Experiences with my daughter.

[Bear]

Grummer,

This is in reply to your earlier post. Even though I may have my reasons for children NOT to be implanted. I cannot let that cloud my judgement of other parents that do.

It is that attitude that makes the children with CI's feel that they are *unwanted* in our world. Remember, I too, have a CI. And I too face a lot of discrimination.

Instead of vilianifying *sp?* people and parents that choose the CI, what I wish is to have more parents like Cloggy, that care for the right reasons lead the way for those types of parents that cant accept an *imperfect* child.

Cloggy does not advocate a CI in every single child, I have seen him post that type of statement that he is not interested in that.


But the truth is, is that his Lotte is a happy child. It is very evident in every picture posted.

We need to stop villianifying the good parents and start getting them to lead the type of parents who cant accept their children.

Cloggy, does know sign and has learned it and USED it with Lotte. Although, his and my view is different I dont choose to argue it. Because arguing it is not gonna change his view and it will not change mine.

I believe sign and oral should be done at the same time. Cloggy does not. Is our going round and round on that topic going to budge either one's view?

Just because the focus is on speech does not make one an outright Audist. If that is the case then hey, wake up, I can talk really well. I will never give up my speech, just to make someone else happy. I will never give up my sign to make someone else happy. ANY child loves to learn new things, whether it be speech, sign, french, or the lifelong question of where do babies come from?

It is in my experience as a mother, that there is no real forcing a child to do something against their will. Ever tried? Trust me, its easier pulling a tooth out of lion's mouth, than it is to force a child to do something they dont wanna do already.

Many people here are not against speech, the advocate both speech and sign to be use together. That is an ideal world. Unfortunately, for those of us that believe that way, it is not always so.

The CI is here to stay, like it or not. It is only going to be our attitude towards the CI and a CI user that determines, whether if a CI'er will turn to the deaf community eventually or not.

Luckily for me, I have a great group of friends, both offline and ONLINE, that accepts me for the way I am. CI and all. Unfortunately, there are many that dont. They tell me, your not a DEAF person, you are a CI person, you prefer the hearing world to our world and that world is where you should be then. They tell me I should not be there with them, looking down on them.

This is the type of attitude I wanna stomp out. Yes, I may be a CI user. But the truth is, I am deaf like you. I sign like most of you. The only difference is, I have a CI and I speak.

Cloggy,

You can say that parents like you are the norm and not the rare exception. Maybe on this board that holds true. But in real life, the sad fact is, you are the rare exception.

It is uncomprehensible that these parents are spending all this money on the CI and not putting in the effort to a parent like you Cloggy. But it is very true they do. They think to implant means an automatic cure.

I know you will argue that the counseling part of the CI will stop people like that, but it doesnt. When I was implanted, the only thing they asked me as part of the evaluation was what are your expectations? Any one can lie and make them low to get accepted. There is no real psyche evaluation done.

Sadly, there will always be parents that cannot accept a child for who they are. It is not only related to deafness. There are many parents that cant accept a blind child, a autistic child, and the list goes on.

Overall I would say this message board is the rare exception when it comes to parents that accept their child for who they are.

In fact it does go the other way too. I have seen deaf parents not able to accept their hearing children. I know it is hard to believe that, but yes, it does happen.

Speech is not the villian here. Speech is a useful tool to have, if one wants to try or can try. The real villian, is too many deaf kids being raised by parents that dont care enough to even try to learn sign or become involved with their child.

Sadly that happened alot in the older generations. This generation is a generation of hope. I believe with the right kind of attitude towards these kids, that they will go far in securing better deaf rights. Especially, knowing both sides of the fence.

 

[jillio]

Yea, I know...it is like making hearing kids have no contact with other hearing kids which many deaf parents dont do to their hearing kids anyway. Imagine the uproar it would cause if deaf parents completely isolate their hearing kids from other hearing people. Heck social services may even come and take their kids away but of course for hearing parents to do that to their deaf children, it is ok cuz being deaf is not "normal" anyway. :roll:

Sad, isn't it?

 

[Kaitin]

The more I think the more I change my opinion. If I continue, I will become a radical!

After a lot of thought I think people should use the communication style comfortable to them, not what to others levels or expectiations. All day I worry about communication and I want a place to stop worrying. I spent years and years (and will continue) working on English syntax, spelling, pronounciation - I want a place where I can write without work. I don't mean to not make sense or write confusing junk, but I don't want to think "where does this word go?" "is this syntax proper?" "is it this word or that?" "I will reread over and over" etc. My first several posts I worried, used spell/grammar check in Word, asked my roommate for prooffreads. Too much work. This is a forum for HoH/deaf and (I think) hearing people who support HoH/deaf. I don't think people wouldn't understand my writing. If they don't understand a post, they can ask.

