Flip and Exodus 4

[R2D2]

Hi Flip,

You suggested I started a new thread to continue the discussion from Skullchick's thread here AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - What is it so bad about CI?.

I don't dispute that Moses was probably slow of speech either due to lack of confidence or to an impediment, I'm not sure about deafness and blindness though as there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that he had difficulty hearing or seeing in other chapters. I'm not saying "no", I'm just not sure and the jury is open on that. He was obviously able to speak without devices though

However, I do dispute your interpretation of "signs". I've just read all of Exodus 4 in it's context on the internet and it's obvious that signs being spoken of refer to miracles. Look at all the verses before your quote and you will see it. In your own quote, it said that Moses would do the signs with a rod. How would a person sign with a rod?

I agree, you have to read the Bible very carefully. It's so easily taken out of context and the word "signs" has double meaning.

 

[flip]

Hi Flip,

You suggested I started a new thread to continue the discussion from Skullchick's thread here AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - What is it so bad about CI?.

I don't dispute that Moses was probably slow of speech either due to lack of confidence or to an impediment, I'm not sure about deafness and blindness though as there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that he had difficulty hearing or seeing in other chapters. I'm not saying "no", I'm just not sure and the jury is open on that. He was obviously able to speak without devices though

However, I do dispute your interpretation of "signs". I've just read all of Exodus 4 in it's context on the internet and it's obvious that signs being spoken of refer to miracles. Look at all the verses before your quote and you will see it. In your own quote, it said that Moses would do the signs with a rod. How would a person sign with a rod?

I agree, you have to read the Bible very carefully. It's so easily taken out of context and the word "signs" has double meaning.

Lol. Wonder how devices to speak with looks like.

The quote I pasted from the bible, was found here, and this place also mentions the disability of Moses.

BBC - Ouch! - Features

It's interesting that the hebrew bible have some differences from the english bible, and bible researchers still are restoring the true meaning of the words in the bible. If one is physically disabled, bringing along a wand will help, and using sign language will help. Signs can mean different things in different contexts, and what does it say in the hebrew bible?

Even this can be hard, because the meaning of the sentence translated requires cultural and historical knowledge. For example, the red sea did go dry at moses time, but in a different way that we have read in the bible so far.

First time I heard of the deaf Moses, was when learning about deaf history in Egypt, by a lecturer I had at the university, and will ask him for sources next time I met him.

 

[Raykat]

Lol. Wonder how devices to speak with looks like.

The quote I pasted from the bible, was found here, and this place also mentions the disability of Moses.

BBC - Ouch! - Features

It's interesting that the hebrew bible have some differences from the english bible, and bible researchers still are restoring the true meaning of the words in the bible. If one is physically disabled, bringing along a wand will help, and using sign language will help. Signs can mean different things in different contexts, and what does it say in the hebrew bible?

Even this can be hard, because the meaning of the sentence translated requires cultural and historical knowledge. For example, the red sea did go dry at moses time, but in a different way that we have read in the bible so far.

First time I heard of the deaf Moses, was when learning about deaf history in Egypt, by a lecturer I had at the university, and will ask him for sources next time I met him.

Moses was a shepherd before leading Israel out of Egypt, every shepherd carried a rod, useful for clambering over rough ground and rocks I woudl think.

I have just read Ex 14.21 Moses strecthed out his hand and the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind, The Israelites went thru with a wall of water on their left and a wall or water on their right
Verse 26, The Lord said to Moses, stretch out your hand, and the water went back to its place (my words for brevity)

nothing here about the seas drying up, simply the waters parting then returning to drown the egyptians.

I think every scholar of the Bible understands "signs" to be physical signs of Gods power, burning bushes, parting seas, making the blind to see again and the lame to walk. If it meant sign language there would be reference to it as communication.

As for Moses being deaf, the way I read Ex 14 is that he was not a fluent public speaker, there is only reference to speech. nothing about hearing, which I am sure woudl be mentioned if that was the case.

 

[sr171soars]

...
I think every scholar of the Bible understands "signs" to be physical signs of Gods power, burning bushes, parting seas, making the blind to see again and the lame to walk. If it meant sign language there would be reference to it as communication.

Agreed! I thought that was universal but I guess everybody has a spin on it.

As for Moses being deaf, the way I read Ex 14 is that he was not a fluent public speaker, there is only reference to speech. nothing about hearing, which I am sure would be mentioned if that was the case.

