District files appeal against deaf student

[shel90]

Please tell her about your experiences as a teacher of deaf children. Then, she will understand your point.

She can go thru the other threads to see the numerous times I have shared my experiences..right now, I feel like a broken record repeating myself..LOL!

If she is interested, she can always ask me and I will be more than happy to answer but to make assumptions without asking is what will piss me off.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

No.......b/c your children ALREADY have equal access to the curriculm. If they don't, then how come they are doing so well academicly? If your kid did not have equal access to the curriculm, then they'd be failing or getting Ds or Cs.

Not true, teachers could be giving her good grades because they like her or maybe for some other reason. I am not saying that this is what happen to my daughter I am just saying it could. Let's just pretend her grades are her true grades. She works hard for her grades. She does not have equal access. She has a mother that makes up what she is lacking at school.

If your child was doing that badly, even as an oral person, we would be totally 100% supportive of her getting CART.

I could care less if you or any one else on this board is supportive. It would be nice but I do not need your support. I have a lot of support in my life.

It just seems that you want to use CART to get an "edge" for your daughter.

I do not want an edge I want equal access. If you cannot understand what that means that's on you. [/COLOR]

And I mean there's no evidence whatsoever that CART will even really improve your daughter's grades so you won't have to pre and post teach. You're just thinking it will b/c it's the newest thing.

I do not want to improve my daughter's grades, how much higher can she get. She already has A's and B's more A's then B's. I WANT EQUAL ACCESS. LISTEN ONCE AGAIN EQUAL ACCESS

Hey, I know so many people who would be so beyond glad if their kids were doing as well as your daughter currently is with just a notetaker.

My daughter does well in school because of her determination not because of a notetaker. Don't forget I have already told you she spends about 4 hours a day on school work. It can range from 2 to 6 hours a day. You cannot image how proud and happy I am with what my daughter has been able to do with her life. Just because I am happy does not mean that I do not want my daughter to have equal access.

Oh, and the fact that you have to pre and post teach PROVES that oralism has its faults. If your kids were indeed oral sucesses, you wouldn't need to pre and post teach them. They would just very easily pick it up. That is why most dhh kids can and should be exposed to Sign.

As I mention before my daughter has several friends that just sign and are mainstreamed. These kids one of the things that they have in common with my daughter is that parents either are doing the same thing I do which pre-post teach or pay for tutors. So what is your argument there. Involved parents do whatever they need to do to see their childs succeeds.

Most dhh kids are strong VISUAL learners. Oralism does NOTHING to capitalize on that. Maybe if your daughter had grown up bilingal, (in both speech AND sign) you wouldn't be having to pre and post teach, b/c she would use 'terps, and so she could just concentrate on picking up content rather then having to work really hard at listening and talking. (and trust me, even for a kid who is a STRONG aural learner, I gotta say that hearing and talking takes a LOT out of you!)

I am so happy that my children have positive role models in their lives unlike the type of people I have come across here.
Understand the only reason we are fighting with the school district is for equal access. It doesn't matter what her grades are, she does not have equal access. It wouldn't matter if she was able to use an interpeter she wouldn't have had equal access.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Oh really..more deaf children would have been educated in a public classroom? Do u hold deaf schools solely responsible for deaf children's struggles with literacy?

If that's the case, then why are so many deaf children are being referred to the deaf schools due to falling behind in literacy skills AT the public schools? Then, it is the deaf schools who have to do so much remedial work to get those children caught up and then get the blame from the public for children graduating with lower literacy rates?

Why dont we just shut down all deaf schools while we are at it?

Shel I am not sure how you do things out on the east coast but in southern California. Schools only refer the "bad" kids to the deaf schools. When a kid cannot make it in SDC then they are refer to the deaf schools or when there is not program in the school district and the child cannot make it in a mainstream class then they are sent to the deaf schools. I do not hold deaf school responsible that is just the way it is out here.

 

[jillio]

Shel I am not sure how you do things out on the east coast but in southern California. Schools only refer the "bad" kids to the deaf schools. When a kid cannot make it in SDC then they are refer to the deaf schools or when there is not program in the school district and the child cannot make it in a mainstream class then they are sent to the deaf schools. I do not hold deaf school responsible that is just the way it is out here.

And then you want to claimthat kids do not get as good an education at the deaf schools, when people who insist on mainstreaming in an oral situation have created the problem originally. We are right back where we started. And to say that only "bad" kids get referred to the deaf schools is a horrible stereotype that you should be ashamed to even put in writing.

 

[jillio]

I am so happy that my children have positive role models in their lives unlike the type of people I have come across here.
Understand the only reason we are fighting with the school district is for equal access. It doesn't matter what her grades are, she does not have equal access. It wouldn't matter if she was able to use an interpeter she wouldn't have had equal access.

