Integration Strategy Demands Words Against Sticks and Stones

[Liebling:-)))]

Integration Strategy Demands Words Against Sticks and Stones

As Germany wonders why its teenagers have become such hoodlums, the government has announced a "National Plan of Action" to counter violence in schools. Bavaria is already one step ahead of the game.

Is it because immigrant children are alienated from society; is it because Germany has a system of academically segregated schooling -- or is just the rotten core of contemporary life? Either way, the country's politicians are falling over themselves to find a quick-fix solution to the problems highlighted by the Rütli high school in Berlin, where police were recently called in to monitor what teachers described as out-of-control violence.

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Pre-school kids who fail the test will have to take German classes

"The time when we could look away and shrug our shoulders is over," warned Maria Böhmer, the government's integration commissioner.

Speaking in the Bundestag, she stressed that the first priority needs to be giving young people better prospects and announced a national initiative to boost better integration and increase young immigrants' chances on the job market.

With members of the Green party dismissing the initiative as a mere "placebo," parliamentarians present at Wednesday's debate failed to reach agreement on whether the roots of juvenile delinquency amongst immigrants are failed integration or failed education policies.

So much for the causes. As for the solutions, they ranged from deporting young offenders to slashing their family benefits. The one proposal that met with broad agreement was to focus on improving immigrants' language skills, starting at kindergarten level.

Wolfgang Gerhardt, parliamentary party chief of the free market liberal FDP party, argued that only children with adequate German should be admitted to school.

Compulsory language testing

The plan is already underway in Bavaria, which revealed earlier this week that it intends to introduce language tests for immigrant children one year before they start school.

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Students with adequate German skills: less likely to be unruly?

Those who fail will spend 160 hours of their last kindergarten year taking German classes, and children who fail the test a second time round will be refused entry to elementary school and sent to special needs schools.

The test will be obligatory for foreign children, with parents facing a financial penalty if they fail to register their children for the exam or the extra classes.

Bavarian Premier Edmund Stoiber denied the plan was linked to events in Berlin and said it had been in development for some time. The leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister-party, the conservative CSU, he said the tests were a way of penalizing those who fail to pull their weight in the process of integration.

"It's not up to us to adapt to the customs of our guests, it's up to them to adapt to us," he stressed. "But these tests are first and foremost in the interests of the children and their families."

Not enough

Educational experts agree the tests serve a purpose, but say improving language skills should be just one strand of a more ambitious approach.

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Germany is desperate to improve integration

"Everyone at school needs to stick to certain rules and in that respect, demanding a certain level of language skills is a reasonable request," said Michael Strohschein from Lower Saxony's Association for Education and Economics in an interview with Tagesschau TV news program. "But the problems run deeper, what with poverty, aggression and cultural differences. Schools and social workers need to cooperate closely in tackling these problems and that costs money."

In the Bundestag, Green party parliamentary group leader Volker Beck had a similar take on the testing scheme -- and also stressed that change won't come for free.

"Language tests for school starters are not enough," he said. "It's therefore shocking that the governing coalition is planning to cut one-third of its integration budget."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1959660,00.html

Yes I heard this happened thru news... It's scary! Thank God, I didn't live in Berlin... :Ohno:

Yes I know alot of immgrants lives in large city of Berlin... It's scary when the news say that there're 80% of immigrants live there...

2 German students from Grammar school were being accompanied by the newspaper reporter and film, to test those school where alot of immgrants attend for 2 days to collect the answers from immgrants. It scared them off thru their bad languages and also their manner behaviors. Their favorite words: "You German Whore"... 2 Germans choose to ignore them. Afterward the reporters asked 2 Germans students what they think of immgrants (Turkei and Arabians). Their answer: Disrespectful and very bad behavior. No wonder, the immigrants were educated different cultural and beliefs than German cultural by their families. German government tried to make the law that legal immigrants have to train to show their respect on German cultural since they live in Germany and accept their cultural. If they don't like then go back to their own countries. What immigrants's behavior is not acceptance.

The principal and teachers can't bear anymore of immigrants's disrespect behavior and violent so principal decided to close the school... What happened then? I will update when I find out.

 

[Rose Immortal]

I don't know about they way they're doing this. Does sending these immigrant to special needs schools actually ACCOMPLISH anything or just distance them further and ruin their chances of doing well in German society???