Fuzzy, I maybe am going backward in your opinion! But sincerely thank you for making me think.

 

[jillio]

Inclusion in the family experience is one of the goals of Cued Speech, accomodating and meeting the needs of the child through a visual and tactile system.

How exactly, is CS a tactile system? And what about inclusion of the family in the child's experience? CS more readily addresses needs fromthe parent's perspective of looking for a quick, easy method of communication. That can hardly be considered full inclusion in experience.

 

[R2D2]

Hi Bear,

I agree with you. The nature of the parents themselves is important, rather than the actual decision they make whether to implant or go the sign/deaf school route.

I've heard so many stories of families where the child signs through the deaf school and the parent don't bother to learn it or do not learn it to any great level of fluency because its all too hard. So they don't communicate with their children. This is severe neglect in my books, since healthy psychological development depends a lot on the relationship we have with our parent. I know such families exist everywhere regardless of the communication choice but sometimes I feel that at least parents who opt for the inclusion by speech model actually want to communicate with them and have a close relationship.

I do understand the concerns that people have that the deaf child is being made to compromise a lot and expected to fit in with the family rather than the family accommodating the child's difference. That is good food for thought. However, I would rather that deaf children were in families where they were cared for and cherished regardless of the language choice that was made.

Many hearing people do not feel they fit into their families either, feel different in some way and made to conform e.g. a child might feel at odds with a conservative, religious family or they might be adopted and so on. Those sort of feelings are common to the human experience. Sometimes we think that we have a special injustice that we didn't have a normal life unlike the majority but in actual fact, the more I've got to know hearing people from a wide range of backgrounds I really know that this isn't the case.

 

[jillio]

Hi Bear,

I agree with you. The nature of the parents themselves is important, rather than the actual decision they make whether to implant or go the sign/deaf school route.

I've heard so many stories of families where the child signs through the deaf school and the parent don't bother to learn it or do not learn it to any great level of fluency because its all too hard. So they don't communicate with their children. This is severe neglect in my books, since healthy psychological development depends a lot on the relationship we have with our parent. I know such families exist everywhere regardless of the communication choice but sometimes I feel that at least parents who opt for the inclusion by speech model actually want to communicate with them and have a close relationship.

I do understand the concerns that people have that the deaf child is being made to compromise a lot and expected to fit in with the family rather than the family accommodating the child's difference. That is good food for thought. However, I would rather that deaf children were in families where they were cared for and cherished regardless of the language choice that was made.

Many hearing people do not feel they fit into their families either, feel different in some way and made to conform e.g. a child might feel at odds with a conservative, religious family or they might be adopted and so on. Those sort of feelings are common to the human experience. Sometimes we think that we have a special injustice that we didn't have a normal life unlike the majority but in actual fact, the more I've got to know hearing people from a wide range of backgrounds I really know that this isn't the case.

Agree with you on your points R2, but just wanted to point out that while differences between parent and child are not only common, but actually a healthy part of the developmental stages, a difference in values or perspective has much less of a detrimental effect than lack of communication.

 

[R2D2]

Agree with you on your points R2, but just wanted to point out that while differences between parent and child are not only common, but actually a healthy part of the developmental stages, a difference in values or perspective has much less of a detrimental effect than lack of communication.

Good point. Any situation where the parent and child have a communication mismatch is not very good for their relationship or the child's development.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Good point. Any situation where the parent and child have a communication mismatch is not very good for their relationship or the child's development.

Unfortunlately yes, I has to agree with you on this.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Read the whole posts after my last post yesterday and would say that I agree with most posters.

I am parent of 2 hearing boys and don't keep them away from hearing children and atompshere because I am deaf. No, I would never do that to them.

We send my hearing children to speech development when they were toddlers because I accept the fact that they are hearing and want them contact their own world and what they are.

No matter either I feel uncomfortable at hearing world or not... but think my children's interest.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Fuzzy, I maybe am going backward in your opinion! But sincerely thank you for making me think.

FYI, it's not a different syntax or grammar or whatever that bothers me and make discussions difficult - because I DO understand what is being said with no difficulty- it's the other way around!
What bothers me - it's blind stubbornness of an individual who is being told hundred times over and over "this is not what I mean" and yet ignores that completely.

It doesn't matter HOW you write - it matters if you LISTEN. For me, you can write right to left, bottom to top - I will manage, and if not I will ask you - but for god's sake when I am telling you you didn't get my point- believe me.

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I am parent of 2 hearing boys and don't keep them away from hearing children and atompshere because I am deaf. No, I would never do that to them.