If her teachers are holding her to different standards, it has to be written into the IEP that they hold her to different standards. And if they are giving her good grades just because they like her, then you've got bigger problems than needing CART. When I brought these same issues up, you said I was calling you a bad parent. What....you agree with me now?

 

[MELISSA8]

I am a teacher and was a interpreter for at the college level and at the elementary levels. All I am saying is who the hell are we to judge someone for the way they want to educate their children. If Jackie has chosen Oralism then more power to her. All students should have the right to an education and a right to all technology out there. The CART not only helps the deaf student but also the other hearing children in that classroom. I have interpreted a class where I was the Interpreter and the CART was used along with me. I really think that some ppl should stop being closed minded and we all should start fighting for all dhh to have all accomdations to be successful productive students

 

[jillio]

I am a teacher and was a interpreter for at the college level and at the elementary levels. All I am saying is who the hell are we to judge someone for the way they want to educate their children. If Jackie has chosen Oralism then more power to her. All students should have the right to an education and a right to all technology out there. The CART not only helps the deaf student but also the other hearing children in that classroom. I have interpreted a class where I was the Interpreter and the CART was used along with me. I really think that some ppl should stop being closed minded and we all should start fighting for all dhh to have all accomdations to be successful productive students

No one here is saying that this kid shouldn't have CART. If you will go back and read the posts from beginning to end, CART was supported, until jackie came in and started pushing her oralist views down everyone's throat. I provide services at the college level and we use CART and an interpreter at the same time, and I think it was even mentioned to jackie that this would be an option because the terp provides content to make the transcript more understandable. We are all for providing all of the services that a deaf kid needs for success, with an emphasis on ALL.

 

[shel90]

I am a teacher and was a interpreter for at the college level and at the elementary levels. All I am saying is who the hell are we to judge someone for the way they want to educate their children. If Jackie has chosen Oralism then more power to her. All students should have the right to an education and a right to all technology out there. The CART not only helps the deaf student but also the other hearing children in that classroom. I have interpreted a class where I was the Interpreter and the CART was used along with me. I really think that some ppl should stop being closed minded and we all should start fighting for all dhh to have all accomdations to be successful productive students

I dont know if u read the whole thread but at the beginning, many of us supported Jackie's daughter's right to CART and still continue to do so. The arguments started when Jackie made a statement how she wont expose deaf children to sign language for fear of it interfering with their oral skills development and that if the child, at the age of 3 or older, shows problems with picking up on oral language then switch to signing. To those who have argued with her is like allowing some children to become language deprived during the most critical years of language development. That was how the whole thing started. Jillo,myself and many others dont believe in that kind of practice on deaf children's language development. We believe in using both languages to ensure that NO deaf child becomes deprived of full language development.

My suggestion is, if u havent done yet, take the time to read thru the whole thread.

Thanks

none of us are against CIs nor against in providing CART for deaf/hoh children. We are against in denying the young children a visual language while their auditory input is learning how to listen with their CIs and that takes time. Why waste time on delaying children with language development?

 

[jag]

:

Deafdyke, if you do not want to accept the differences that is on you, I don't care. A child with a profound hearing loss who wears HA if they have an upper profound hearing loss are may be able to hear some of the middle speech sounds, with a cochear implant they are able to hear all the speech sounds. Yes, these kids still function like a HH person but what the difference is; they function like a person with a mild hearing loss whereas with a HA they would be functioning like a person with a severe hearing loss. This is what the difference; what a person with a mild hearing loss can hear vs someone with a severe hearing loss. BIG DIFFERENCE

Having been there done that I agree, many hoh people function quite well in normal settings. Sure they miss some, which is why you're persuing CART, good luck. Just as a general question is the translation available only to your daughter or is it available to all? I would think it'd be a great classroom tool if all students actually had access. I do know that on elem school west of here installed a sound field for a child with hmm, add/adhd or maybe it was CAPD, anyway the teacher found that the sound field actually benefitted ALL the kids, the school then put them in all the elem. classrooms. So I could see where CART might benefit all students, espeically those with mild losses who sit up front to catch all instruction but miss all the chatter.

I will say that I did not have an IEP. (graduated about 4 yrs after IDEA was first passed) I would also say that my daughter who's worn HA's since 4th grade has never had an IEP nor had to have any accomodations beyound asking the teacher to repeat questions asked by students. Not all hoh kids are on IEP's.

