Michigan School for the Deaf??

[beautyartist]

Hello everyone

I was just wondering if anyone has any experience, heard anything about, or went to MSD. My sister is deaf (I'm hearing), and my family and I are touring the school on the 20th of this month. I was hoping to get feedback from people who've had a connection (or know people who have) with the school. I've tried doing google searches on the school and I can't seem to find much information apart from their site and some news articles about how they have demolished some buildings on their campus and sold the land (they're leasing now) to developers. It looks like the school is there to stay (7 year lease), and the grounds look nice.. but I was hoping to find out some more firsthand experience vs. just technical information. I can't even find any information about where they rank nationally amongst deaf schools.

Currently my sister is enrolled in an oral program in a different district, so this would be my families first and only experience with a deaf school.. as you can imagine we are trying to accumulate as much information as possible so we can make a clear decision when it comes time. I am very excited about the prospect of enrolling her in a deaf school (vs. an oral program), but I need as much information as possible to present to my family because I'm the one who talked them into taking the tour and considering it.

Any feedback would be much appreciated!! Thanks


ps- also, I posted a while back about my sister's unique situation and what my family is facing with her educational decisions. Anyone who is interested in chipping in on that conversation would be much appreciated as well! Here is the thread: http://www.alldeaf.com/introduce-yourself/99261-hello-detroit.html

 

[deafdyke]

SO PSYCHED that you got the tour!!!!! Maybe this might nudge your mom to deaf school placement!!!!! One thing I do know is that at many state schools for the deaf there are a lot of kids who, while they have normal IQ aren't functioning at grade level b/c they fell through the cracks in the mainstream. In other words, I have a feeling that there will be a LOT of students like your sister! Heck, maybe this might be THE key to her REALLY thriving....bet you anything she'll learn ASL and then with the right teachers go SKY HIGH. She might even go to college!!!!!

 

[deafdyke]

Beautyartist, PLEASE check your PMs! Thanks!

 

[beautyartist]

Thanks for all the info- I tried emailing you back but it won't let me! I will definitely try and get in touch with that lady to see if she can give me some feedback I'll update everyone after my tour on the 20th! If anyone else has any info on MSD please let me know, the more feedback/info I have the better prepared my family is to make the right decision. You guys are awesome!!

 

[deafdyke]

Thanks for all the info- I tried emailing you back but it won't let me! I will definitely try and get in touch with that lady to see if she can give me some feedback I'll update everyone after my tour on the 20th! If anyone else has any info on MSD please let me know, the more feedback/info I have the better prepared my family is to make the right decision. You guys are awesome!!

Extremely happy about that!!!! Just a few more days! I keep thinking......if someone had simply told my parents that Deaf Ed/ASL was an option even thou I have good oral skills, my life would prolbly be SO much easier and better. I'm almost positive that MSD is one of the sizable Deaf Schools.....meaning it's got a lot of different types of kids from orally skilled to voice off to academic (heading off to Gally/NTID) to life skills kids.
Point out to your mom that your sister would prolly REALLY fall through the cracks in middle and high school. For the past few decades oral deaf education has operated on a "Clarke style" model. Meaning for elementary kids are taught seperately, and then they move on to middle and high school, assuming that they can function on par with hearing kids. Unfortunatly that seems to assume that seperate oral deaf ed turns kids into academic superstars. Unless a kid is a minimal accomondations superstar ,a lot of times they get lumped in with the mainstream special ed....which tends to be clueless about how to educate low incidence disabilties. Not to mention that NOBODY should ever have to deal with the social scene in a mainstream middle and high school. Point that out to your mom......

 

[beautyartist]

From what I can tell from all the people I've spoken to, things I've read, and research I've seen, everyone's experience varies greatly. I think that oral programs work great for some (usually extremely smart children), and are horrible for others. What I think more people should do is RESEARCH all their options, not just rely solely on doctor's opinions and oral schools (as my mother has done), and analyze closely what is working and not working for the kid themselves. I've been able to tell for quite a few years that things weren't working out the way everyone told us they would for my sister.. but instead of researching other options my family just kept saying "She'll catchup eventually".

