Cochlear decison

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DeafCaroline said:
if you were deaf like us, you wouldn't find it surprising at all. how can we talk about something if we don't refer to the term that started the discussion? that's called whitewashing and denial. It's best to confront it head on instead of pretending it doesn't exist by not using terms that hearing people do use.

It's not up to you to decide what's offensive for deaf people to quote terms used to describe deaf people.
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Great post. And it's the same as last year when we (yes, we, the deaf) were given flak for what terms we applied to speech.
 
DeafCaroline said:
if you were deaf like us, you wouldn't find it surprising at all. how can we talk about something if we don't refer to the term that started the discussion? that's called whitewashing and denial. It's best to confront it head on instead of pretending it doesn't exist by not using terms that hearing people do use.

It's not up to you to decide what's offensive for deaf people to quote terms used to describe deaf people.
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I'm not telling you what you should consider offensive. I'm expressing surprise that another hearing parent is using a term I consider offensive. And before I objected to it -- given that there's not a common definition and people use it differently -- I asked him what he meant by it. His explanation is that he's using it as a term for "deaf children who never learn effective verbal communication" in the same way he says audiologists use it (?).

I stated my concerns about the term. :dunno: If you like applying it to people, or don't mind it applied to you, that's up to you. I don't like the term as he has defined it, and it first came up in his response to my daughter's experience, so not sure why you have a problem with me expressing my dislike for the term.
 
GrendelQ said:
I'm not telling you what you should consider offensive. I'm expressing surprise that another hearing parent is using a term I consider offensive. And before I objected to it -- given that there's not a common definition and people use it differently -- I asked him what he meant by it. His explanation is that he's using it as a term for "deaf children who never learn effective verbal communication" in the same way he says audiologists use it (?).

I stated my concerns about the term. :dunno: If you like applying it to people, or don't mind it applied to you, that's up to you. I don't like the term as he has defined it, and it came up in his response to my daughter's experience, so not sure why you have a problem with me expressing my dislike for the term.
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And round and round we go again.

Never mind Grendel, if you didn't get his point or mine, you never will. Not going to beat this to death. Moving on.
 
DeafCaroline said:
And round and round we go again.

Never mind Grendel, if you didn't get his point or mine, you never will. Not going to beat this to death. Moving on.
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What's your point? That you object to me objecting to a hearing person referring to some deaf people as "oral failures"?
 
No, we're objecting that you think you get to decide for others what terminology is appropriate or wanted to be used by specific persons.
 
DeafCaroline said:
if you were deaf like us, you wouldn't find it surprising at all. how can we talk about something if we don't refer to the term that started the discussion? that's called whitewashing and denial. It's best to confront it head on instead of pretending it doesn't exist by not using terms that hearing people do use.

It's not up to you to decide what's offensive for deaf people to quote terms used to describe deaf people.
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It bothers me a lot. I have had it used about me. Grendel will get to feel this pain too if it happens to her daughter.

I think she was not out of line at all.

In case I am not clear, "oral failure" terminology is what bothers me.
 
AlleyCat said:
No, we're objecting that you think you get to decide for others what terminology is appropriate or wanted to be used by specific persons.
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That really makes no sense AlleyCat. If you like the term as defined, if you think it's appropriate to refer to "deaf children who never learn effective verbal communication" as "oral failures," that's completely up to you. But I also have a right to express my dislike of using such a term for children, especially defined in that way.
 
So to speak up for myself, I don't like the term oral failure slung around , anymore than I would like deaf and dumb.
 
GrendelQ said:
That really makes no sense AlleyCat. If you like the term as defined, if you think it's appropriate to refer to "deaf children who never learn effective verbal communication" as "oral failures," that's completely up to you. But I also have a right to express my dislike of using such a term for children, especially defined in that way.
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Ok, that's fine -- that's your opinion. I am actually not weighing in on that specific term -- I was weighing in that we even get told what terms are appropriate or not.
 
Bottesini said:
So to speak up for myself, I don't like the term oral failure slung around , anymore than I would like deaf and dumb.
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Totally agree. You have every right to feel that way. As do I.

I just don't want to be told by someone else whether that's appropriate or not.
 
GrendelQ said:
That really makes no sense AlleyCat. If you like the term as defined, if you think it's appropriate to refer to "deaf children who never learn effective verbal communication" as "oral failures," that's completely up to you. But I also have a right to express my dislike of using such a term for children, especially defined in that way.
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Are you saying you don't like that kind of framing? Do you want the framing to be all peachy and fuzzy for your interests?
 
Bottesini said:
So to speak up for myself, I don't like the term oral failure slung around , anymore than I would like deaf and dumb.
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THIS! Me too...HATE HATE HATE phrase "deaf and dumb". Not talking is not stupid! Not talking is NOT FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Bottesini said:
It bothers me a lot. I have had it used about me. Grendel will get to feel this pain too if it happens to her daughter.

I think she was not out of line at all.

In case I am not clear, "oral failure" terminology is what bothers me.
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Thanks :) At one point we very seriously considered taking an approach that didn't include spoken language, my daughter has many close friends who don't use spoken language, I think it should be a viable option. The thought that there are those who consider children who "never learn effective verbal communication" to be "oral failures" --- when failure is not a part of their experience -- isn't something I'm comfortable with.

And it seems that in this case where a hearing parent is using the term in a post directed to me, apparently without realizing how offensive it is, and then justifies that use by explaining that audiologists use the term, too, it makes sense to acknowledge these concerns.
 
Bottesini said:
So to speak up for myself, I don't like the term oral failure slung around , anymore than I would like deaf and dumb.
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Agreed. Yet how can we deem what's offensive if we don't acknowledge the existence of the offensive term? Mountain Man was being blunt and realistic how about the hearing world views deaf people in certain situations. And yes, deaf people who didn't learn to speak well are deemed oral failures, not because we deaf people think so but because some hearing people do. We have to be frank about these things and acknowledge that indeed such offensive terms and ways of thinking do exist, whether we like it or not. I wouldn't call a deaf person an oral failure but I would acknowledge it if an audiologist or a speech therapist or a doctor did to demonstrate it as a example of an audist view that we're constantly fighting against.
 
Mountain Man said:
If that's the case then he'll still be discriminated against because everybody around him will know that he's not a typical hearing person. Cochlear implants are highly visible, and many of those who have them don't achieve perfect speech.

I don't know the circumstances of the family, but if it's the case that he's going to be greatly disadvantaged where he's living, it may be in the family's best interest to move somewhere more welcoming. An area with a good Deaf school and thriving Deaf community would be ideal.
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yes i have realized that they are very visible, but were not trying to hide the fact that he is deaf, it would be ideal to move to such a community but thats not really an option.
 
Bottesini said:
It bothers me a lot. I have had it used about me. Grendel will get to feel this pain too if it happens to her daughter.

I think she was not out of line at all.

In case I am not clear, "oral failure" terminology is what bothers me.
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Using the term "failure" in any context when applied to a child bothers me. But that doesn't stop the audis and the special ed directors and the oral school adminsitrators and faculty from using it. I hate to say it, but it is a commonly used term in these arenas. And, since it is so commonly used by these "experts", it leads me to seriously question their basic philosphy regarding not just the deaf child, but the D/deaf adult, as well.
 
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