Carbon tax ruled unconstitutional

[kokonut]

Of things to come.....

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This obscene French carbon tax was actually about to become law on Jan1, 2010 that would cost France a steep price of 17 euros per ton of carbon dioxide (USD $24.40). This is a stunning move. A big blow to global warming screamers everywhere. This "carbon tax" was found unconstitutional and thrown out.

Finally, somebody there with enough common sense to see the folly of this carbon tax scheme that does nothing.

 

[Loghead]

Of course the carbon tax does nothing. All it does is give the government some extra cash in their back pockets. Stephane Dion (AKA "The Idiot"), the previous leader of the Liberal Party, wanted to impose carbon taxes. He put his ENTIRE focus on greener ways of doing things and not on the things that mattered [at the time], such as the economy. Months later, when he began to finally focus on the economy, he blamed the Harper government for not wanting to put forth more effort to help the economy. :roll: Oh, how I disliked him. And this is the reason why so many Liberals in my country vote for the Conservative Party. Kinda screwy, huh?

 

[inspirabull]

a similar bat brained idea

Surfaced in New Zealand where there was a large effort by the government a few years ago to get livestock growers to convert land from grazing to timber.
Many of them did it. Then all of a sudden the government wants to tax them on the carbon value of their trees. There is a reason people go stone conservative and it is all kinds of idiotic notions like these that do it.

 

[Loghead]

Surfaced in New Zealand where there was a large effort by the government a few years ago to get livestock growers to convert land from grazing to timber.
Many of them did it. Then all of a sudden the government wants to tax them on the carbon value of their trees.

Why did they want them to switch in the first place? I know that New Zealand contributes a lot of greenhouse gases because of their sheep, so I wonder if maybe the new food was going to help reduce that.

 

[inspirabull]

I can only speculate

I do not recall their reasoning for building up timber stocks. It is a good thing to do though and diversifies an economy. Not to mention the whole theory of trees contribution to the health of the planet. Me I like working with trees and wood so I pay attention to news concerning that. The state of Washington is easing into a program of wanting to pay a small revenue in carbon value to timberland owners. I tend to think of what I read about in New Zealand and see it as backhanded trickery to seek a new revenue base. At what point are they going say okay we have established carbon value as a real asset now let us tax it?

 

[Foxrac]

Carbon tax is just dumb, I don't believe in any extra fee for use carbon since carbon is must for our life, such as electricity, gas, oil, etc.

 

[kokonut]

That's exactly what this cap and trade that's coming up next for America is all about. Carbon tax. And the justification for that is to "help reverse global warming." That's what the carbon tax is about. It's a taxation on any CO2, not just carbon but CO2. You'll never see them say "carbon dioxide tax."

 

[Foxrac]

That's exactly what this cap and trade that's coming up next for America is all about. Carbon tax. And the justification for that is to "help reverse global warming." That's what the carbon tax is about. It's a taxation on any CO2, not just carbon but CO2. You'll never see them say "carbon dioxide tax."

Oh ok, odd and I don't see any carbon tax in US but just cap and trade like you said.

I do believe you after you showed youtube about ice polar goes shrink then regain in some years like you said in 2008 and 2009 has regain, now, I have hard time to believe about global warming, especially Al Gore is one of them.

 

[kokonut]

Cap and trade legislation. They'll try and pass it in 2010. If both the Health Care and the Cap-n-Trade bills pass, then the average American family will find themselves paying an additional $6,000 to $10,000 more a year.

 

[kokonut]

Oh ok, odd and I don't see any carbon tax in US but just cap and trade like you said.

I do believe you after you showed youtube about ice polar goes shrink then regain in some years like you said in 2008 and 2009 has regain, now, I have hard time to believe about global warming, especially Al Gore is one of them.

The cap and trade bill will be considered in the 2010 legislation in Congress in the attempt to impose a carbon dioxide tax.

How loony is that?

