Father Confused on Coclear Implant Decision

Ivan's Dad said:
I have never said choosing an implant for your child is an easy way out. It is indeed a fantastic amount of work. No matter what you choose for your deaf child, communication will always be a struggle.

Good luck to you, and I wish you all the best.
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You are so right. Kayla123 is referring to a few members that have said that in the past.

Thank you and good luck to you and your family!
 
Fragmenter said:
Q: why are anybody able to pick up sign language at a double digit age and NO older deaf people has ever been able to learn how to speak and hear correctly when they try?

A: because the window for hearing and speech skills DO close.

Easy as Dell.
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Once again, you are incorrect. There is a critical period for language development, and an optimal period for acquisition of a second language. The reason that older deaf have such a difficult time with oral skills is because they are visually oriented and they are being asked to do something totally unnatural for them. For more information regarding language acquisition I suggest you consult a developmental or cognitive psychology text.
 
:gpost:
shel90 said:
Ok ...look at my brother's situation and many of the students' at my work situation:
During their first few years of their lives, so much focus was put on developing speech and hearing skills but for some weird reason, they werent unable to make sense of spoken English. I wish I knew why and maybe all these problems can be solved but simply put, there are so many deaf children even with HAs or CIs who have been unable to pick up the auditory cues. Because learning spoken English or any other spoken language was the primary goal, they werent exposed to a visual language so by the age of 5, their language development have become so delayed so when they came to my school or my brother went to his deaf school, at the age of 5, they had to learn ASL as if they were 1 year old and then have to learn to read and write English which is a total separate language. That doubles the challenge for the child and from my experience, I have seen so many children lose motivation to learn cuz the expectations become so difficult for them. That is why I teach at a slow pace for my students cuz their language development is at least 3 years delayed. If they had been exposed to sign language, would learning how to read and write for them be easier? We would never know. I just dont like to take that risk on children cuz it is not fair for them to struggle for the rest of their lives. My brother struggled with reading and writing and he still struggles with his writing to this day.
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sr171soars said:
The oral or manual approach in the sense of "empowering" somebody is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. Sure, either of them provide a means of communication but there is more to it than that. One is still "stuck" with the fact that the manual approach (a.k.a "sign") is not self documenting in of itself. One has to "translate" sign into some form of written language which is not native to it. So, there is the juxiposition of having to go between two languages. Some can master that game but most have trouble as the thought processes are different as night and day similar to any two widely divergent spoken languages (such as English and Chinese). A big part of that problem is the educational system (lack of empathsis to force signers to truly master a written language that would go a long way to balance things). Another part of that is there are subtle differences in the information that an oral language brings that sign cannot hope to duplicate. The nunances of voice is incredible and it is a "language" of its own. One can't even write that stuff down without having to spend more time in explaining all that jazz for a richly worded sentence full of implicit and loaded meanings.
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A)Sign uses as many subtle nuances as to meaning as does any spoken language.

B) How do you then account for the number of so called oral successes who still have great difficulty in mastering written English?
C) How do you acccount for the fact that native signers who are educated in a signing environment have higher literacy scores than do oral children educated in a mainstream envirnoment. This is true not only today, but historically.
D) Mastery of any language during the critical period insures easier acquisition of a second language at a later point in time. The key word here is critical period.
E) One has difficulty writing in ASL because ASL never was, and never will be a written language.
 
Cloggy said:
Excellent,
Do not rush your decision..

But do find out, medically, how much your son hears...
There must be ways to map his hearing. ABR, ERA etc.

And again, communication is the most important thing. If sign has started, do not even think about stopping it. Not even if you made a decision to go for CI.
We had started sign with our daughter way before she got an implant, and knowing sign meant that she was allways able to express herself while she learned to hear and speak.

Signlanguage will help him develop parts of the brain that would be left out when there's no communication..
Read to him, Read with him, and let him read to you...
It's magic !!
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We have had an abr test right at the beginning. He has had many hearing tests in the sound booth both aided and unaided. We have a pretty good idea of what he can percieve.

However it is to my understanding that these test results have little to do with a child's ability to attain oral language skills. I have personally met deaf individuals with worse test results showing very promising oral skills and also some individuals who's test results show better than Ivan's who do not learn to speak.

There seems to be more to learning language than just hearing certain frequencies at certain decibel levels.
 