Outside of the actual education itself I also think that socialization is very hard and limited for most of these children.. middle school and high school are difficult enough as it is for even the most advantaged hearing children.. let alone for children who face other challenges and who are isolated from their peers because of their disadvantages with communication. I think that thankfully if I can get my family to make the switch my sister will just NARROWLY avoid the emotional trauma of having to deal with the social end of things. I know that she is starting to realize that she is "different" and that she doesn't fit in with everybody (nor does everybody WANT to be her friend).. and so far she doesn't seem to be hurt or tormented by it (maybe because it's been minimal so far)... but she's only in 6th grade, and only exposed to the mainstream children for PE class.. so who's to say what it could be like for her in 2 or 3 years when she is exposed more. I know that she isn't being "bullied" badly right now.. but as she starts to seek more acceptance from her peers and tries harder to make friends, I could definitely see that happening. SO I'll be really happy to help her avoid dealing with that, so that when she does deal with it (which I'm sure kids still deal with at deaf schools), at least it will be with kids who are similar to her so it will be easier for her to manage.

Edited to add:


Also, as you mentioned the ultimate goal with the "Clarke model" is to mainstream most kids into a normal classroom setting by middle or high school. At my sister's last IEP meeting they basically told us (because of her "cognitive delay") the chances of that happening for my sister were pretty minimal and that she would likely always be in a self-contained classroom. I'm not in denial that my sister could have additional learning disabilities, however to close her off from a normal social life because of having one (regardless of the severity) is not fair to her. I think that basically she would be considered "one of the retarded kids" by the mainstream children and would never develop the social skills/maturity that she will need to function in the real world. Not to mention I can only imagine how isolated that would make her feel. I think for children who have severe learning disabilities or retardation, many of them would probably not feel the separation as much (either because they aren't as mentally aware of it or because they don't know anything else), but for her because I know she is not "disabled" to that extent, I could totally see her being effected negatively by it.

I think if she is put into an ASL program that she will have the opportunity to develop social skills, make friends easier, AND most importantly might surprise us all and not be as "cognitively delayed" as what they think. I mean without having a strong grasp of a language how can they determine accurately her IQ? Also, if there are other underlying problems such as ADHD (which could be one of the true culprits).. that being left undiagnosed (or misdiagnosed as a cognitive delay) could distort those test scores as well. Even if she does have a cognitive delay and still ends up no better off education wise and opportunity wise for a career.. at the very least she will end up having developed a social maturity and friends that can provide her a sense of security and acceptance.

 

[deafdyke]

From what I can tell from all the people I've spoken to, things I've read, and research I've seen, everyone's experience varies greatly. I think that oral programs work great for some (usually extremely smart children), and are horrible for others. What I think more people should do is RESEARCH all their options, not just rely solely on doctor's opinions and oral schools (as my mother has done), and analyze closely what is working and not working for the kid themselves. I've been able to tell for quite a few years that things weren't working out the way everyone told us they would for my sister.. but instead of researching other options my family just kept saying "She'll catchup eventually".

Outside of the actual education itself I also think that socialization is very hard and limited for most of these children.. middle school and high school are difficult enough as it is for even the most advantaged hearing children.. let alone for children who face other challenges and who are isolated from their peers because of their disadvantages with communication. I think that thankfully if I can get my family to make the switch my sister will just NARROWLY avoid the emotional trauma of having to deal with the social end of things. I know that she is starting to realize that she is "different" and that she doesn't fit in with everybody (nor does everybody WANT to be her friend).. and so far she doesn't seem to be hurt or tormented by it (maybe because it's been minimal so far)... but she's only in 6th grade, and only exposed to the mainstream children for PE class.. so who's to say what it could be like for her in 2 or 3 years when she is exposed more. I know that she isn't being "bullied" badly right now.. but as she starts to seek more acceptance from her peers and tries harder to make friends, I could definitely see that happening. SO I'll be really happy to help her avoid dealing with that, so that when she does deal with it (which I'm sure kids still deal with at deaf schools), at least it will be with kids who are similar to her so it will be easier for her to manage.

Edited to add:


Also, as you mentioned the ultimate goal with the "Clarke model" is to mainstream most kids into a normal classroom setting by middle or high school. At my sister's last IEP meeting they basically told us (because of her "cognitive delay") the chances of that happening for my sister were pretty minimal and that she would likely always be in a self-contained classroom. I'm not in denial that my sister could have additional learning disabilities, however to close her off from a normal social life because of having one (regardless of the severity) is not fair to her. I think that basically she would be considered "one of the retarded kids" by the mainstream children and would never develop the social skills/maturity that she will need to function in the real world. Not to mention I can only imagine how isolated that would make her feel. I think for children who have severe learning disabilities or retardation, many of them would probably not feel the separation as much (either because they aren't as mentally aware of it or because they don't know anything else), but for her because I know she is not "disabled" to that extent, I could totally see her being effected negatively by it.