 

[FxAvatar]

Carbon tax is just dumb, I don't believe in any extra fee for use carbon since carbon is must for our life, such as electricity, gas, oil, etc.

Well, personally I tend to disagree with the statement that it is needed for our life in the form of electricity, gas, oil, ect. It is it is a must for life in the form that it is needed for vegetation to convert to Oxygen, that we in turn need to live. The production of electricity can be done cleanly. It is more costly then the already established system we have now due to re-tooling costs and construction costs. Also, some methods are regional, after all, some parts of the world do not see the sun for weeks or even months at a time, so solar would not be as efficient in these zones.

As for gas, oil, ect, these are older and cheaper forms of stored energy, but they do have one major drawback. It takes time to make these forms of stored energy. They are created at such a slow pace that it will not be possible to re-create them in a quantity or rate that we are consuming them. So for NOW they are cheap, but give it a few years, as the demand becomes higher (after all, world pop is going up, and more and more countries are starting to demand the resources that did not need them in the past). Then look at supply, even if you do not believe in the idea that it is dirty to extract the energy from these sources, you can not disagree on the quantifiable, measurable, FACT that the amount available is finite. I understand that there are levels of availability, and areas that are more costly to extract then others and the rate of consumption to amount of supply will change from report to report, but even if you count these places, the amount of these resources on our planet do not increase.

Now before you think I am all for this joke called a “Carbon Tax” think again. The politicians are again aiming at a great target but not wanting to shot their own stuff that is in the way so they shot the wrong target. The place we get our stored energy needs to change, not tax a randomly guessed amount on the people just to make the lawmakers feel better as they fly around in private jets.

Here is a little reminder:
How much do you think manufacturers pay in taxes every year?
How much do you think retailers pay in taxes every year?
How much do you think insurance companies and other service providers pay every year?
Answer.. NONE.. all taxes and fees are PASSED DOWN in the cost of the final good or service to US.. This is a true constant in the business world. Raising the tax on a business is really rasing the taxes on the public.

 

[Foxrac]

Cap and trade legislation. They'll try and pass it in 2010. If both the Health Care and the Cap-n-Trade bills pass, then the average American family will find themselves paying an additional $6,000 to $10,000 more a year.

For health care reform, I think that extra taxes are applies to families with high income, not low or middle class, that what bill say from House or Senate, I know about them that passed separate bill and need merge, they cites about different taxes would be formed.

For cap and trade, I hope that senate would smart so enough to stop it if too extreme or expensive for us.

 

[kokonut]

Correct, all taxes and fees born by the industries are simply passed on down to the consumers in the form of higher product and services costs. It's a feel good notion thinking it'll hurt the corporations but what it does is hurt the consumers own pocketbooks.

As for oil and gas, we barely even touched it. Today's oil drilling technology allows up to reach deeper, farther and even at a different angle which allows us to tap into places that weren't accessible 5, 10, 20 years ago. Also, consider the vast field of methane hydrate in the territories of the U.S. which by some estimates to hold the largest reserves in the world. The same for oil found in oil shale (not to be confused with shale oil which is different) whose recoverable reserve easily beats Saudi Arabia's and the Middle East's own oil reserve. You have the northern latitudes above the Arctic circle to consider, even Alaska, along the U.S. coastal boundaries that hold even more oil reserves. Oil and gas are quite plentiful and we've yet even to tap the majority of oil on earth. Earth is big. Oil is constantly seeping naturally out of the Earth surface and beneath the ocean water where the amount leaked easily overwhelms any one year's oil spillage by man. We just cannot access those due to politicals and by special interest groups like certain environmental wackos. Why do you think we went from using 70 percent of our own domestic oil some 30 years ago while we imported oil that make up the 30 percent to see a reversal where 70 percent of our oil is imported while 30 percent is domestic? Why? Politics. We have plenty of oil. Why do you think China is buying up all the oil around the globe? Oil is easy to store. Has a high energy density. Can be converted into many different fuels. Can be used for thousands of products.