Reading

Cloggy,

Also we are a reading family. Ivan's older brother loves books. Every night we must read three and he is learning how to read and loves to read along.

Ivan we read books however due to the fact that he can not hear as much he seems to rush through the books, only looking at the pictures.

This whole situation is so hard to cope with. How to teach reading skills to a deaf child. Each letter represents a sound for gosh sakes will it ever make sense to him.

Ivan just ran out of his room (he should be sleeping) I let him sit beside me and I typed big words into the computer and then made the sign for each one. He was really paying attention!
 
Victorias mom said:
You are so right. Kayla123 is referring to a few members that have said that in the past.

Thank you and good luck to you and your family!
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Thanks Victorias mom. I'm sorry you thought that i was referring to you Ivan's dad. I was referring to previous quotes. It is a big decision and you and only you knows whats best for son. Best of luck to you and your family.
 
Nothing is written in stone only in a database.

Spock said:
Hello again!

Please read my post at http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...326-i-am-mad-i-have-ci-sigh-9.html#post716634 ...

I changed my mind about being anti-CI, and you'll find out why.
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Minds can be changed and my decision from earlier is not certain. There are still many doubts about this in my mind. Early next week we have another meeting with the cochlear implant team. Also we will be visiting the people who will be supporting us after the implant if we choose to proceed down that path.

It is strange thou. Two characters from '70s space shows can be so insightful.

Thank you Spock and R2D2.
 
kayla123 said:
Did you go through a lot of audio verbal therapy? Also,did your parents work with you at home alot? I know that without this type of extensive therapy, the implant will not work. You also have to remember that you got your implant some time ago...technology and channels for the CI have gotten much better since then.
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Kayla, sorry for not answering your question sooner.

I wasn't taught the importance of speech or education... I know this seems hard to comprehend, it should be common sense; but part of it had to do with my socially delayed development, apart from my intelligence. That's why I didn't take CI and speech training seriously until I was about 16 years old.

I went through infrequent audio/verbal training nearly every year while in school, but didn't even care... perhaps it would've helped if my parents had emphasized more why it was important to have speech capabilities... I also felt that the speech instructors I saw didn't know how to teach me to speak. They never began by teaching me how to say consonants and vowels individually, they always started with practicing on words and phrases.

Then when I was 19 years old I finally understood the importance of being able to speak! I went to a speech institute for training, and the speech instructor was an elderly man who owned the institute. He took a different approach than my other speech instructors, by working with me on my consonants and vowels, then words. While we were working on my consonants and vowels, he would correct me on about half the letters! I had to learn about short and long vowels for what seemed like the first time! But I paid for speech training directly out my pocket because my VR counselor refused to help.

My mom did some speech work with me at home when I was young, like around 4-5 years old. After that, she didn't do anything at home because I began receiving speech training at school. My mom wasn't very good at making decisions... and my dad never helped me with speech, ever.

My first CI was a 1-channel CI. Not sure of brand. Probably Cochlear. My second CI is a 24-channel Nucleus CI. However, you should read my post at http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...326-i-am-mad-i-have-ci-sigh-9.html#post716673 to understand where I'm coming from. I still have that 24-channel Nucleus CI, and have not had any CI training in 8 years, because I don't know where to start. I have come a very long way since then, regarding my social development (which had to be addressed first). I am now capable of coherently expressing my thoughts and feelings, and capable of a great many other things I wasn't capable of before.

Now that I've caught up, it seems now is the time for me to get CI training, because my 24-channel nucleus (in which only 8 out of 24 electrodes worked last time) still has unknown and unfulfilled potential. I've never had sufficient training nor support with it and I have no idea where to start. How do I pay for this? I don't have VR support yet (next year I should, once I go back to school). Yet for a deaf person like me, it seems important that since I'm exposed to hearing people all the time and understand the importance of learning to speak, there should be a way that I can somehow obtain speech therapy without having to worry so much about money. I see speech and CI as practical tools, not something that will take away my deaf individuality.

I dislike going to restaurants and other places and always having to ask for a piece of paper so I can write down things. Strangers often approach me and say something, but I have no way to communicate with them, without any paper and pencil. I also either want to start a business or be a physical therapist someday; however in the business world, most deaf people use their voice to communicate with their clients. In fact, I already found a Ph.D dissertion with specific statistics on all of this.

