Detuned notes on a digital midi controller (?)

[thesynthfreq]

Hi.
My name is TSF (Danielle) and I wear 2 purple Phonak Naida V UPs. I find that when I wear the Icom that goes with my hearing aids, and I play my synthesizers and my digital midi controller (Roland A-90), that everything sounds very rich, clean, and as if its CD quality sound. The strange thing is that even with my hearing aids on and turned up, the notes in the lower and higher octaves that are starting to exceed my auditory range, sound very faint and out of tune, and I hear the noise of the key on the sample more than the note itself. I know its not the synthesizer since its digital and has no way of going out of tune. I actually have a hard time telling which notes are correct and I have to tell based on the key's shape and the chord progression that I am using. I was curious if anyone else notices this detuning issue. I was thinking that maybe its probably sounding that way since my hearing loss is worse at the lower end and the higher end of the frequency spectrum. Because of this issue, I have to record bass parts in a much higher frequency, then tune it back down once I want to record it to the sequencer. Same goes for the higher frequencies. I thought my hearing aids shifted frequencies to where I can hear them, but I guess there is a limit to which ones it can process. I record a lot of bass lines for my music and sometimes I will play in the completely wrong key and have no idea until I visually check it. Very frustrating.
Anyone else have this annoying issue?

 

[naisho]

Hmm..
Is it that you feel can't hear it or is it that you are unsure of the sound being produced?
You could always route your keyboard to the line in on a computer and route that to some headphones or good speakers of your choice that can crank up the dB beyond what the keyboard itself is capable of.

I do it when I am recording in mp3 format and want to make sure that it sounds right before delivering the stuff out on the internet. For all other occasions, it's just the simple keyboard and speakers on it.

 

[thesynthfreq]

Hi Naisho.
I think that maybe I am hearing the result of my hearing aids transposing frequencies that I can not hear, into ones that I can. When I play notes that are out of my hearing range, the notes start to sound as if they are 1/2 of a cent apart instead of what they actually are. Its like there is an A, then the next key is an A 1/2, and then the B sounds like an A 1/4 instead of what it really is. The notes in order sound like notes that cant possibly exist on a piano due to Just intonation. I feel like I am playing a synthesizer with Just Intonation and then some other irrelevant tuning system mixed together and then some other notes added in. The synthesizer is in Just intonation permanently. I know its my hearing but there is no way to get anything any louder. My hearing aids are set for my severe to profound hearing loss. At the frequencies of 2000,4000,6000 and 8000 the hearing test machine was at 90 to 110+ db and I still do not hear those frequencies. The feeling of them gave them away. I am lucky that I can still enjoy playing the mid range notes but I have a fairly limited amount of notes I can use to write music with. I am so worried that over time, I may end up with a smaller and more limited range of notes I can hear. I use my Icom with my hearing aids, I also have headphones that are only 100db sensitive, and they are not loud enough at all, so I do not use them in the studio anymore. I also have earbuds but since they do not get loud enough and they are not meant to, I messed them up trying to send high volume through them. I have a speaker that is about 3 ft tall and its loud but you can hear the music outside when I work on music. lol I also have a hearing friend who cant tolerate the volume levels in the studio at the level we like to use. I need to get a db meter and see what the average volume our equipment is set to. I do not use "keyboards" with speakers except when I was a kid. I use the professional synthesizers from the 80s that require an external amplifier to be heard. I also like to use old DIA cables that were worn for FMs back in the day of body worn hearing aids. Those work well, but they are shorted out now due to use. I am curious if any volume level would help me or if I am just out of luck as far as hearing a synthesizer's full range of notes at all. I have never had normal hearing, so I do not know what every note is supposed to sound like.
I am starting to think that my cochlea may just be damaged in the areas responsible for high frequencies as well as low frequencies. Those two areas are worst on my audio gram. My audio gram looks like a "mountain" instead of a slope pattern. I was given auto toxic medications when I was born. Maybe that has something to do with it.
I am just frustrated that no matter how loud I have the amp, everyone else but me hears those frequencies. It even bothers the dog. lol I could sleep soundly even if 6k or 8k was blasting at 120db, I would never know it. lol

 

[MsMotif6]

Hi Sis!
Crystal (MsMotif6) here. It is frustrating to discern notes on the keyboard when all it sounds like is noise. I know for sure when we work in the studio, that we often become frustrated just finding the key we are in. I am glad we can keyshift the keyboards otherwise it would be real hard to adapt to our hearing loss.
I think its cool that we have access to new digital hearing aids and the iCom. I think that due to our hearing loss, its always going to be hard to tell the notes we have never been able to really hear in detail. Even though our hearing aids transpose the notes from low/high range into the range we can hear in, its always going to be hard since the hearing aids cannot correct our hearing loss.
Frustrating? Yes- but we work it out pretty well I think.

I think we have a unique style of music because of our hearing loss. I think its something will always do until we can't play anymore. Its just such a big part of our lives..

See ya in the studio Sis!
-Crystal

 

[Anij]

thesynthfreq

Just an FYI - digital gear can go off pitch ... and sometimes must be re-calibrated (depending on the gear - often octaves are calibrated as a unit, each octave being it's own unit).

I might be a good idea to plug in (or use the mic mode in a quite room) a good electronic tuner and make sure everything is still calibrated correct across all octaves etc. (Using a tuner while playing through notes you aren't able to discern audibly will also give you visual feedback allowing you to be confident you're programing/paying the right notes - something I learned playing violin many many years ago)

What monitors do you have ?? are you using near fields or mids??