I think if she is put into an ASL program that she will have the opportunity to develop social skills, make friends easier, AND most importantly might surprise us all and not be as "cognitively delayed" as what they think. I mean without having a strong grasp of a language how can they determine accurately her IQ? Also, if there are other underlying problems such as ADHD (which could be one of the true culprits).. that being left undiagnosed (or misdiagnosed as a cognitive delay) could distort those test scores as well. Even if she does have a cognitive delay and still ends up no better off education wise and opportunity wise for a career.. at the very least she will end up having developed a social maturity and friends that can provide her a sense of security and acceptance.

beautyartist....YOU GET IT! You completely and utterly GET IT!!!! Again, I don't know your sister, and have never evaluated her......BUT, I also know that being limited to oral only can stunt acheivement and all that....and post elementary school there's really no specific oral program. Does your sister seem bright otherwise? I also know of a few dhh kids with IQ scores simliar to your sisters. They were mainstreamed and oral in high school.....and just TOTALLY fell through the cracks emotionally socially and academicly. They graduated and are in the hearing world....but they don't have the "deaf connection." Meaning they don't have a lot of REAL hearing friends, but they don't know ASL so they can't take advantage of deaf world stuff or stuff specificly for dhh adults. There is NOTHING out there for dhh as kids adults who do not sign.
And yeah I hear you....in high school she'd be lumped in with the mentally handicapped kids or seen as one of the "retards." Hell, THAT happened to ME, and I was the type of kid who took Latin and French!

 

[deafdyke]

Oh and re socialization.....socialization issues are HORRIBLE even for the AG Bell kids who do REALLY well academicly in the mainstream. It's one of those dirty little secrets that AG Bad doesn't like to advertise.

 

[beautyartist]

beautyartist....YOU GET IT! You completely and utterly GET IT!!!! Again, I don't know your sister, and have never evaluated her......BUT, I also know that being limited to oral only can stunt acheivement and all that....and post elementary school there's really no specific oral program. Does your sister seem bright otherwise? I also know of a few dhh kids with IQ scores simliar to your sisters. They were mainstreamed and oral in high school.....and just TOTALLY fell through the cracks emotionally socially and academicly. They graduated and are in the hearing world....but they don't have the "deaf connection." Meaning they don't have a lot of REAL hearing friends, but they don't know ASL so they can't take advantage of deaf world stuff or stuff specificly for dhh adults. There is NOTHING out there for dhh as kids adults who do not sign.
And yeah I hear you....in high school she'd be lumped in with the mentally handicapped kids or seen as one of the "retards." Hell, THAT happened to ME, and I was the type of kid who took Latin and French!

Thanks for the reassurance I am hoping that I am on the right path, and as someone who has never been a part of the d/hh community I am doing the best I can to make (or influence) decisions as best I can by doing as much research and reaching out to people as I can.

The scenario you described about the kids you know who came out of the oral schools like that is EXACTLY what I'm petrified will happen to my sister. To make the situation even scarier is that her father, grandmother (father's side), and my mother all have varying degrees of bad health (her father's side the worst) and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if in 10-20 years most if not all of them are either in extremely bad health or (god forbid) dead So basically she would be in a situation where she has limited resources socially and friend wise, limited job opportunities, and really only me, my other sister, and a few extended family members (who she's not even that close with) as support. It's not a great picture to think about.. so I've been trying to be proactive so that I can help her create a more stable and happy future for herself.. especially since most of the people who are making the decisions for her right now are people who likely won't be around in 20 years to see the true repercussions for her as an adult! Sad I know

When I look at my sister I see a very energetic, social, warm hearted, curious, and funny girl. She is very artistic and has a great memory (I'm continually amazed at details she remembers from events and things that happened years ago). She struggles A LOT with her attention span, and is definitely one of those types that if something doesn't interest her she can't stay focused on it for more than a few minutes at a time. Personally I believe she has fairly severe ADHD, which is the main culprit for her learning problems (outside of the obvious lack of language abilities). My HOPE is that once we have a language she can become completely fluent in, she will be able to show us her real strengths and weaknesses and we will be able to more clearly diagnose any "learning disabilities" she has (or as the doctors and teachers say "cognitive delays"). After we reach that point, hopefully we will be able to determine what things she can best excel at and that will lead us into pushing her into either a vocational trade or in a best case scenario (if she surprises us all) a university or technical institute such as Gallaudet or RIT.