I have made new deaf friends and I am fluent in PSE... halfway in my ASL by now. I plan to be fully fluent at ASL, but I also want to have speech and CI training to get maximum benefit out of the environment. I hope you understand my background and the difficulties I've had in getting proper speech training. I feel that with speech and CI training, I could use my assets to help out deaf people through being a deaf advocate who helps hearing people learn more about deaf people. If you or anyone else can offer me any help in obtaining free speech and CI training, I would be grateful.

I did contact the Hearing Loss Association of America (HLAA) a while ago, but it seemed they knew of no way for me to get free speech or CI training.
 
Spock, do you have insurance? Or Medicaid/Medicare? Try seeing if your insurance will pay for speech therapy. I am currently in speech therapy paid for by Medicaid and Medicare.
 
Wait a sec, Greema and Deafskeptic.............. before everyone starts rolling their eyes at me.........this ISN"T your typical case.
If this was a parent of a kid who had access to really good CI docs or was in an area where the docs see a lot of dhh kids (like St. Louis or near an oral or Deaf high population area) I wouldn't even be posting here.
However, note a couple of things: Ivansdad says that they are in an area with not too many services. In that sort of sitution, even at a CI evalution center,(which in some areas may just service mostly adults, rather then having a speciality with kids) you might get not exactly the best or most expert opinons from doctors. Ivansdad, are you at a university/ children's hoispital rather then a generic somewhat specialized, but not as specialized as you need sort of place?
Not trying to be anti CI.........just trying to throw out ideas for Ivansdad to investigate.
Did you read where he said that his son has only been wearing hearing aids for 10 months? His son is 2.5 yes, but his "hearing age" is still only ten months old. Ivansdad..........is he babbling or making any spoken sounds? Even deaf kids babble.........not babbling is a sign that something more complicated might be going on.
I really think that getting him evaluated for apraxia might be a good idea.
Oh, and if he's unaidable in his "profound" ear......why not? I mean look at it this way...........he's got nothing to lose in that ear.....and hopefully at least he might be able to localize sound with that ear........
 
deafdyke said:
and hopefully at least he might be able to localize sound with that ear........
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This is very much a possibility -- especially if Ivan wears a HA in his nonimplanted ear. Remember, there are varying levels of success when it comes to the CI. Some are able to use the phone, understand speech without lipreading and/or hear environmental sounds. Being able to localize/hear environmental sounds can be just as important (if not more) than being able to understand speech.
 
Ivan's Dad said:
We have had an abr test right at the beginning. He has had many hearing tests in the sound booth both aided and unaided. We have a pretty good idea of what he can percieve.

However it is to my understanding that these test results have little to do with a child's ability to attain oral language skills. I have personally met deaf individuals with worse test results showing very promising oral skills and also some individuals who's test results show better than Ivan's who do not learn to speak.

There seems to be more to learning language than just hearing certain frequencies at certain decibel levels.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! There are many cognitive and perceptual factors that come into play with a deaf child's ability to develop oral skills. On top of this are environmental concerns.
 
Babbling

deafdyke said:
Wait a sec, Greema and Deafskeptic.............. before everyone starts rolling their eyes at me.........this ISN"T your typical case.
If this was a parent of a kid who had access to really good CI docs or was in an area where the docs see a lot of dhh kids (like St. Louis or near an oral or Deaf high population area) I wouldn't even be posting here.
However, note a couple of things: Ivansdad says that they are in an area with not too many services. In that sort of sitution, even at a CI evalution center,(which in some areas may just service mostly adults, rather then having a speciality with kids) you might get not exactly the best or most expert opinons from doctors. Ivansdad, are you at a university/ children's hoispital rather then a generic somewhat specialized, but not as specialized as you need sort of place?
Not trying to be anti CI.........just trying to throw out ideas for Ivansdad to investigate.
Did you read where he said that his son has only been wearing hearing aids for 10 months? His son is 2.5 yes, but his "hearing age" is still only ten months old. Ivansdad..........is he babbling or making any spoken sounds? Even deaf kids babble.........not babbling is a sign that something more complicated might be going on.
I really think that getting him evaluated for apraxia might be a good idea.
Oh, and if he's unaidable in his "profound" ear......why not? I mean look at it this way...........he's got nothing to lose in that ear.....and hopefully at least he might be able to localize sound with that ear........
Click to expand...