I concur. Many educated people don't like to speak in public as they have no confidence in themselves.

It seems like people forget how people were even 50 to 100 years ago concerning those who were deaf. They were invisible to society at large and not worth educating or bothering with for the most part. It would be even more true thousands of years ago. No Pharoah would ever bother bringing up Moses as a prince if he was found deaf. At best, he would be made a servant in the household.

Before anybody flames me for saying what I just said, I was in a deaf school for the first four years of my life. What was interesting to me that they just started to distinguish between the mentally handicapped and deaf about a decade or so before I went to the school. In other words, society took a long time to understand being deaf didn't mean you couldn't be educated.

 

[flip]

I have just read Ex 14.21 Moses strecthed out his hand and the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind, The Israelites went thru with a wall of water on their left and a wall or water on their right
Verse 26, The Lord said to Moses, stretch out your hand, and the water went back to its place (my words for brevity)
nothing here about the seas drying up, simply the waters parting then returning to drown the egyptians.

If you read the bible exactly word by word, not much would make sense. The red sea drying out is known to bible researchers, and belived by some people to be what the bible really is talking about.

I think every scholar of the Bible understands "signs" to be physical signs of Gods power, burning bushes, parting seas, making the blind to see again and the lame to walk. If it meant sign language there would be reference to it as communication.

It might interest you that many scholars disagree on what "signs" means the moment MOses is talking with God. Here is another interpretation from a jew, based on the hebrew text. He also explains how the english bibles gives a different impression, and the difference between the political and theological interpretion of "signs". It's too lengthy to post here, but click link below and go to "Sign Language".
http://tx002.urj.net/bulletin/01-2005.pdf

Whatever, I am no christian, and don't belive this or that, I am just pointing out the interesting dicussions around the bible. What's right and wrong is up to you to decide.

 

[flip]

It seems like people forget how people were even 50 to 100 years ago concerning those who were deaf. They were invisible to society at large and not worth educating or bothering with for the most part. It would be even more true thousands of years ago. No Pharoah would ever bother bringing up Moses as a prince if he was found deaf. At best, he would be made a servant in the household.

Roayal incest was the norm in ancient Egypt. Dwarfs had high positions, and several Pharaohs was probably handicapped. Several deaf people was known to have special connections to gods, and hieroglyphic writing was probably used to teach those people. Disability was viewed upon different from the Greec era for example. This correlate with Moses having special connections with God. I have heard more than once that sign language is mentioned in historical materials. Ancient egypt is one of the oldest sources of deaf people as a part of the society we know. I assume it should be no problem to let a deaf person into the royal family by a caring princess.

It can be argued that 200-150 years ago, deaf and bi-bi education was in a better state than it's now with more deaf teachers working in the field and better results, with deaf people really going far in the eurpean university system. Oralism was more widespread 100-50 years ago, as you are describing. To me it's a myth that everything goes forward and gets better.

 

[Raykat]

If you read the bible exactly word by word, not much would make sense. The red sea drying out is known to bible researchers, and belived by some people to be what the bible really is talking about.

It might interest you that many scholars disagree on what "signs" means the moment MOses is talking with God. Here is another interpretation from a jew, based on the hebrew text. He also explains how the english bibles gives a different impression, and the difference between the political and theological interpretion of "signs". It's too lengthy to post here, but click link below and go to "Sign Language".
http://tx002.urj.net/bulletin/01-2005.pdf

Whatever, I am no christian, and don't belive this or that, I am just pointing out the interesting dicussions around the bible. What's right and wrong is up to you to decide.

So your not a christian and dont believe anything you are writing about.....devils advocate?.....are you just looking for old time role models to boost your self esteem? I looked up the site you quoted in your first post and can see from reading that, the author is claiming Moses as a role model. I dont feel the need for role models, deaf or otherwise, my role in life is model enough....lol

 

[Raykat]

Roayal incest was the norm in ancient Egypt. Dwarfs had high positions, and several Pharaohs was probably handicapped. Several deaf people was known to have special connections to gods, and hieroglyphic writing was probably used to teach those people. Disability was viewed upon different from the Greec era for example. This correlate with Moses having special connections with God. I have heard more than once that sign language is mentioned in historical materials. Ancient egypt is one of the oldest sources of deaf people as a part of the society we know. I assume it should be no problem to let a deaf person into the royal family by a caring princess.

