CI technology question

Easy: Here in Ontario the government has set up- Cochlear Implant programme for large sections of Ontario into specified centres. Sunnybrook was chosen 18 years ago -Toronto centred. As OHIP (Ont Health Insurance plan)pays the entire cost ( in my case 2007-$55,000 CDN) upon approval of the designated centre. I understand that only 850 persons over the last 18 years have been implanted. Not exactly automatic as they reject over 60% of all person reviewed for Implants-for one reason or other. This information from a recent Cochlear Implant meeting at Sunnybrook/Toronto., One needs a referral from an ENT doctor to have Sunnybrook process you. In my case came from ENT St Michaels Hospital-Toronto in early 2007. I became deaf-bilaterally Dec 20, 2006.
Other countries have different procedures re: Cochlear Implants

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07.
 
A lot of this hoopla about cochlear is at its capacity for software upgrades for their processor is BS in my opinion. That is saying technology can no longer advance which we all know technology advances EVERYDAY. Scientists work everyday to make advances in medicine and technology etc to say that anything has reached capacity for room to grow and be better is crap. For ME when I get implanted eventually I will be going with cochlear.
 
A lot of this hoopla about cochlear is at its capacity for software upgrades for their processor is BS in my opinion. That is saying technology can no longer advance which we all know technology advances EVERYDAY. Scientists work everyday to make advances in medicine and technology etc to say that anything has reached capacity for room to grow and be better is crap. For ME when I get implanted eventually I will be going with cochlear.

It really is not BS , my research has shown me that the actual electronics in the current implant from cochlear is very near its limits. It simply can not fire any faster , nor can the actual physical connections to the electrodes be configured to fire more then one at a time. The firmware ( the software that runs the little computer in the implant ) is also NOT upgradable in anyway.

Any advancement that cochlear makes must be done within these limits.

The AB implant is actually running about 1/4 of its theoretical hardware limits.The processor also uploads a firing table to the implant each time it is connected. This allows the software of the internal implant to be adjusted after implantation.

These are the facts of the hardware.

This does NOT mean that the AB is a "better" implant for any particular person. That is a decision to be made between the implant recipient and there dr.

There are many considerations when deciding which CI to use. The technical specifications of the hardware is just one of many factors.

The support system is a very important factor. I am lucky to live near NYC where I have access to several implant centers which have experience with each of the vendors systems. No matter what unit I end up with , I will have someone within a reasonable drive to handle programmings and mappings

Personally , I am leaning to the AB unit. Even with the current recall.Which I actualy feel shows that AB will do the right thing when it needs to be done. They pulled it before the regulatory agency required them to.

People seem to forget that the only CI company to have any negative regulatory action was CA. They were fined due to violations of the anti kick-back regulations. They were paying ( in various forms ) dr's to implant CA over others.They have enjoyed the largest market share forever , why does the company management feel they need to pay off doctors ? Perhaps because they know that on a level field , other implants are better. To me , that is worse then some technical issue. Things break all the time. No one can be 100%. It is how you handle the failure that is important.

Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part , but I hope I would be able to make use of the higher firing rates , and the ability to fire more then one electrode at a time. Who knows , I may not be able to.

But it simply a technical fact that the AB has more 'capacity' then the CA or med-el units. While it can be argued that there is no real advantage to the higher firing rates. The fact is that if there is no advantage , the AB can be adjusted to fire at the lower rates of the CA .. The CA can not be adjusted to fire any faster then it does.

In many locations a center that implants AB may be HOURS away , while a center that implants CA is around the block. This is an important factor to consider. In lots of cases it is vital. Especially with young children , who may not be able to tell you that the map needs adjusting.

Just saying that its not bs as you describe it .. but it is also not the only factor to consider.
 
You make very good point and those (and others) were why we chose AB for our daughter and why, still, we believe it to be the right choice for us.
 
Easy: Here in Ontario the government has set up- Cochlear Implant programme for large sections of Ontario into specified centres. Sunnybrook was chosen 18 years ago -Toronto centred. As OHIP (Ont Health Insurance plan)pays the entire cost ( in my case 2007-$55,000 CDN) upon approval of the designated centre. I understand that only 850 persons over the last 18 years have been implanted. Not exactly automatic as they reject over 60% of all person reviewed for Implants-for one reason or other. This information from a recent Cochlear Implant meeting at Sunnybrook/Toronto., One needs a referral from an ENT doctor to have Sunnybrook process you. In my case came from ENT St Michaels Hospital-Toronto in early 2007. I became deaf-bilaterally Dec 20, 2006.
Other countries have different procedures re: Cochlear Implants

Implanted Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07.