I do think it's reasonable to expect immigrants to learn the language...but, the means need to be there so that they can in a reasonable time. AND there needs to be the willingness on the part of the native culture to teach without looking down on them. I don't know enough about Germany to know, but are those two things there or not?

 

[sr171soars]

In Europe, this is not just occuring in Germany. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Pretty much all the European countries that have a sizable immigrant population is running into this problem. Europeans made an assumption way back that these immigrants would easily blend in with their populations. That is a big mistake which they will pay for dearly in the coming years.

I can see that the article didn't specify the types of immigrants (but the pictures don't lie). The politically correct can't outright say it yet but it will become more and more obvious over time. In Germany, the majority of the immigrants are Turkish who came over as part of the guest worker programs since the 70's. That means they are culturally very different than the Western society. The Germans didn't take to them very well as they were er...different and they didn't understand them. The same is true for the Turks looking at the Germans. No wonder they are alienated and it will continue to get worst for all the Germans try to do.

Now as I mentioned before, this is not exclusively a German problem. Anybody remember France burning not too long ago? The French have it far worst of any of the European nations as they have the highest concentration of such immigrants (mostly Algerians and Morrocians) as a portion of their population. Worst for all the European countries is that their core "native" population are shrinking due to a birthrate is cannot replenish their numbers. You need some 2+ children per couple to replace the population. None, absolutely none of them are doing that. For a perspective, the US barely meets that and that is only because of the sizable incoming Hispanic immigration it has (fortunately for us, the Hispanics are closer to us culturally and they can fit in very well especially if they learn English). Now, the immigrants especially the Muslum populations are growing and they will start to be sizable minorities and they will start dictating with their votes.

This is where it gets interesting as the Europeans are starting to wake up to the problem but they don't really know what to do about it. No matter what they do, they got a real humdinger of a problem over there and it ought to be a real object lesson to us. I do believe you will see waves of unrest within a decade as tensions will keep rising. Those who can't believe this is like an ostrich burying it's head in the sand and sadly to say there is a lot of that going on right now (a denial of reality).

 

[ismi]

I don't know about they way they're doing this. Does sending these immigrant to special needs schools actually ACCOMPLISH anything or just distance them further and ruin their chances of doing well in German society???

I do think it's reasonable to expect immigrants to learn the language...but, the means need to be there so that they can in a reasonable time. AND there needs to be the willingness on the part of the native culture to teach without looking down on them. I don't know enough about Germany to know, but are those two things there or not?

My German history is rusty, but I *believe* there was a major influx of immigrants during the post-war reconstruction (due to the Marshall Plan). They came in large part for economic opportunities. The majority are Turks, I believe. There's a certain amount of resentment against them by some in the German population due to a perception that they are "stealing jobs" from native Germans. Very similar to anti-Mexican (or other) immigrant feelings in the US. Germany has a high rate of unemployment for various reasons, one of which is the burden of restoring the former East Germany's economy.

 

[Heath]

Hopefully Germany will wise up and not follow the USA's example and close the German borders and re-build German society back to stronger levels and if the Turks want economical and educational opporounities then they can take to the streets in Turkey in their own Turkish capital and improve themselves from there than be a drain on another nation's economcy and resources.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Hopefully Germany will wise up and not follow the USA's example and close the German borders and re-build German society back to stronger levels and if the Turks want economical and educational opporounities then they can take to the streets in Turkey in their own Turkish capital and improve themselves from there than be a drain on another nation's economcy and resources.

What about those of Turkish descent who were legal, and who have known no other home but Germany? I wouldn't kick them out.

 

[Heath]

What about those of Turkish descent who were legal, and who have known no other home but Germany? I wouldn't kick them out.

If they are legal then they can stay because they are obeying the laws of Germany.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

If they are legal then they can stay because they are obeying the laws of Germany.

Exactly

 

[Liebling:-)))]

New Immigration Law Offers Prospects for Skilled Workers, Students

Some of posts here wondering about German law over Immigration. The link explains better.

New Immigration Law Offers Prospects for Skilled Workers, Students

Courses: This German language course in Stuttgart in 2002 was part of a pilot program testing the concept of integration courses for new immigrants. DPA photo

Germany’s new law on immigration – with provisions for skilled foreigners to receive permission to work and settle in Germany, government-funded integration programs, improvements in asylum rules, and security measures – was approved by the Bundesrat on July 9. With that final approval, the law is set to go into effect on January 1, 2005.