Ivan has been babbling quite alot lately. He seems to be babbling more and more. When we do our listening games he tries to bark like a dog or make the other sounds that we use.

He does wear an aid on both ears and at times acts like he can percieve where a sound is coming from but that could also be his periferal vision.

As for our CI docs they are not totally in the dark ages and are located in quite a large community. They operate out of the Children's Hospital and seem to be quite knowlegeable. We live on an island and need to take a ferry to get there. It is not far but the trip always ends up to be a half day to get there and then a half day to get back. It is hard to make the trip in one day.
 
Gigabyte said:
Hi Ivan's Dad,
I would never tell anyone they or their child should get a Cochlear Implant (I am not qualified that recommendation should only come from a CI Team) and I hate to see others who express strong opinions either way. This is a huge decision for you and your family, I know it is not an easy one so don't let any one person or message overtly influence you.
Mike "Ears Hopin" P
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Hi Mike

:cheers: Long time no see. :wave: :wave: We are planning on riding up to your area(god's country) again this summer. My wife is doing fairly well all considering:pissed: . I am with you on this, I really hate to see others(especially moderators:rl:) express strong opinions either way about CI's.Only the CI team:deal: has the credentials.No one person or message should overtly influence anyone either way. The CI team should be one you respect and trust. If you dont trust that they have your best interest in mind then it's time for another PROFESSIONAL opinion. Do watch out for Moderators who make stupid comments like:jaw: "with a CI you have unlimited possibilites" They are setting the path for unreal expectations. CI's are hard work. They are not for sissy. I still can't believe how bias moderators are, Not only about CI but the prejudices they have toward others.Do gooders with an over high opinion of themselves.
Our best to Coffee and Erik.
K&D
OOPs dont post my IP address please. Still having many problems with that
 
Oh, OK..............that's good that you're hooked up with a Children's Hoispital CI program. They tend to have really good resources. Maybe you could have Ivan seen by a speech therapist and an occupational therapist just to rule out the possibilty of apraxia being a significent contribauting factor to his speech issues. I mean it's a possibilty. I know kids with unilateral loss who have very significent speech delays due to apraxia.
How profound is Ivan in his profound ear? Hey...............maybe a good idea might be to have a day when Ivan only wears his hearing aid in his profound ear just so you guys can actually see in a real world sense how well he hears or doesn't hear with that ear. Maybe that might help you decide.
 
Ivan's Dad said:
Cloggy,

Also we are a reading family. Ivan's older brother loves books. Every night we must read three and he is learning how to read and loves to read along.

Ivan we read books however due to the fact that he can not hear as much he seems to rush through the books, only looking at the pictures.

This whole situation is so hard to cope with. How to teach reading skills to a deaf child. Each letter represents a sound for gosh sakes will it ever make sense to him.

Ivan just ran out of his room (he should be sleeping) I let him sit beside me and I typed big words into the computer and then made the sign for each one. He was really paying attention!
Click to expand...

Check out the availabilty of Signed English books. I had several of these for my son, and got them from Gaulladet Press. They are traditional childrens stories, but incorporate illustrations of the signs with the printed words. It is a wonderful tool for pre-reading skills.
 
Spock said:
Kayla, sorry for not answering your question sooner.

I wasn't taught the importance of speech or education... I know this seems hard to comprehend, it should be common sense; but part of it had to do with my socially delayed development, apart from my intelligence. That's why I didn't take CI and speech training seriously until I was about 16 years old.

I went through infrequent audio/verbal training nearly every year while in school, but didn't even care... perhaps it would've helped if my parents had emphasized more why it was important to have speech capabilities... I also felt that the speech instructors I saw didn't know how to teach me to speak. They never began by teaching me how to say consonants and vowels individually, they always started with practicing on words and phrases.

Then when I was 19 years old I finally understood the importance of being able to speak! I went to a speech institute for training, and the speech instructor was an elderly man who owned the institute. He took a different approach than my other speech instructors, by working with me on my consonants and vowels, then words. While we were working on my consonants and vowels, he would correct me on about half the letters! I had to learn about short and long vowels for what seemed like the first time! But I paid for speech training directly out my pocket because my VR counselor refused to help.

My mom did some speech work with me at home when I was young, like around 4-5 years old. After that, she didn't do anything at home because I began receiving speech training at school. My mom wasn't very good at making decisions... and my dad never helped me with speech, ever.

