church signing issues

[ChurchBoy]

disclaimer: this is not about religion, just how we can best interpret in that environment. Thanks!


re: church signing. Here are some of the issues we (interpreters) face:

1) we have a mix of ASL, PSE, SEE, and lip readers attending. One interpreter only knows SEE because that's how he communicates with his wife. One terp is highly certified and skilled and she uses ASL unless only SEE signers show up. I use as much ASL as I can then fall back on PSE or finger spelling.

2) we have one member who uses tactile signing. One of the other signers follows us and hand signs to him. He perfers ASL but the hand signer might perfer SEE, so it is an issue.

3) we have a 'main' and 'response' interpreter. The signers should follow the 'response' interpreter but only about 20% follow along. The others are pretty good at responding, maybe 80% to 90% respond vocally.

4) signing songs is a minor issue. The signers, with only 1 exception, never follow along, much like only 10% of the verbal congregation sing along with the choir. The choir director is very aware of the 'performing' vs. 'leading' issues, as are we interpreters. Should we sign songs SEE? convert to ASL? We debate that song by song. Without ASL the meaning is often obscured by virtue of the 'church speak' used in the lyrics. If we sign ASL the meaning comes through but the 'poetry' of the song is lost. We are very aware that it may seem like we are performing, but to really get the meaning and feel of the song some of that is necessary. If the words/meaning are about a dramatic event we have to be dramatic too.

Comments:

1) the community is ALWAYS supportive, no matter how good or bad we do on any given day. When they see a paniced look on my face they often feed me a sign.

2) sometimes the preacher is just way too fast to keep up with, so we condense as best we can.

3) the text in readings often have very awkward language, even for the hearing. Things like double negatives and 'church speak' phrases 20 words long that we might condense to 'eternal God'. Also if there are a list of similar constructed sentences we might change it to an enumeration structure. Also there is often confusion as to which person a pronoun is referring back to, so we replace the pronoun with the correct person reference, otherwise (we are told) that the deaf parishoners don't know who we are signing about (e.g., Moses, God, burning bush, an angel,...).

4) it seems to me (asking for comments here folks!) that even the PSE and SEE folks understand ASL even if that's not their preferred method, so the more ASL we can get in, the better.

I'm often a bundle of nerves after 1 hour when all of the above happens that Sunday.

Comments welcome!

 

[saywhatkid]

I have nothing to add to your topic, except keep up the good work. Church interps are a special group.

 

[dogmom]

I offer my welcome here and will be curious to see other responses.
I don't know from church as I'm Jewish but one thing I do want to ask-

why do you put "one deaf-blind" or "the deaf"?
As opposed to adding "people" or "congregants" somewhere?
since you are discussing people, not things.....

 

[ChurchBoy]

I offer my welcome here and will be curious to see other responses.
I don't know from church as I'm Jewish but one thing I do want to ask-

why do you put "one deaf-blind" or "the deaf"?
As opposed to adding "people" or "congregants" somewhere?
since you are discussing people, not things.....

first, the things I mention are often specific to 'bible speak', both New and Old Testament. The issue is how to translate that kind of language, not specifically what the subject of the text is. So it should apply to temple, church, mosque, hall, or whatever. If I were to try and be inclusive in my post it would be 10 times longer.

I say 'deaf and deaf blind' because that's who we focus on. There are some hearing signers out there too, but we are not there for them specifically. I am not signing for the congregants or the people at large.

No offense intended and I see this kind of comment in other threads too. My intent is to share my perspective, get comments, and see what I can learn from that. This is one of the 'bemused' things I referred to in my intro.

 

[Bottesini]

first, the things I mention are often specific to 'bible speak', both New and Old Testament. The issue is how to translate that kind of language, not specifically what the subject of the text is. So it should apply to temple, church, mosque, hall, or whatever. If I were to try and be inclusive in my post it would be 10 times longer.

I say 'deaf and deaf blind' because that's who we focus on. There are some hearing signers out there too, but we are not there for them specifically. I am not signing for the congregants or the people at large.

No offense intended and I see this kind of comment in other threads too. My intent is to share my perspective, get comments, and see what I can learn from that. This is one of the 'bemused' things I referred to in my intro.

One deaf/blind... Seems like an object. That must be a person, is what dogmom is saying, it does seem like you don't see a person.