It can be argued that 200-150 years ago, deaf and bi-bi education was in a better state than it's now with more deaf teachers working in the field and better results, with deaf people really going far in the eurpean university system. Oralism was more widespread 100-50 years ago, as you are describing. To me it's a myth that everything goes forward and gets better.

And here is silly old me thinking the dwarves were the court jesters

 

[flip]

[/B]

So your not a christian and dont believe anything you are writing about.....devils advocate?.....are you just looking for old time role models to boost your self esteem? I looked up the site you quoted in your first post and can see from reading that, the author is claiming Moses as a role model. I dont feel the need for role models, deaf or otherwise, my role in life is model enough....lol

?? I am interested in history. One is not supposed to belive in history the same way one belive in God. The bible is a very valuable contribution to understanding the past and I enjoy the stories. Don't you like to know about deaf people in the history?

 

[Raykat]

Exodus chapter 2 describes the birth of Moses and his placing by his mother in a basket amongst the reeds on the banks of the Nile.

Verse 2. When she saw he was a fine child he hid him for 3 months.

Note a FINE child.

There is no mention in this chapter of any disabilities, deafness or otherwise in Moses. The reason he was first hidden then placed in the river was because Pharoah was killing the Hebrew boy children. Certainly not because he had any birth defects.

Moses lack of eloquence on the mount could of course be ascribed to awe at being confronted by his God.

 

[Raykat]

?? I am interested in history. One is not supposed to belive in history the same way one belive in God. The bible is a very valuable contribution to understanding the past and I enjoy the stories. Don't you like to know about deaf people in the history?

Can you explain your statement.."one is not supposed to believe in history the same way one believe in God" I dont quite understand what you are saying there.

It is well know that history is written from totally different perspectives, the victor has one version and the defeated another.

 

[flip]

Exodus chapter 2 describes the birth of Moses and his placing by his mother in a basket amongst the reeds on the banks of the Nile.

Verse 2. When she saw he was a fine child he hid him for 3 months.

Note a FINE child.

There is no mention in this chapter of any disabilities, deafness or otherwise in Moses. The reason he was first hidden then placed in the river was because Pharoah was killing the Hebrew boy children. Certainly not because he had any birth defects.

Moses lack of eloquence on the mount could of course be ascribed to awe at being confronted by his God.

Yes, this is another interpretion. Remember the difference between qaran and the bible. The qaran is the book of God, with his own words. The bible is a collection of texts from historicans, and should be read with that in mind. Was something left out or added later or lost in translation? We need more than one source to best guess what really did happens. That's why we have four differnt gospells to decide who Jesus was, and two different stories how god created earth, in one book, the bible.

 

[flip]

Can you explain your statement.."one is not supposed to believe in history the same way one believe in God" I dont quite understand what you are saying there.

It is well know that history is written from totally different perspectives, the victor has one version and the defeated another.

As one christian told me, beliving in god is to belive without asking questions. This would not work very well when studying history.

 

[Raykat]

Yes, this is another interpretion. Remember the difference between qaran and the bible. The qaran is the book of God, with his own words. The bible is a collection of texts from historicans, and should be read with that in mind. Was something left out or added later or lost in translation? We need more than one source to best guess what really did happens. That's why we have four differnt gospells to decide who Jesus was, and two different stories how god created earth, in one book, the bible.

Aha, now we are getting to the nitty gritty, the Koran. I do believe this thread was started as a response to a post by a Christian in another thread. The Bible being the Christian book of choice (preferably the King James version) how do you make the leap from Bible to Koran.........remember if you will that we are following up on a spat between Christians not Muslims.

A few posts back you said you were not christian, now you say the koran is the book of God, are you muslim?

 

[flip]

Aha, now we are getting to the nitty gritty, the Koran. I do believe this thread was started as a response to a post by a Christian in another thread. The Bible being the Christian book of choice (preferably the King James version) how do you make the leap from Bible to Koran.........remember if you will that we are following up on a spat between Christians not Muslims.

A few posts back you said you were not christian, now you say the koran is the book of God, are you muslim?

Sorry if I was unclear!

All I am saying, that one should have the bible as a historical document in mind when reading the Bible, regardless if it's the protestant, greek orthodox or catholic version. We still try to figure out who Jesus was, based on gospells in the bible and outside the bible and other historical sources. The same goes for Moses. According to the link I provided here, Moses are also described as a disabled person in the Koran.