So is it fair to say that you really had no choice in the matter ?

If for whatever reason you did not like the surgeon that was assigned to you , could you have requested another one ?
 
The AB Harmony processor has been available for the Clarion 1.0 and 1.2 implants (covering those before May 2001) for over a month now here in the US (FDA approval delay); but it requires a software upgrade to SoundWave 2.0, which not every CI center has. I know an engineer who worked on the project, and it was a real bitch to get it to work right.

Since you are outside the US in jolly old England, SoundWave 2.0 has been rolled out elsewhere, to support ClearVoice technology as well as Harmony for Clarion 1.x.

Although the Nucleus 5 has been out for over a year, they don't yet have compatibility with the N22 or earlier implants, i.e. implanted before 2004. However, Cochlear does have a very good reputation for backwards support, so I'm sure they will have the N5 soon enough.

Which CI centre are you using?

This was discussed few weeks ago, this email will explain both. At the time when I was choosing between AB and Cochlear, AB wasn't backward compatibility but I believe they are working on this now. It's important to me so that I can have the upgrade to newer techology as often as possible.
 
Magnets & MRI

Yes, both AB's HiRes 90K and Cochlear's CI512 have removable magnets, if it is required for MRI.

In addition, the magnet is there really only for convenience, and is not necessary for it to work: People who require frequent high power MRI's (1.5 Tesla, as opposed to 0.4T; like if they have NF2) and have a CI or ABI can get them with a non-magnetic dummy, and use a hanger attached with wig tape or toupee glue: It'll work.

Also, low power MRI's can be done on the knee with all 4 brands: Sometimes, tey use a compression bandage to keep it from moving.~

Random question - for those who know for certain ...
Is Cochlear the only company with the removable magnet ? (ie one that is easily removed and reinserted)

While I'm not a candidate currently, nor interested - I do like to keep up on what OPTIONS I may or may not have in the future.

With my complicated medical history and various conditions - There is no way I could even contemplate getting something that prohibited MRIs, CTs and other types of imaging.
 
Close...

CJ:

You're close on this one; but I would word it slightly differently than "This allows the software of the internal implant to be adjusted after implantation."

It's not really "adjusted;" as a new data table is loaded each time you power up or change programs.

The reason why the (patented) circuit works this way is to have a very fast update rate of 88,000 forward updates per second, which allows for current steering (beam forming) for a much better stim. Basically, instead of sending sequential firing instructions (like Cochlear), it sends a short code in each update that has a charge quantity and combination of electrodes to fire, and the implant electronics know how to handle it, decoding it in the data table: That is how they get their tremendous speed, as well as the 120 (soon to be 128) channels (via current steering).

MedEl also does something similar; but not to the extent as AB: They can do basic current steering, which is still pretty good with about 90 channels.

The Nucleus N5 system with the CI512 implant: No current steering capability, so 22 channels.

------------------------

Since you are near NYC, you are lucky, as there are two superb programs with excellent surgeons and CI audies: NYU with Dr Roland, and Beth Israel with Dr Hoffman. I know people who have used each, and are very satisfied.~

The AB implant is actually running about 1/4 of its theoretical hardware limits.The processor also uploads a firing table to the implant each time it is connected. This allows the software of the internal implant to be adjusted after implantation.
 
CJ:
The reason why the (patented) circuit works this way is to have a very fast update rate of 88,000 forward updates per second, which allows for current steering (beam forming) for a much better stim. Basically, instead of sending sequential firing instructions (like Cochlear), it sends a short code in each update that has a charge quantity and combination of electrodes to fire, and the implant electronics know how to handle it, decoding it in the data table: That is how they get their tremendous speed, as well as the 120 (soon to be 128) channels (via current steering).

You seem to have a lot of information about future products and operation of this implant. Where do you get this information?

C1
 
It really is not BS , my research has shown me that the actual electronics in the current implant from cochlear is very near its limits. It simply can not fire any faster , nor can the actual physical connections to the electrodes be configured to fire more then one at a time. The firmware ( the software that runs the little computer in the implant ) is also NOT upgradable in anyway.

Any advancement that cochlear makes must be done within these limits.

The AB implant is actually running about 1/4 of its theoretical hardware limits.The processor also uploads a firing table to the implant each time it is connected. This allows the software of the internal implant to be adjusted after implantation.