At the end of the day, regardless of what she ends up doing with her life (career wise) I just want her to be a happy individual who has a fun and fulfilling life surrounded by people who support and love her. Whether that be in the Deaf Community, Hearing Community, or both doesn't matter to me. I just want her to have OPTIONS.. which in her current situation she does not have.

 

[deafdyke]

Thanks for the reassurance I am hoping that I am on the right path, and as someone who has never been a part of the d/hh community I am doing the best I can to make (or influence) decisions as best I can by doing as much research and reaching out to people as I can.

The scenario you described about the kids you know who came out of the oral schools like that is EXACTLY what I'm petrified will happen to my sister. To make the situation even scarier is that her father, grandmother (father's side), and my mother all have varying degrees of bad health (her father's side the worst) and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if in 10-20 years most if not all of them are either in extremely bad health or (god forbid) dead So basically she would be in a situation where she has limited resources socially and friend wise, limited job opportunities, and really only me, my other sister, and a few extended family members (who she's not even that close with) as support. It's not a great picture to think about.. so I've been trying to be proactive so that I can help her create a more stable and happy future for herself.. especially since most of the people who are making the decisions for her right now are people who likely won't be around in 20 years to see the true repercussions for her as an adult! Sad I know

When I look at my sister I see a very energetic, social, warm hearted, curious, and funny girl. She is very artistic and has a great memory (I'm continually amazed at details she remembers from events and things that happened years ago). She struggles A LOT with her attention span, and is definitely one of those types that if something doesn't interest her she can't stay focused on it for more than a few minutes at a time. Personally I believe she has fairly severe ADHD, which is the main culprit for her learning problems (outside of the obvious lack of language abilities). My HOPE is that once we have a language she can become completely fluent in, she will be able to show us her real strengths and weaknesses and we will be able to more clearly diagnose any "learning disabilities" she has (or as the doctors and teachers say "cognitive delays"). After we reach that point, hopefully we will be able to determine what things she can best excel at and that will lead us into pushing her into either a vocational trade or in a best case scenario (if she surprises us all) a university or technical institute such as Gallaudet or RIT.

At the end of the day, regardless of what she ends up doing with her life (career wise) I just want her to be a happy individual who has a fun and fulfilling life surrounded by people who support and love her. Whether that be in the Deaf Community, Hearing Community, or both doesn't matter to me. I just want her to have OPTIONS.. which in her current situation she does not have.

Actually those kids weren't oral school kids. Those were kids who were auditory-verbal style inclusion kids. Meaning they had NEVER even been in a Dhh education program! Don't even get me started on how SO MANY children fall through the cracks. I wish I could talk to your mom in person. I really do.
So many parents are so misinformed as to oral only. Yes, oral skills rock but they cannot and do not equalize dhh kids. Parents seem to think that oral skills provide unfettered access to the hearing world. They don't. I remember a mom of a hoh kid talking to oral deaf adults. They said that while they're glad they can hear and speak, they still don't feel like they fit in 100% with the hearing world. You're so right......is she in the sitution where most of her " friends" are family, and maybe a handful of other kids in the oral program? I really think that the end goals of oral only are just so short sighted. They're well meaning yes....but they never think of the 20 something boy who has never dated,(I remember back when I still used AIM I would get BOMBARDED with random deaf dudes who wanted a girlfriend and they didn't have the world's best social skills) they never think that they'll end up with a handful of "friends" and so on and so on. And these aren't just mildly deaf plus (ie LD/ADD and so on) kids....a lot of "just dhh" kids experiance major major social emotional issues.The social issues downside is REALLY swept under the rug. Majorly....and it irritates the fuck out of me!!!!
Re: the ADD.....I think you're right there. Did you know that 30% of oral dhh kids are identified as having ADD. It's a common co-morbid in oral classrooms, but is very rare in signing deaf classrooms.......I do think you're right.....once she gets ASL, I think she could at least end up at community college.....

 

[deafdyke]

Any updates? Waiting anxiously!