My first CI was a 1-channel CI. Not sure of brand. Probably Cochlear. My second CI is a 24-channel Nucleus CI. However, you should read my post at http://www.alldeaf.com/hearing-aids...326-i-am-mad-i-have-ci-sigh-9.html#post716673 to understand where I'm coming from. I still have that 24-channel Nucleus CI, and have not had any CI training in 8 years, because I don't know where to start. I have come a very long way since then, regarding my social development (which had to be addressed first). I am now capable of coherently expressing my thoughts and feelings, and capable of a great many other things I wasn't capable of before.

Now that I've caught up, it seems now is the time for me to get CI training, because my 24-channel nucleus (in which only 8 out of 24 electrodes worked last time) still has unknown and unfulfilled potential. I've never had sufficient training nor support with it and I have no idea where to start. How do I pay for this? I don't have VR support yet (next year I should, once I go back to school). Yet for a deaf person like me, it seems important that since I'm exposed to hearing people all the time and understand the importance of learning to speak, there should be a way that I can somehow obtain speech therapy without having to worry so much about money. I see speech and CI as practical tools, not something that will take away my deaf individuality.

I dislike going to restaurants and other places and always having to ask for a piece of paper so I can write down things. Strangers often approach me and say something, but I have no way to communicate with them, without any paper and pencil. I also either want to start a business or be a physical therapist someday; however in the business world, most deaf people use their voice to communicate with their clients. In fact, I already found a Ph.D dissertion with specific statistics on all of this.

I have made new deaf friends and I am fluent in PSE... halfway in my ASL by now. I plan to be fully fluent at ASL, but I also want to have speech and CI training to get maximum benefit out of the environment. I hope you understand my background and the difficulties I've had in getting proper speech training. I feel that with speech and CI training, I could use my assets to help out deaf people through being a deaf advocate who helps hearing people learn more about deaf people. If you or anyone else can offer me any help in obtaining free speech and CI training, I would be grateful.

I did contact the Hearing Loss Association of America (HLAA) a while ago, but it seemed they knew of no way for me to get free speech or CI training.
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I see you had alot to deal with when you were younger but it seems you know exactly what you want now. Do you have any type of insurance or medicaid? I hope it all works out for you,especially the idea of being a deaf advocate.Educating the hearing about the dhh is a wonderful thing. I myself never knew anything about people who are dhh or the deaf culture until my daughter was born.Being hearing, not to sound ignorant or dumb but i never even knew there was a deaf culture. I will have to get back to you on ways of getting free speech therapy.I do remember Kayla's therapist telling me about that but you do have to qualify. I'm not sure what the maximum income you could make is but i will find the info for you. It all started with a very wealthy family who's son was born dhh and they saw how well the speech therapy helped and wanted to help other dhh people who wanted speech therapy but could'nt afford it or had no insurance so they set up a foundation. I will call her tomorrow and will fill you in as soon i hear from her.
 
Ivan's Dad said:
Cloggy,

Also we are a reading family. Ivan's older brother loves books. Every night we must read three and he is learning how to read and loves to read along.

Ivan we read books however due to the fact that he can not hear as much he seems to rush through the books, only looking at the pictures.

This whole situation is so hard to cope with. How to teach reading skills to a deaf child. Each letter represents a sound for gosh sakes will it ever make sense to him.

Ivan just ran out of his room (he should be sleeping) I let him sit beside me and I typed big words into the computer and then made the sign for each one. He was really paying attention!
Click to expand...

There is the sandwich method that deaf parents use when reading to their child. They would fingerspell the word, then sign the word, and then fingerspell it. I use that with my first graders and now they are doing a lot better than they did in august with reading and writing. One of my students had a sight word vocabulary of about 10 words in August and today he wrote this sentence (on his own without ANY visual cues nor support from me) "The tiger is and black gold." Only made one grammatical error but not tooo bad considering he had no concept of the English sentences in August. I do so much of the sandwich method with them when reading books to them.

My mom said that she read to me since I was a baby even though the doctors told her that it would be a waste of her time since I wouldnt understand what she is saying. Thank god she ignored their so-called advice and read to me every night and that was how my love for reading got started. Read to your son the most natural way u feel most comfortable with even though u think he doesnt know what he is saying. It never hurts to try. :)
 
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