 

[jag]

No.......b/c your children ALREADY have equal access to the curriculm. If they don't, then how come they are doing so well academicly? If your kid did not have equal access to the curriculm, then they'd be failing or getting Ds or Cs. If your child was doing that badly, even as an oral person, we would be totally 100% supportive of her getting CART. It just seems that you want to use CART to get an "edge" for your daughter. And I mean there's no evidence whatsoever that CART will even really improve your daughter's grades so you won't have to pre and post teach. You're just thinking it will b/c it's the newest thing.
Hey, I know so many people who would be so beyond glad if their kids were doing as well as your daughter currently is with just a notetaker.
Oh, and the fact that you have to pre and post teach PROVES that oralism has its faults. If your kids were indeed oral sucesses, you wouldn't need to pre and post teach them. They would just very easily pick it up. That is why most dhh kids can and should be exposed to Sign. Most dhh kids are strong VISUAL learners. Oralism does NOTHING to capitalize on that. Maybe if your daughter had grown up bilingal, (in both speech AND sign) you wouldn't be having to pre and post teach, b/c she would use 'terps, and so she could just concentrate on picking up content rather then having to work really hard at listening and talking. (and trust me, even for a kid who is a STRONG aural learner, I gotta say that hearing and talking takes a LOT out of you!)

My hoh daughter graduated from high school 3 weeks after graduating from the community college. Both graduatations were 'with honors'. She had NO repeat NO accomodations, no notetakers, no CART no visuals etc etc. She is lucky she did get great benefit from the HA's she'd worn starting in 4th grade. She does miss things and really, really had to concetrate. Oh and she also went on to graduate with honors from her photography program 2 yrs after the HS/CC graduation.

 

[shel90]

Shel I am not sure how you do things out on the east coast but in southern California. Schools only refer the "bad" kids to the deaf schools. When a kid cannot make it in SDC then they are refer to the deaf schools or when there is not program in the school district and the child cannot make it in a mainstream class then they are sent to the deaf schools. I do not hold deaf school responsible that is just the way it is out here.

What??????? Bad kids? Kids are "bad" if they get referred to the deaf schools? Hahahaha! Oh, u are lucky that I have been drinking my Smirdoff Ice and I am a little tipsy otherwise I would have gone thru the ceiling with that one and got myself banned from AD.

What u just said was really awful cuz u are basically saying my brother was a "bad" kid for not succeeding in the public schools. U know what? The public schools are BAD for letting these kids fall so far behind to the point where they have come to hate learning.

What is this? A joke?

To the others who support that philosophy...what a shame.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

No one here is saying that this kid shouldn't have CART. If you will go back and read the posts from beginning to end, CART was supported, until jackie came in and started pushing her oralist views down everyone's throat. I provide services at the college level and we use CART and an interpreter at the same time, and I think it was even mentioned to jackie that this would be an option because the terp provides content to make the transcript more understandable. We are all for providing all of the services that a deaf kid needs for success, with an emphasis on ALL.

Jillo while you have never actually said that my daughter should not get CART, deafdyke has several times. First she said my daughter should learn more sign language so she could make use an interpeter. Then she said that my daughter had enough help with the notetaker since she gets good enough grades. I wonder if deafdyke works at a school district because that is their reason why doesn't need CART.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

What??????? Bad kids? Kids are "bad" if they get referred to the deaf schools? Hahahaha! Oh, u are lucky that I have been drinking my Smirdoff Ice and I am a little tipsy otherwise I would have gone thru the ceiling with that one and got myself banned from AD.

What u just said was really awful cuz u are basically saying my brother was a "bad" kid for not succeeding in the public schools. U know what? The public schools are BAD for letting these kids fall so far behind to the point where they have come to hate learning.

What is this? A joke?

To the others who support that philosophy...what a shame.

You are right it is a shame. I am sorry you felt you have to drink in order to read my comments. I have felt like pulling out my hair reading your and others comments. I don't support this belief it is the way it is out here. I don't know about other places but this is the way it is here. I honestly didn't mean to offend you, I was telling you how it is here. I have heard some real horror stories about things that happen in the dorms of the deaf schools here in California. This is one of the main reason I would never send my children to the deaf school. I am sure there are a lot of smart deaf signers at these schools.
Just because I stated this information doesn't mean I support this philosophy.

What I said about the "bad" kids is not what I feel because I personally have never referred any students to the deaf schools. What I said is what I have overheard said in the school districts I have work for.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I dont know if u read the whole thread but at the beginning, many of us supported Jackie's daughter's right to CART and still continue to do so. The arguments started when Jackie made a statement how she wont expose deaf children to sign language for fear of it interfering with their oral skills development and that if the child, at the age of 3 or older, shows problems with picking up on oral language then switch to signing. To those who have argued with her is like allowing some children to become language deprived during the most critical years of language development. That was how the whole thing started. Jillo,myself and many others dont believe in that kind of practice on deaf children's language development. We believe in using both languages to ensure that NO deaf child becomes deprived of full language development.

My suggestion is, if u havent done yet, take the time to read thru the whole thread.