Oil drilling will continue as technology and the economy permits it. We're already increasing our drilling in the Bakken oil fields of North Dakota. What makes you think that this will stop anytime soon?

It won't.

 

[Foxrac]

The cap and trade bill will be considered in the 2010 legislation in Congress in the attempt to impose a carbon dioxide tax.

How loony is that?

Okay, I rather to wait and see, it maybe chance to not pass.

 

[kokonut]

For health care reform, I think that extra taxes are applies to families with high income, not low or middle class, that what bill say from House or Senate, I know about them that passed separate bill and need merge, they cites about different taxes would be formed.

For cap and trade, I hope that senate would smart so enough to stop it if too extreme or expensive for us.

Just like cap and trade, it will affect everybody. Businesses will be forced to change over to a govt mandated health care which WILL increase their costs of doing business and that means higher costs for their products and services. The costs will, again, be passed on down to the consumers, rich or poor. Foxrac, you need to realize that any additional costs born businesses are simply passed on down to the consumers whether it's higher gasoline prices, more taxes, or increase costs of additional health care coverage as mandated by the govt, you will see costs passed on to you, me, the consumers everywhere.

 

[Foxrac]

Just like cap and trade, it will affect everybody. Businesses will be forced to change over to a govt mandated health care which WILL increase their costs of doing business and that means higher costs for their products and services. The costs will, again, be passed on down to the consumers, rich or poor. Foxrac, you need to realize that any additional costs born businesses are simply passed on down to the consumers whether it's higher gasoline prices, more taxes, or increase costs of additional health care coverage as mandated by the govt, you will see costs passed on to you, me, the consumers everywhere.

But only problem is insurance companies are unable to fix the health crisis that where millions of Americans has no health insurance and they really don't want change or reform, such as ban on pre-existing condition or have dedicated insurance at low price, don't want deal with exclusive insurance that provided by workplace, it does cause government, especially democrats to move and pass the health care reform, even public options aren't included in senate version and I had heard from CNN about public options will drop when merge with between senate and house version, I know that some plans, such as public options will dropped.

Now, you are really can't live without insurance so when insurance become more expensive so when you have health problem and needed insurance so badly? Medicaid and Medicare are freakly cheap and not good as private insurance does, had done with illness under Medicaid and don't like it. I want have cheap good insurance, especially private that I could afford.

That's really sad about health care in US has went screw up.

Back in old times, if you retire from job in 80's and 90's so you will keep insurance when you retires but not anymore, that's sad again.

 

[kokonut]

Insurance offers people a variety of choices. There are thousands of these insurances to choose from. It's all about options to choose from, not about the attempt to put the insurance industry out of business which is what the govt is planning to do. Several senators have expressed this hope and for the govt to become the de facto govt run insurance "company."

Are you suggesting that our govt is very efficient in what they do? Look at Medicare. We see $60 billion dollars a year disappear through fraud and waste. The govt isn't interested in making a profit. They can simply keep printing more money which will cause inflation to go up.

 

[Foxrac]

Insurance offers people a variety of choices. There are thousands of these insurances to choose from. It's all about options to choose from, not about the attempt to put the insurance industry out of business which is what the govt is planning to do. Several senators have expressed this hope and for the govt to become the de facto govt run insurance "company."

Are you suggesting that our govt is very efficient in what they do? Look at Medicare. We see $60 billion dollars a year disappear through fraud and waste. The govt isn't interested in making a profit. They can simply keep printing more money which will cause inflation to go up.

Like I said, I cannot afford to get private insurance, either from my job or dedicated insurance, even I have health problem that dedicated insurance require exam to check, it could be more expensive if my health got worse so you left me no choice because I couldn't afford, even no alternative, excluding Medicaid or Medicare.

Your post isn't true because not everyone could afford to get insurance, regardless on different plans or choices but still more expensive.