With this law, Interior Minister Otto Schily said after its approval, Germany has taken an important step in establishing itself in a globalized world in which Germany cannot simply close itself off, but must “open its doors and windows.” With the broad approval it won, the idea that Germany is country of immigration has taken root, Schily said.

Some of the provisions of the new law:

Foreign students who successfully complete their studies in Germany will be allowed to remain in the country for up to one year to find a job
Integration courses will be offered to all new immigrants and made mandatory for immigrants with special integration needs

A new residency status for refugees of civil wars

A speedier process for expelling foreigners suspected of belonging to or supporting groups that support terrorism

Some 7.2 million foreigners live in Germany, and as of December 1999, some 52 % had been living in Germany for at least 10 years and approximately 32 % had been living there for 20 years or more. A law generally prohibiting recruitment of foreign workers has been in effect since 1973. Under the “Green Card” initiative created in 2000, some 10,000 foreign highly-skilled workers in the information-technology field came to Germany, though their stay under a temporary work permit is limited to five years. The new immigration law goes further by offering the prospect of long-term residency in Germany to highly-skilled foreigners. It also streamlines the process, eliminating the need for an individual to apply separately for residence and work permits.

The vote on July 9 brought to an end several years of controversy and negotiation over the issue of immigration. The Bundestag originally passed an immigration law in November 2001, but a subsequent vote of approval by the Bundesrat was eventually declared null and void due to a procedural error. While the Bundestag again voted to approve the immigration law in May 2003, the proposal was rejected the following month by the conservative majority in the Bundesrat. Then in June 2004, government and opposition party negotiators reached the final details on a compromise, clearing the way for passage in the Bundestag and Bundesrat.

The President of the Deutsches Studentenwerk (German student union) Hans-Dieter Rinkens welcomed the new law, saying it showed foreign students that they are welcome in Germany. Representatives of refugee and asylum organizations welcomed the law but are also in favor of further reforms. And the president of the Deutsche Industrie und Handelskammertages (German chamber for industry and trade), Ludwig Georg Braun called for even more measures to ease immigration for foreign workers.

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/politics/new/pol_immigration_law_2004.html

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I can see that the article didn't specify the types of immigrants (but the pictures don't lie). The politically correct can't outright say it yet but it will become more and more obvious over time. In Germany, the majority of the immigrants are Turkish who came over as part of the guest worker programs since the 70's. That means they are culturally very different than the Western society. The Germans didn't take to them very well as they were er...different and they didn't understand them. The same is true for the Turks looking at the Germans. No wonder they are alienated and it will continue to get worst for all the Germans try to do.

It's not just pictures but the TV news since one week now. 80% muslims lives in City of Berlin who can't speak German language and disrespect German culture which it's unacceptance. They supposing to respect German culture BECAUSE they live in Germany.

We beleive that German-muslims who live in Germany in their life who bring their families from muslim countries to here in Germany which it's not right. I'm glad that German lawmakers decide for who lives in Germany and must learn to speak German and obey German law. If not, then they have to go back to their own country.

German law limit immigrants and decide whatever they want to have them stay forever or go back to their own countries after 6 months to 1 year live in Germany with Permit/green card. They would have them to stay in Germany permantley only if they have good quality skill and good German speaking languages skill or good job. Depend on different laws how/what they do with immigrants.

We have turks who live the same area where I live, speak German very good and living at German life and act like being German. They are very nice & friendly people. They show respect on Germany lifestyle very good. I have no problem with them for that.

Now as I mentioned before, this is not exclusively a German problem.

It's muslim people's problem for not respect German lifestyle & refuse to learn anything about German lifestyle. That's how the muslim parents expose their children like this. New law - the parents will pay penalty fine for expose their children to disrespect German culture. Thank God, I didn't live in Berlin.

Anybody remember France burning not too long ago? The French have it far worst of any of the European nations as they have the highest concentration of such immigrants (mostly Algerians and Morrocians) as a portion of their population.

France & England have highest immigrants than all of Europe countries. Did you know why French-muslims, Afrian-French, etc people are furious because they feel being discriminated by French which it's not right. They should treat the equal as French because they born and raised in France. I know that they should not burn something.

Worst for all the European countries is that their core "native" population are shrinking due to a birthrate is cannot replenish their numbers.