You are against what you do not believe in. That is the difference between you and I. I am not against raising your deaf children with ASL only. What I am against is other people telling me how to raise MY children. It is my choice.

none of us are against CIs nor against in providing CART for deaf/hoh children. We are against in denying the young children a visual language while their auditory input is learning how to listen with their CIs and that takes time. Why waste time on delaying children with language development?

You are against anything that does not agree with what you believe in.

 

[jillio]

You are right it is a shame. I am sorry you felt you have to drink in order to read my comments. I have felt like pulling out my hair reading your and others comments. I don't support this belief it is the way it is out here. I don't know about other places but this is the way it is here. I honestly didn't mean to offend you, I was telling you how it is here. I have heard some real horror stories about things that happen in the dorms of the deaf schools here in California. This is one of the main reason I would never send my children to the deaf school. I am sure there are a lot of smart deaf signers at these schools.
Just because I stated this information doesn't mean I support this philosophy.

What I said about the "bad" kids is not what I feel because I personally have never referred any students to the deaf schools. What I said is what I have overheard said in the school districts I have work for.

And that is the problem. You know nothing about the deaf schools, you have not had any experience with the deaf schools, and yet you are ready to condemn them and the students that attend them based on gossip you hear from others. Perhaps you would do well to visit a few of the deaf schools, and actually observe in the classrooms before you jump to conclusions.

 

[jillio]

Jillo while you have never actually said that my daughter should not get CART, deafdyke has several times. First she said my daughter should learn more sign language so she could make use an interpeter. Then she said that my daughter had enough help with the notetaker since she gets good enough grades. I wonder if deafdyke works at a school district because that is their reason why doesn't need CART.

You are right...I haven't said that. So stop accusing me of believing that deaf children should be denied services. All I did was pointr out the holes in the system that prevent these services from being instituted. And I believe that was what dd was doing as well. Pointing out that those who subscibe to the oral educational philosophy say they do so to improve opportunity and integration, and reduce need for special accommodations,a nd then turn around and say, "But we need more to get equal access." When a child is making honor roll grades, that just doesn't hold water for the schools system. Especially when there are hearing kids that are not able to make honor role grades that are not requesting any accommodations.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

If her teachers are holding her to different standards, it has to be written into the IEP that they hold her to different standards. And if they are giving her good grades just because they like her, then you've got bigger problems than needing CART. When I brought these same issues up, you said I was calling you a bad parent. What....you agree with me now?

NO I do not nor would I ever agree with you. I do know that my daughter's grades are hers. But I do also know that at her old high school where there are deaf kids, those mainstream teachers do grade the mainstream d/hh students on a different level then the hearing kids. I was just trying to show deafdyke that grades are not everything. Grades alone do not show us a complete picture of what children are learning and retaining. Just for your information my daughter's old high school did not write in my daughter's or her friends' IEP about how the teachers grade them differently.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

And that is the problem. You know nothing about the deaf schools, you have not had any experience with the deaf schools, and yet you are ready to condemn them and the students that attend them based on gossip you hear from others. Perhaps you would do well to visit a few of the deaf schools, and actually observe in the classrooms before you jump to conclusions.

It is not gossip. The information I have was given to me by my special education director. I have observed the local deaf school. I am not condemning them. I just stating what has been told to me by my supervisiors.

 

[jillio]

You are against anything that does not agree with what you believe in.

No jackie, what we are saying is that you have the right to raise your child any way you want to. But,a nd this is the big but, when you make that decision, then you have to accept the cdonsequences that come along with it. You don't seem to be willing to do that. You only want to take credit for the positive,a nd accept none of the negative consequences of your decision.
You can't turn around and blame all those negative consequences on everyone else. Becasue, as you said, it was your decison to raise your child as an oral deaf child.

 

[jillio]

NO I do not nor would I ever agree with you. I do know that my daughter's grades are hers. But I do also know that at her old high school where there are deaf kids, those mainstream teachers do grade the mainstream d/hh students on a different level then the hearing kids. I was just trying to show deafdyke that grades are not everything. Grades alone do not show us a complete picture of what children are learning and retaining. Just for your information my daughter's old high school did not write in my daughter's or her friends' IEP about how the teachers grade them differently.

If grades are not everything,why do you keep bringing your daughter's grade point average into the discussion and telling us how great she is doing? You continually contradict yourself. And of course you would never agree with me on any point, because the important thing to you is to defend at all costs, the strictly oral point of view. You are not even moderate enough to concede to valid points. You refuse to enter into a reasonable discussion, and when your inconsistencies are pointed out, rather than taking an honest look at what is said, you make insulting remarks. I thought you were an educator! And if it isn't written intothe IEP, then the deaf students cannot be held to different grading standards. To do so would violate the IEP, and is a strong basis for a lawsuit....much stronger than the one you claim to stand on.