I really don't know how's that even possible. You live in a hearing world - whichever way you turn it's sound sound sound. Even if you kept your kids at home- there is TV, radio, computer - whatever,
As soon as child set its foot outside - there are hearing children and adults everywhere...

Fuzzy

 

[Grummer]

The more I think the more I change my opinion. If I continue, I will become a radical!

After a lot of thought I think people should use the communication style comfortable to them, not what to others levels or expectiations. All day I worry about communication and I want a place to stop worrying. I spent years and years (and will continue) working on English syntax, spelling, pronounciation - I want a place where I can write without work. I don't mean to not make sense or write confusing junk, but I don't want to think "where does this word go?" "is this syntax proper?" "is it this word or that?" "I will reread over and over" etc. My first several posts I worried, used spell/grammar check in Word, asked my roommate for prooffreads. Too much work. This is a forum for HoH/deaf and (I think) hearing people who support HoH/deaf. I don't think people wouldn't understand my writing. If they don't understand a post, they can ask.

Fuzzy, I maybe am going backward in your opinion! But sincerely thank you for making me think.

Kaitin,
I appreciate your concerns, I have the similar problem. It's like we almost have a Deaf English, at a higher level somewhere. Its horrible to be always monitering yourself on the written skills. Im not perfect.. and yet I often use Word, Not in All-Deafs, but in essays, writing letters.....and i get frustrated for i dont have anyone nearby to proof read, from the lack of that, I get to feel REALLY lonely...cuz its like imprisoned in your own lack of grasp of "English" shudders
yeah and I agree get a good communication style to suit and share without worry about 'perfectionism'

cheers

 

[Grummer]

Grummer,

This is in reply to your earlier post. Even though I may have my reasons for children NOT to be implanted. I cannot let that cloud my judgement of other parents that do.

It is that attitude that makes the children with CI's feel that they are *unwanted* in our world. Remember, I too, have a CI. And I too face a lot of discrimination.

Instead of vilianifying *sp?* people and parents that choose the CI, what I wish is to have more parents like Cloggy, that care for the right reasons lead the way for those types of parents that cant accept an *imperfect* child.

Cloggy does not advocate a CI in every single child, I have seen him post that type of statement that he is not interested in that.


But the truth is, is that his Lotte is a happy child. It is very evident in every picture posted.

We need to stop villianifying the good parents and start getting them to lead the type of parents who cant accept their children.

Cloggy, does know sign and has learned it and USED it with Lotte. Although, his and my view is different I dont choose to argue it. Because arguing it is not gonna change his view and it will not change mine.

I believe sign and oral should be done at the same time. Cloggy does not. Is our going round and round on that topic going to budge either one's view?

Just because the focus is on speech does not make one an outright Audist. If that is the case then hey, wake up, I can talk really well. I will never give up my speech, just to make someone else happy. I will never give up my sign to make someone else happy. ANY child loves to learn new things, whether it be speech, sign, french, or the lifelong question of where do babies come from?

It is in my experience as a mother, that there is no real forcing a child to do something against their will. Ever tried? Trust me, its easier pulling a tooth out of lion's mouth, than it is to force a child to do something they dont wanna do already.

Many people here are not against speech, the advocate both speech and sign to be use together. That is an ideal world. Unfortunately, for those of us that believe that way, it is not always so.

The CI is here to stay, like it or not. It is only going to be our attitude towards the CI and a CI user that determines, whether if a CI'er will turn to the deaf community eventually or not.

Luckily for me, I have a great group of friends, both offline and ONLINE, that accepts me for the way I am. CI and all. Unfortunately, there are many that dont. They tell me, your not a DEAF person, you are a CI person, you prefer the hearing world to our world and that world is where you should be then. They tell me I should not be there with them, looking down on them.

This is the type of attitude I wanna stomp out. Yes, I may be a CI user. But the truth is, I am deaf like you. I sign like most of you. The only difference is, I have a CI and I speak.

Cloggy,

You can say that parents like you are the norm and not the rare exception. Maybe on this board that holds true. But in real life, the sad fact is, you are the rare exception.

It is uncomprehensible that these parents are spending all this money on the CI and not putting in the effort to a parent like you Cloggy. But it is very true they do. They think to implant means an automatic cure.

I know you will argue that the counseling part of the CI will stop people like that, but it doesnt. When I was implanted, the only thing they asked me as part of the evaluation was what are your expectations? Any one can lie and make them low to get accepted. There is no real psyche evaluation done.

Sadly, there will always be parents that cannot accept a child for who they are. It is not only related to deafness. There are many parents that cant accept a blind child, a autistic child, and the list goes on.

Overall I would say this message board is the rare exception when it comes to parents that accept their child for who they are.

In fact it does go the other way too. I have seen deaf parents not able to accept their hearing children. I know it is hard to believe that, but yes, it does happen.