Is it France, you talking about? I can't answer to this because I didn't know much about immigrants rights in France but Germany and other European countries.

German Cities are obligate to check legal immigrants with the help from their Permit card. They will know automatic that how many children in household and how many children born to immigrants parents. The birthrate goes to public healthy department for med. care cost then they send the bills to Cities for immigrants's med.care which it's easier for cities to find out how long immigrates allow to live in Germany & how many immigrants live in one household. They get the letter from Cities month before the date of permit card running out, to make test either they want to extend to stay in Germany or not. Cities apply the Police to look for immigrants if they become illegal immigrants and then bring them back to their countries.

You need some 2+ children per couple to replace the population. None, absolutely none of them are doing that.

Unfortunlately I has to correct you. (See above) It's not all European countries. I beleive it could be in France and England.

I know some of immigrants rights in England. British immigrants rights is almost similar as US immigrants rights as what I learn from some threads here. Alot of illegal immigrants are offer to get the jobs in England, France & US which German, not because German owners/employers are not allow to offer people the job without check their permit/green card.

For a perspective, the US barely meets that and that is only because of the sizable incoming Hispanic immigration it has (fortunately for us, the Hispanics are closer to us culturally and they can fit in very well especially if they learn English). Now, the immigrants especially the Muslum populations are growing and they will start to be sizable minorities and they will start dictating with their votes.

Only Germans who can vote, not legal immigrants.
Like what I said before, immigrants can stay in Germany forever only if they show their respect on German law and learn to speak German languages. I don't vote because I'm not German citzoen. (sp)

This is where it gets interesting as the Europeans are starting to wake up to the problem but they don't really know what to do about it.

No, it's not about "starting to wake up to the problem" but try to do anything to improve and correct which it's good because it shows how much they cares about their people and countries. It would be bad if European government neglect their people to consider to spend millions on wars, etc from other countries.

 

[sr171soars]

NOTE ==> My comments in black!!! Intermixed into Liebling comments (blue)

Note the figures below... This will help frame the discussions better...
In Europe 2.1 children per woman is considered to be the population replacement level. These are national averages
Ireland: 1.99 <== Probably the only European country that is near the proper
repopulation ratio and that is not immigrant related.
France: 1.90 <== Remember that over 10% of the population is immigrant -
meaning majority North Africans and they have a higher birth
rate than the French. Say the actual core French birth rate is
closer to 1.75 or less. Not good.
Norway: 1.81 <== Probably another mostly non immigrant related birth rate.
Sweden 1.75 <== Lots of immigrants plus the family as defined traditionally
has mostly cease to exist.
The rest of them below just aren't good and really bad for the last four.
UK: 1.74
Netherlands: 1.73
Germany: 1.37
Italy: 1.33
Spain: 1.32
Greece: 1.29
Source: Eurostat - 2004 figures

...
I'm glad that German lawmakers decide for who lives in Germany and must learn to speak German and obey German law. If not, then they have to go back to their own country.

German law limit immigrants and decide whatever they want to have them stay forever or go back to their own countries after 6 months to 1 year live in Germany with Permit/green card....

We have turks who live the same area where I live, speak German very good and living at German life and act like being German. They are very nice & friendly people. They show respect on Germany lifestyle very good. I have no problem with them for that.

The Germans think they have control of the situation but they don't as the birth rate shows. They need the Turks too much and they do have a higher birth rate. That will be interesting to watch.


It's muslim people's problem for not respect German lifestyle & refuse to learn anything about German lifestyle. That's how the muslim parents expose their children like this. New law - the parents will pay penalty fine for expose their children to disrespect German culture. Thank God, I didn't live in Berlin.

As we already seen in Berlin, control is lost. Unless the authorities really say what they mean...I will believe it only when I see the deportations.


France & England have highest immigrants than all of Europe countries. Did you know why French-muslims, Afrian-French, etc people are furious because they feel being discriminated by French which it's not right. They should treat the equal as French because they born and raised in France. I know that they should not burn something.

The mistreatment of the immigrants has been going on for decades in France. The battle has just started and it will just get worst.



Unfortunlately I has to correct you. (See above) It's not all European countries. I beleive it could be in France and England.

See my cut & pasted chart. It just shows birth rates with a couple of comments I made from other sources. It is most if not all European countries.