These are the facts of the hardware.

This does NOT mean that the AB is a "better" implant for any particular person. That is a decision to be made between the implant recipient and there dr.

There are many considerations when deciding which CI to use. The technical specifications of the hardware is just one of many factors.

The support system is a very important factor. I am lucky to live near NYC where I have access to several implant centers which have experience with each of the vendors systems. No matter what unit I end up with , I will have someone within a reasonable drive to handle programmings and mappings

Personally , I am leaning to the AB unit. Even with the current recall.Which I actualy feel shows that AB will do the right thing when it needs to be done. They pulled it before the regulatory agency required them to.

People seem to forget that the only CI company to have any negative regulatory action was CA. They were fined due to violations of the anti kick-back regulations. They were paying ( in various forms ) dr's to implant CA over others.They have enjoyed the largest market share forever , why does the company management feel they need to pay off doctors ? Perhaps because they know that on a level field , other implants are better. To me , that is worse then some technical issue. Things break all the time. No one can be 100%. It is how you handle the failure that is important.

Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part , but I hope I would be able to make use of the higher firing rates , and the ability to fire more then one electrode at a time. Who knows , I may not be able to.

But it simply a technical fact that the AB has more 'capacity' then the CA or med-el units. While it can be argued that there is no real advantage to the higher firing rates. The fact is that if there is no advantage , the AB can be adjusted to fire at the lower rates of the CA .. The CA can not be adjusted to fire any faster then it does.

In many locations a center that implants AB may be HOURS away , while a center that implants CA is around the block. This is an important factor to consider. In lots of cases it is vital. Especially with young children , who may not be able to tell you that the map needs adjusting.

Just saying that its not bs as you describe it .. but it is also not the only factor to consider.

I don't think your assumption is true, you are just repeating what is been said on AB forum and have no idea what's the facts from fictions, Cochlear Americas has 22 electrodes, while AB has only 16, no matter what they claim that these 16 can be adjusted to more or whatever, all of this are CLAIMS and there is no truth about it.

These "FIRING" things may be the reason why many are getting electrical shocks from the implant and BTW no company voluntarily recall their products if the problem is not very serious, no company STOP their product for 6 month or a year without huge technical problem, imagine yourself getting electrocuted in your brain.
There is no a "proved" or technical reason for any implant to fire fast so it can give better results, these are just a marketing hypes for a company to differentiate themselves from another company, it's the AMERICAN way of advertising, nothing else.

CI technically is same, no brand is better, while there is one brand that is my be more reliable than other.

Please do your research, do not get brainwashed by some company's mentors ....advisors, good luck.
 
I don't think your assumption is true, you are just repeating what is been said on AB forum and have no idea what's the facts from fictions, Cochlear Americas has 22 electrodes, while AB has only 16, no matter what they claim that these 16 can be adjusted to more or whatever, all of this are CLAIMS and there is no truth about it.

These "FIRING" things may be the reason why many are getting electrical shocks from the implant and BTW no company voluntarily recall their products if the problem is not very serious, no company STOP their product for 6 month or a year without huge technical problem, imagine yourself getting electrocuted in your brain.
There is no a "proved" or technical reason for any implant to fire fast so it can give better results, these are just a marketing hypes for a company to differentiate themselves from another company, it's the AMERICAN way of advertising, nothing else.

CI technically is same, no brand is better, while there is one brand that is my be more reliable than other.

Please do your research, do not get brainwashed by some company's mentors ....advisors, good luck.

Actually, there is proof about how the device fires. That is not a claim.

Also, an implant is not in your brain, so it can't electrocute your brain. And the "many" who have been shocked are 2.

And finally, claiming that they are also the same is ridiculous. Are Toyota and Ford cars the same? No, but they will both get your where you need to go. Same with implants. They aren't the same, many specifics are different, but they will both get you hearing.
 
CJ:

You're close on this one; but I would word it slightly differently than "This allows the software of the internal implant to be adjusted after implantation."

It's not really "adjusted;" as a new data table is loaded each time you power up or change programs.

The reason why the (patented) circuit works this way is to have a very fast update rate of 88,000 forward updates per second, which allows for current steering (beam forming) for a much better stim. Basically, instead of sending sequential firing instructions (like Cochlear), it sends a short code in each update that has a charge quantity and combination of electrodes to fire, and the implant electronics know how to handle it, decoding it in the data table: That is how they get their tremendous speed, as well as the 120 (soon to be 128) channels (via current steering).