 

[Bottesini]

One other thing, we have more than one Deaf church where I live. Do you not have any there?

 

[Reba]

...I say 'deaf and deaf blind' because that's who we focus on. There are some hearing signers out there too, but we are not there for them specifically. I am not signing for the congregants or the people at large....

I think what dogmom meant was not referring to people by their disability/condition but rather their personal status such as member, visitor, participant, etc. That is, your church has one member who uses tactile signing, not one deaf-blind. Or, you are signing for people whose main mode of communication is ASL or PSE.

 

[ChurchBoy]

I think what dogmom meant was not referring to people by their disability/condition but rather their personal status such as member, visitor, participant, etc. That is, your church has one member who uses tactile signing, not one deaf-blind. Or, you are signing for people whose main mode of communication is ASL or PSE.

ah, that is clearer to me now. sorry. I'll go back and see if I can't edit the original post.

better?

 

[whatdidyousay!]

One deaf/blind... Seems like an object. That must be a person, is what dogmom is saying, it does seem like you don't see a person.

Yeah it sound like someone going into a store and saying "I want to buy one deaf/blind whatever. "

 

[ChurchBoy]

One deaf/blind... Seems like an object. That must be a person, is what dogmom is saying, it does seem like you don't see a person.

well, of course I see a person ... and his individual needs. What I don't know is the correct way to express this.

 

[Reba]

...
1) we have a mix of ASL, PSE, SEE, and lip readers attending. One interpreter only knows SEE because that's how he communicates with his wife. One terp is highly certified and skilled and she uses ASL unless only SEE signers show up. I use as much ASL as I can then fall back on PSE or finger spelling.

You have one SEE transliterator, one RID/NAD certified terp, and you, correct? Other than the certified terp, what training do you and the SEE user have? ITP?

2) we have one deaf-blind. One of the deaf follows us and hand signs to him.

Do you mean someone interprets using tactile sign? Is that person trained in tactile signing?

3) we have a 'main' and 'response' interpreter. The deaf should follow the 'response' interpreter like the hearing congregation responds vocally to the celebrant. Only about 20% of the deaf follow along. The hearing are pretty good at responding, maybe 80% to 90% respond…

If it's been clearly explained that the ritual practice is to respond, and the responses are clearly signed, yet they choose not to, that's life.

4) signing songs is a minor issue. The deaf, with only 1 exception, never follow along, much like only 10% of the hearing congregation sing along with the choir. The choir director is very aware of the 'performing' vs. 'leading' issues, as are we interpreters. Should we sign songs SEE? convert to ASL? We debate that song by song. Without ASL the meaning is often obscured by virtue of the 'church speak' used in the lyrics. If we sign ASL the meaning comes through but the 'poetry' of the song is lost. We are very aware that it may seem like we are performing, but to really get the meaning and feel of the song some of that is necessary. If the words/meaning are about a dramatic event we have to be dramatic too.

I tend to use a more PSE mode for congregational songs that will be copied, and ASL for special songs done by the choir, soloists, and groups.

As far as I'm concerned, all hymns have heart, so there is always some kind of emotional expression. That goes for signed hymns, vocalized hymns, or instrumentally played hymns.

1) the deaf are ALWAYS supportive, no matter how good or bad we do on any given day. When the deaf/hh see a paniced look on my face they often feed me a sign.

Remember, "deaf/hh" is an adjective, not a noun.

Your other terp team members should be feeding the signs to you. You should not look panicked; keep it inside.

2) sometimes the preacher is just way too fast to keep up with, so we condense as best we can.

3) the text in readings often have very awkward language, even for the hearing. Things like double negatives and 'church speak' phrases 20 words long that we might condense to 'eternal God'. Also if there are a list of similar constructed sentences we might change it to an enumeration structure. Also there is often confusion as to which person a pronoun is referring back to, so we replace the pronoun with the correct person reference, otherwise (we are told) that the deaf don't know who we are signing about (e.g., Moses, God, burning bush, an angel,...).

That's what an ITP is for. Terps learn how to rephrase without losing meaning, and how to index for pronouns. Also, the terp doesn't always have to explain biblical terminology. Hearing people don't know all the terms either. It's up to the pastor to explain what terms and passages mean--that's what preaching is all about.