The mistake some christians do, is they read a specifically version of the bible as words from God. This can be done with the Koran with no diccussions, but not the Bible. The Koran is belived to be delivered to the Prophet Muhammad(saaw) directly, and are the words of God and can't be translated to another language from arab. Priests don't say this about the Bible.

While I find many parts of Islam appealing, like I do with Christianity and Judaism, I am no true follower of neither Christianity nor Islam. Reciting the Koran don't make you a muslim. The brances whithin each religion is to me more diverse than the difference between those three Abrahamic religions.

But agree with you, now we are moving really far away from the topic of this post, the Exodus 4

 

[Raykat]

Sorry if I was unclear!

All I am saying, that one should have the bible as a historical document in mind when reading the Bible, regardless if it's the protestant, greek orthodox or catholic version. We still try to figure out who Jesus was, based on gospells in the bible and outside the bible and other historical sources. The same goes for Moses. According to the link I provided here, Moses are also described as a disabled person in the Koran.

The mistake some christians do, is they read a specifically version of the bible as words from God. This can be done with the Koran with no diccussions, but not the Bible. The Koran is belived to be delivered to the Prophet Muhammad(saaw) directly, and are the words of God and can't be translated to another language from arab. Priests don't say this about the Bible.

While I find many parts of Islam appealing, like I do with Christianity and Judaism, I am no true follower of neither Christianity nor Islam. Reciting the Koran don't make you a muslim. The brances whithin each religion is to me more diverse than the difference between those three Abrahamic religions.

But agree with you, now we are moving really far away from the topic of this post, the Exodus 4

You say that the Koran can be taken as the word of God , literally, however this premise only works if you believe in Muhammed as a prophet. The Bible as we know it was translated from scrolls, (Dead sea scrolls?) by man so something may be lost in translation, however believing it is the word of God I would think God would have had a hand in guiding the interpretation men put upon the orginal script.

You are right that the diversity within religions is greater than between actual religions themselves. I have always been fascinated by what people believe, even tho I may not agree with them.

If the koran is never put into other languages how do convertees get on with studying it?

 

[Boult]

R2D2, I don't mean to offend or upset you....

what does this thread have to do with HA/CI section? it mainly talk about exodus and disability. this thread could have been created in other section of AD but as per Alex's decree that any form of debate about religion are not allowed on AD since the religion section was locked up.

 

[flip]

You say that the Koran can be taken as the word of God , literally, however this premise only works if you believe in Muhammed as a prophet. The Bible as we know it was translated from scrolls, (Dead sea scrolls?) by man so something may be lost in translation, however believing it is the word of God I would think God would have had a hand in guiding the interpretation men put upon the orginal script.

You are right that the diversity within religions is greater than between actual religions themselves. I have always been fascinated by what people believe, even tho I may not agree with them.

If the koran is never put into other languages how do convertees get on with studying it?

I see your point, and agree it's a possibility that the Bible is the word from God. Translators disagree and dicussing on the meanings of words in the Bible don't make this book less holy than the Koran to me.

It's not illegal to translate the Koran, but it's a hot debate from my understanding. The arab langauge is in itself hard to translate to english, and this is perhaps the major reason some arab leaders have some issues with this, beside it's mentioned in the Koran that arab is the proper language for the Koran, and those word is exactly the words that was delivered by God. To many people, it's obvious impractical to ban translations, and that's perhaps why we see all those translations of Koran among us, used by both muslims and non-muslims.

This reminds of claims from some jews that the Torah, the book of moses, was delivered from God to Moses word by word, and can't be translated without loosing some of the messages from God directly.

 

[flip]

R2D2, I don't mean to offend or upset you....

what does this thread have to do with HA/CI section? it mainly talk about exodus and disability. this thread could have been created in other section of AD but as per Alex's decree that any form of debate about religion are not allowed on AD since the religion section was locked up.

Didn't knew religion was banned? There is still a subcategory on AD? This thread is perhaps more for those of us who can't stay on topic, than religious reasons

 

[Raykat]

Didn't knew religion was banned? There is still a subcategory on AD? This thread is perhaps more for those of us who can't stay on topic, than religious reasons

Neither did I but then I never go into the religion forum. Your right about off topic, but then my spoken conversations rarely stay on one topic so go figure.

By the way, what happened to R2D2, she started this thread then scarpered, probably just reading our inane comments and giggling to herself