MedEl also does something similar; but not to the extent as AB: They can do basic current steering, which is still pretty good with about 90 channels.

The Nucleus N5 system with the CI512 implant: No current steering capability, so 22 channels.

------------------------

Since you are near NYC, you are lucky, as there are two superb programs with excellent surgeons and CI audies: NYU with Dr Roland, and Beth Israel with Dr Hoffman. I know people who have used each, and are very satisfied.~

OH NO, you chased us here, wasn't AB forum not enough for your advertising !!, you seem to favor the AB way more than usual, are you working for them?
 
OH NO, you chased us here, wasn't AB forum not enough for your advertising !!, you seem to favor the AB way more than usual, are you working for them?

And you seem hell bent on a smear campaign against them and all those who prefer their product. Do you work for Cochlear?


(I don't actually believe she does, I just figure this person happens to be an a$$)
 
Actually, there is proof about how the device fires. That is not a claim.

Also, an implant is not in your brain, so it can't electrocute your brain. And the "many" who have been shocked are 2.

And finally, claiming that they are also the same is ridiculous. Are Toyota and Ford cars the same? No, but they will both get your where you need to go. Same with implants. They aren't the same, many specifics are different, but they will both get you hearing.

PROOF!!, LOL, the proof done by a research company that is paid by that CI company.
 
OH NO, you chased us here, wasn't AB forum not enough for your advertising !!, you seem to favor the AB way more than usual, are you working for them?

F1885, you are being a bit paranoid in your thinking that these posters are following you here from elsewhere. These posters are known in this community and some are speaking about the type of CI they use and know well. There is quite a bit of difference in the mechanics of these brands. But there's generally not been the brand war here that you describe from other forums, thank goodness. Your own posts, however, have created quite the smear campaign against AB in themselves, and even as a happy customer of another brand I don't like seeing that -- this isn't the place for it.
 
There is no a "proved" or technical reason for any implant to fire fast so it can give better results, these are just a marketing hypes for a company to differentiate themselves from another company, it's the AMERICAN way of advertising, nothing else.

CI technically is same, no brand is better, while there is one brand that is my be more reliable than other.

The "firing" rate, as you put it, does have a technical reason to be as fast as possible. It is analogous to what is more commonly known as “sampling rate”. To explain in more of a real life term, think of different sound reproduction devices.

44kHz sampling rate = CD quality
22KHz sampling rate = Low Quality (64kbps) MP3 file
18kHz = chrome cassette tape
8kHz = telephone

One can easily hear the difference between a phone, cassette and CD. If “firing” rate doesn’t matter, would you want an implant that stimulates at 8kHz? What about one that stimulated at 1Hz?

C1
 
Wirelessly posted

CrazyOne said:
Fl885 said:
There is no a "proved" or technical reason for any implant to fire fast so it can give better results, these are just a marketing hypes for a company to differentiate themselves from another company, it's the AMERICAN way of advertising, nothing else.



CI technically is same, no brand is better, while there is one brand that is my be more reliable than other.



The "firing" rate, as you put it, does have a technical reason to be as fast as possible. It is analogous to what is more commonly known as “sampling rate”. To explain in more of a real life term, think of different sound reproduction devices.



44kHz sampling rate = CD quality

22KHz sampling rate = Low Quality (64kbps) MP3 file

18kHz = chrome cassette tape

8kHz = telephone



One can easily hear the difference between a phone, cassette and CD. If “firing” rate doesn’t matter, would you want an implant that stimulates at 8kHz? What about one that stimulated at 1Hz?



C1

It depends on the safety and how well our nerves can handle it( it can be too much). Afterall we are dealing with our body.
 
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Keep in mind that you probably wont feel any difference in your body between the sampling rates. What you would notice, if it were to high, is voltage (amplitude). The electrical signal has two components, frequency and amplitude. Frequency is how often and amplitude is how much.

To again put this in more "normal" terms, if you get shocked by a 110V DC (this means 0 HZ) source and a 110V 60hz AC source (the electricity in houses in the USA), you will notice the 110V. You really wont care so much that the signal is reversing itself 60 times a second for the 110V AC source. You will feel the 110V.

Something I left out is the current of each source. We will assume low current so you just get to feel the nice effects. The amount of current is why police can taser someone at very high voltage and they feel it but it doesn't kill them (high voltage = pain, high current = death... in a very generic manner).

C1
 
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