Only Germans who can vote, not legal immigrants.
Like what I said before, immigrants can stay in Germany forever only if they show their respect on German law and learn to speak German languages. I don't vote because I'm not German citzoen. (sp)

If it were true, then let the mass expulsions would have begun a while ago. But they haven't...why not? It may be a moot point when the German population half what it is in 25-50 years. Not a very nice thought.

No, it's not about "starting to wake up to the problem" but try to do anything to improve and correct which it's good because it shows how much they cares about their people and countries. It would be bad if European government neglect their people to consider to spend millions on wars, etc from other countries.

Sorry, the European politicians and citizens have been sticking their heads in the sand for a long time. This stuff in the news (especially when the French fires were going) is starting to force everybody to wake up to it and no amount of "being nice" is going change things. The big problem is not recognizing that the majority of the immigrants are Muslims and don't really think in terms of Western thought. Some may adapt fine but many of them are alienated and don't want any part of it.

 

[sr171soars]

Sigh!...let try this again as I screwed up the formatting of my prior response to Liebling.

This should look a lot better and make sense now

Note the figures below... This will help frame the discussions better...
In Europe 2.1 children per woman is considered to be the population replacement level. These are national averages
Ireland: 1.99 <== Probably the only European country that is near the proper
repopulation ratio and that is not immigrant related.
France: 1.90 <== Remember that over 10% of the population is immigrant -
meaning majority North Africans and they have a higher birth
rate than the French. Say the actual core French birth rate is
closer to 1.75 or less. Not good.
Norway: 1.81 <== Probably another mostly non immigrant related birth rate.
Sweden 1.75 <== Lots of immigrants plus the family as defined traditionally
has mostly cease to exist.
The rest of them below just aren't good and really bad for the last four.
UK: 1.74
Netherlands: 1.73
Germany: 1.37
Italy: 1.33
Spain: 1.32
Greece: 1.29
Source: Eurostat - 2004 figures

...
I'm glad that German lawmakers decide for who lives in Germany and must learn to speak German and obey German law. If not, then they have to go back to their own country.

German law limit immigrants and decide whatever they want to have them stay forever or go back to their own countries after 6 months to 1 year live in Germany with Permit/green card....

We have turks who live the same area where I live, speak German very good and living at German life and act like being German. They are very nice & friendly people. They show respect on Germany lifestyle very good. I have no problem with them for that.

The Germans think they have control of the situation but they don't as the birth rate shows. They need the Turks too much and they do have a higher birth rate. That will be interesting to watch.

It's muslim people's problem for not respect German lifestyle & refuse to learn anything about German lifestyle. That's how the muslim parents expose their children like this. New law - the parents will pay penalty fine for expose their children to disrespect German culture. Thank God, I didn't live in Berlin.

As we already seen in Berlin, control is lost. Unless the authorities really say what they mean...I will believe it only when I see the deportations.

France & England have highest immigrants than all of Europe countries. Did you know why French-muslims, Afrian-French, etc people are furious because they feel being discriminated by French which it's not right. They should treat the equal as French because they born and raised in France. I know that they should not burn something.

The mistreatment of the immigrants has been going on for decades in France. It goes all the way back to the Algerian conflict as Algeria was once a French colony. The battle has just started and it will just get worst.

Unfortunlately I has to correct you. (See above) It's not all European countries. I beleive it could be in France and England.

See my cut & pasted chart. It just shows birth rates with a couple of comments I made from other sources. It is most if not all European countries.

Only Germans who can vote, not legal immigrants.
Like what I said before, immigrants can stay in Germany forever only if they show their respect on German law and learn to speak German languages. I don't vote because I'm not German citzoen. (sp)

If it were true, then the mass expulsions would have begun a while ago. But they haven't...why not? It may be a moot point when the German population half what it is in 25-50 years. Not a very nice thought.

No, it's not about "starting to wake up to the problem" but try to do anything to improve and correct which it's good because it shows how much they cares about their people and countries. It would be bad if European government neglect their people to consider to spend millions on wars, etc from other countries.

Sorry, the European politicians and citizens have been sticking their heads in the sand for a long time. This stuff in the news (especially when the French fires were going) is starting to force everybody to wake up to it and no amount of "being nice" is going change things. The big problem is not recognizing that the majority of the immigrants are Muslims and don't really think in terms of Western thought. Some may adapt fine but many of them are alienated and don't want any part of it.