 

[kokonut]

There is an insurance called COBRA. You have medicare and medicaid if you qualify. There are state insurance options. There are employer group insurances you can participate in. You can always set aside your own money in a separate savings account to help pay for any future medical bills provided that they're not exhorbant. Saving money against medical bills is a form of insurance but it means you are hedging your bet that won't need versus an insurance where you are hedging your bet that you will need it.

 

[FxAvatar]

Correct, all taxes and fees born by the industries are simply passed on down to the consumers in the form of higher product and services costs. It's a feel good notion thinking it'll hurt the corporations but what it does is hurt the consumers own pocketbooks.

As for oil and gas, we barely even touched it. Today's oil drilling technology allows up to reach deeper, farther and even at a different angle which allows us to tap into places that weren't accessible 5, 10, 20 years ago. Also, consider the vast field of methane hydrate in the territories of the U.S. which by some estimates to hold the largest reserves in the world. The same for oil found in oil shale (not to be confused with shale oil which is different) whose recoverable reserve easily beats Saudi Arabia's and the Middle East's own oil reserve. You have the northern latitudes above the Arctic circle to consider, even Alaska, along the U.S. coastal boundaries that hold even more oil reserves. Oil and gas are quite plentiful and we've yet even to tap the majority of oil on earth. Earth is big. Oil is constantly seeping naturally out of the Earth surface and beneath the ocean water where the amount leaked easily overwhelms any one year's oil spillage by man. We just cannot access those due to politicals and by special interest groups like certain environmental wackos. Why do you think we went from using 70 percent of our own domestic oil some 30 years ago while we imported oil that make up the 30 percent to see a reversal where 70 percent of our oil is imported while 30 percent is domestic? Why? Politics. We have plenty of oil. Why do you think China is buying up all the oil around the globe? Oil is easy to store. Has a high energy density. Can be converted into many different fuels. Can be used for thousands of products.

Oil drilling will continue as technology and the economy permits it. We're already increasing our drilling in the Bakken oil fields of North Dakota. What makes you think that this will stop anytime soon?

It won't.

I think you have kind of gone onto a tangent from the org. topic of the carbon-tax to medical insurance, but as for the source of oil on the planet, do I think that we are close to touching it, yes, are we close to running out, no. It is more of a consumption curve. Yes we have new tech that can keep the old ideas of power alive. The question is should we? As harder and harder to extract oil becomes our primary source, we will se higher and higher costs to get it. The companies are not going to take a hit on the profit margin; these costs will be passed down. Do I think they will stop going after these sources of oil, of course not, that is what they make money doing. If a drug dealer’s growing fields are pinched, does he say “well dam, there goes all that great money, time to get a different job”? NO, he says “Time to find a new field to grow in”. Oil is the same way, right now everyone wants it, a few dealers sell it, and as long as they make tons of cash to harvest it, they will.

The trick is for nations that can afford to move away from oil to do so. Oil is fine for developing countries, but really now; we can do so much better. We can develop other sources that are clean like wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal. Note I do not list hydrogen, since it is not a source of energy, but a method to store it unless you blow something up with it (fission anyone? And it would be listed under nuclear). Or other sources that are “cleaner” like Plasma Gasification (one of my personal favorites we need to develop more here in the USA), sub-atomic fusion (still developing to become effective), and even nuclear (kind of iffy on this one, since it is based again off of a limited source).

Do I think we will go “oil free”? Not for many, many years to come. The trick is going to be finding a balance in the intermediate while we slowly move to a better world. Personally I would like to see all inner city cars go pure electric or a electric based mass transit. I have only been to a few cities with mass transit, and I know that some are ok, others are really bad. The city I live in uses buses for mass transit and is only used by those without cars. To go from my home to work take 15m without traffic, 30-45m with. To ride mass transit to work, I would have to drive for about 5m to get to the nearest stop, wait for a bus that takes me to a central point downtown, I would have to wait for the second bus that gets close to the right area I work, then get onto a 3rd bus to get from that where I work. Travel time, 3h 45m.