 

[ChurchBoy]

One other thing, we have more than one Deaf church where I live. Do you not have any there?

in our area there is one other church that I know of that has a deaf community. We have a church where some members use interpreters. I don't understand the question.

 

[Reba]

well, of course I see a person ... and his individual needs. What I don't know is the correct way to express this.

Have you had any courses in Deaf culture? Do you socialize with the Deaf community outside of church events?

It's also a matter of developing sensitivity. Don't refer to people as their descriptives.

 

[Bottesini]

in our area there is one other church that I know of that has a deaf community. We have a church where some members use interpreters. I don't understand the question.

Calvary Lutheran Church for the Deaf

Observe

 

[dogmom]

"One deaf/blind... Seems like an object. That must be a person, is what dogmom is saying, it does seem like you don't see a person. "<end quote from Botti>


"...think what dogmom meant was not referring to people by their disability/condition but rather their personal status such as member, visitor, participant, etc. " <end quote from Reba>

TRUE THAT Bott and Reba

 

[dogmom]

I see the editing too from OP, that's good

 

[ChurchBoy]

You have one SEE transliterator, one RID/NAD certified terp, and you, correct? Other than the certified terp, what training do you and the SEE user have? ITP?

I don't even know what ITP is. The SEE 'transliterator' is married to a deaf lady, that's his training. I am both self taught and trained by our certified terp. I go to whatever ASL classes I can. Some of the local certified terps give classes occasionally. I started out just doing the simple responses and over time have been given more and more responsibility. We would all LOVE to be certified, but that's not realistic. We have others who occasionally interpret too, some school interpreters, some CODA, and others. Our certified terp is the mother of deaf children, all adopted, and is highly trained and does all kinds of professional interpreting including legal and medical.

Do you mean someone interprets using tactile sign? Is that person trained in tactile signing?

Yes, an SEE and an ASL member relay the signs.
I doubt if they have formal training. Everyone involved seems happy with the arrangement and they seem to prefer it that way.

If it's been clearly explained that the ritual practice is to respond, and the responses are clearly signed, yet they choose not to, that's life.

Understood. I was just giving context.

I tend to use a more PSE mode for congregational songs that will be copied, and ASL for special songs done by the choir, soloists, and groups.

As far as I'm concerned, all hymns have heart, so there is always some kind of emotional expression. That goes for signed hymns, vocalized hymns, or instrumentally played hymns.

Thank you.

Remember, "deaf/hh" is an adjective, not a noun.

Double thank you. This is the kind of thing I am looking for. A helpful suggestion.

Your other terp team members should be feeding the signs to you. You should not look panicked; keep it inside.

I try to not panic, but sometimes it shows. The other team members do most of the feeding, I was trying to point out the helpfulness of others too. Sometimes I'm the 'feeder' too, even to the certified terp who maybe missed a word.

That's what an ITP is for. Terps learn how to rephrase without losing meaning, and how to index for pronouns. Also, the terp doesn't always have to explain biblical terminology. Hearing people don't know all the terms either. It's up to the pastor to explain what terms and passages mean--that's what preaching is all about.

Yup, that's the goal. Again, ITP?? We do the best we can with what we have.

thanks for those helpful comments.

 

[Bottesini]

Interpreter Training Program

 

[ChurchBoy]

Calvary Lutheran Church for the Deaf

Observe

Los Angeles is a big place. I know of one Catholic church that is entirely a deaf community with a signing pastor and it's near downtown Los Angeles. The other church I mentioned in our area is a 'Church of Christ', mine a Roman Catholic parish. Down in Riverside there is a 'School for the Deaf'' near another Catholic church and they have a big community there.

 

[ChurchBoy]

Interpreter Training Program

ah! My ITP has been ad hoc. I get most of my deaf culture instruction from our cert terp and do as much research as I can (like joining this Forum). Our local college does not offer a Deaf Culture class, and only 4 semesters of ASL. I've been told that my skills exceed those classes so I haven't taken them.

If I lived near CSUN I'd surely have more formal education in this area, they have a good program there.

To answer another question, I occasionally go to a pizza night but mostly I feel like an outsider there. Everyone is courteous enough, but it's awkward. When I meet someone one on one out and about we communicate fine.