Speech is not the villian here. Speech is a useful tool to have, if one wants to try or can try. The real villian, is too many deaf kids being raised by parents that dont care enough to even try to learn sign or become involved with their child.

Sadly that happened alot in the older generations. This generation is a generation of hope. I believe with the right kind of attitude towards these kids, that they will go far in securing better deaf rights. Especially, knowing both sides of the fence.

Nice reply, yes I understand, what you wrote of is, Deafism, that has to be dealt with , and I agree! Audism as well, but also there's a lot of overuse of that often misunderstood term which created hatred. I to, have suffered the snub from the Deaf community too.
And I kind of have to acknowldge Cloggy's is dedicated to put efforts to raise Lotte , this is admirable. However I have some reservation on the stauchness benig displayed upon, toward strictly oralism , that itself I disagree- Though yes and I already knew, he did the research, even read Harlan Lane's Mask of the benevolence book, and so on even learnt some sign language. while this is commendable , it is sadden to see how its took its toll or the prevalence of the dominant world-view were more compelling for Cloggy's wish for his girl. I wish them the best, but somehow I hope it works out for them. But still i have to agree to disagree on which orientation Cloggy choose.

Perhaps you should read about Deafhood, I think you might find some it of some interest, in a way I think you'd like it
Cheers

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I really don't know how's that even possible. You live in a hearing world - whichever way you turn it's sound sound sound. Even if you kept your kids at home- there is TV, radio, computer - whatever,
As soon as child set its foot outside - there are hearing children and adults everywhere...

Fuzzy

It does the same with deaf children and adults as well.

I don't beleive in keep my children away from what they are to consider me and my world... I would accept and involve where my children come from when they are different as me.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

It does the same with deaf children and adults as well.
I don't beleive in keep my children away from what they are to consider me and my world... I would accept and involve where my children come from when they are different as me.

deaf children are too in predominantly hearing world, and have to be taken on purpose to be in the deaf enviroment, so that's different.
Hearing child is already in a hearing enviroment, that is why i can't see how it is possible to keep them away from it... like I've said- they hear sounds even in their own home, deaf parents or not...

Fuzzy

 

[Cloggy]

..........We understand eachother. Heairing people can try and understand but they will never truly understand us deeply. Only us understand.

Not likely.... She can hear (and I don't mean residual hearing..)..... can you....
Do you really understand the world of having a choice between hearing good, and deaf??

You are assuming that your deafness is identical to Lotte's deafness.... and I think you are very wrong..

 

[Cloggy]

..................
Why would u say something like that? You are reminding me of those parents who want their implanted children not to interact with deaf signers. Already u are predicting that Lotte will not be friends with signers and that is sad cuz deaf signers are real people with real feelings. :roll:

Wrong conclusion....

 

[Cloggy]

Bear (half unintended - i am not sure) and Cloggy have done a superb job to portray audist parents as Very caring, While Bear (and Cloggy did as well) maintained that it is 'exceptional for parents to be 'caring' to go at lengths to help the child. What its clear though that the commitment is enshrined in phonocentric beliefs and value which collude with those of most hearing parents. Understandably though that there is a problem facnig a deaf child, a dilemma to be Deaf AND be 'like' my hearing parents whom I love? that is a cruel paradox.
I can see why parents (when I put myself in THEIR (parents) shoes) that they wish their child to be INCLUDED in the family to avoid this alienation situation. However I still find this highly questionable, as there is no doubt it is the the self-justifying 'parents' rather than an expression of deaf childrens rights. Often a form of mesermising take place so shiftly that a parent could 'say' it wasn't my choice, it was my child's own choosing to this direction of life. All I can say you'd doing a great job as parent yes, but as a parent of a deaf child, is entirely another story.
Oh, that research you're talking about is nothing 'new' it's just a recent addition to the old oralist methodology.

"However I still find this highly questionable, as there is no doubt it is the the self-justifying 'parents' rather than an expression of deaf childrens rights. "
You could be talking about parents making the choice to raise their child with sign only... .selfjustification using Deaf culture's point of view..

Parents make the decision. No matter what. I still have to see hearing parents that try to put the resposibility to the child when they choose CI for their child.
However, when choosing not to allow the child the chance to hear, the responsibility is put on the child... "the child has to make the choice"...

 

[Cloggy]

What will your daughter have in common with hearing children who dont have CIs?

They can hear each other.

 

[Cloggy]

Bear (half unintended - i am not sure) and Cloggy have done a superb job to portray audist parents as Very caring, While Bear (and Cloggy did as well) maintained that it is 'exceptional for pare.......

Any chance on providing your definition on "audism" and showing how I "portray audist parents as Very caring"???