When I was doing mixing and mastering I used a Mackie board, NS10Ms, and Protools. (the NS10 because they really make you work hard to get things to sound good ... if they sound good on NS10ms they'll sound good on anything lol)

 

[thesynthfreq]

thesynthfreq

Just an FYI - digital gear can go off pitch ... and sometimes must be re-calibrated (depending on the gear - often octaves are calibrated as a unit, each octave being it's own unit).

I might be a good idea to plug in (or use the mic mode in a quite room) a good electronic tuner and make sure everything is still calibrated correct across all octaves etc. (Using a tuner while playing through notes you aren't able to discern audibly will also give you visual feedback allowing you to be confident you're programing/paying the right notes - something I learned playing violin many many years ago)

What monitors do you have ?? are you using near fields or mids??

When I was doing mixing and mastering I used a Mackie board, NS10Ms, and Protools. (the NS10 because they really make you work hard to get things to sound good ... if they sound good on NS10ms they'll sound good on anything lol)

Hi. That is a neat idea about the tuner. Can a tuner calibrate the frequencies of all 88 notes? or does the volume of each note effect the tuner? Higher frequencies have very little power behind them.
As far as monitors, I currently use a regular amp speaker that is about 14 years old and a powered amplifier. I also connect my Icom for my hearing aids into the amplifier using RCAs and that works well. I also have the speaker situated behind me and to the right, since my better ear is my right ear. Also with the speaker behind me, the sound field difference between my hearing aids and the speaker is reduced as the sound doesnt have to travel far. I use the speaker as a big near field for now. lol

The gear that I am referring to is a Roland A-90 digital synthesizer/digital piano. Electronic synths and digital pianos most likely would go out of tune as a result of some kind of main board problem, which my synths are not experiencing right now. I have checked just to make sure. They are all in decent health. There is some calibrating that can be done, but that is mostly with the TVF/VCFs in the synths on the circuit board itself.

A little about my synths.
In all of my synths, since they are digital in their processing, they can't drift out of tune thank goodness. The DCOs are not VCOs and therefore do not have the dreaded drifting issues that the older analogue synths had. I have 1 synth that has the DCO/VCF/VCA hybrid configuration/synth architecture. Its very very warm and even though it is partially analogue, it too doesnt drift out of tune. The crystal oscillators, counters and the microprocessor prevent this. This is why most synths of the 80s were designed this way. The newer oscillator design keeps synths in tune, although it takes away from the warmness of an truly analogue synthesizer of the 60s,70s and early 80s. DCOs were the oscs of choice since the were digital, cheaper to produce and very stable. All VCO/VCF/VCA synths have to warm up for about 15 minutes, then they still can drift slightly and required tuning of the oscillators. In reality, DCO synths still can produce an analogue type signal with DACs or ADCs. DCOs and VCOs still produce the same waveform, but the filtering and wave shaping that results can make the difference in the sound obviously. lol

Got to have those waveforms.

 

[Anij]

thesynthfreq

Yes - you can get a fully automatic chromatic tuner that can pick up a range that is extended past the 88 keys of a piano You'll want to look for one that can be plugged in or used "acoustically" (ie just held/placed near the speaker/output of the unit/person/instrument you are meaning to pick up (in a noisy room plugging in is best if your equipment has a suitable "out"). Any good full service reputable music store will be able to help you out


Yup - I'm very familiar with the Roland products including the A-90. I was actually a repair tech in a very large and busy music store for 11-12years and one of our repair departments of course dealt with electronics including amps, speakers, electronic pianos, synths etc Although I worked in a different repair dept (acoustic woodwind, brass and some orchestral string repair) I did pick up quite a bit of causal knowledge from the Electronics tech.

 

[thesynthfreq]

thesynthfreq

Yes - you can get a fully automatic chromatic tuner that can pick up a range that is extended past the 88 keys of a piano You'll want to look for one that can be plugged in or used "acoustically" (ie just held/placed near the speaker/output of the unit/person/instrument you are meaning to pick up (in a noisy room plugging in is best if your equipment has a suitable "out"). Any good full service reputable music store will be able to help you out


Yup - I'm very familiar with the Roland products including the A-90. I was actually a repair tech in a very large and busy music store for 11-12years and one of our repair departments of course dealt with electronics including amps, speakers, electronic pianos, synths etc Although I worked in a different repair dept (acoustic woodwind, brass and some orchestral string repair) I did pick up quite a bit of causal knowledge from the Electronics tech.

Awesome. thanks for the info.
Roland synths are awesome, as is the A-90.

If the tuner is to be plugged in, should it be plugged into the synthesizer's left mono jack? or the right stereo? I would try both, but I was going to choose Left Mono first, since the amp lines are always used in Left Mono. Does this make any difference? Also there is some circuitry noise, and some noise that the synths make as they are running, my Icom picks up all those noises. lol Would those "artifacts" effect the tuning?
I checked the Roland A-90 as well as my D-50 today and all the fine tunings and oscillator tunings were all set at 0s. So, I am kind of curious though, since the Roland A-90's sounds are samples, how would samples go out of tune? I am guessing that Roland used the usual 44.1 sampling rate or a specific number of samples?
I remember when I was younger, I heard the some of the first order harmonics (harmonic series) in each note, about the first 3. I will have to see if I can still hear those with the Icom.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

 

[Anij]

I'd just go talk with (or email) the sales staff at your local (larger) music store (somewhere respected) ... tell them exactly what equipment you're hoping to be able to use with the tuner - and see what tuners they have ... then see if you can actaully TRY them together before you buy

They Electronics dept staff should be able to explain the "hows" & whys" about if, and where to plug the tuner in etc

Hope that helps