with other old fogeys in person, and nutcases like you on-line.

If you are asking if I am pissed, then the answer is HELL YEAH.

I never asked you that. I already KNOW the answer.

 

[Cjanik]

one of the things people fail to notice when they collect information is to find the credibility of the site.

i have never heard of that site before and it doesnt show facts, but tells what it says is facts. I want to see facts from a credible source.

also that site is dedicated against the war. of course the numbers will be very high. they do whatever they can to get people on their side so they make up numbers or sometimes give numbers that are on paper, but manipulate what they really mean.




Reba - most of the time im against your opinions (with respect of course) because you beleive very much of the bible and in god, and I dont because i bleive in evolution and such, but for once im on your side and agree with the myths and truth.