The sun and the earth... on cued speech

[Cloggy]

You got me on that one. I did misread your post. And with fingerspelling, one can represent not just the phonetic spelling of a given word, but the actually spelling as well. Therefore, two representations for the price of one!

:sure:
btw.. Was that an apology?

 

[loml]

 

[Cloggy]

You are completely pitiful. Your time would be much better spent with your daughter in her tender years than posting around in circles as you seem to be so wont to do. Your arguments are so full of holes they leak. Your logic is nonexistent. Your attempt to present a cohesive argument is laughable. You consistently contradict yourself, and have been called on your complete inconsistencies any number of times. You are ridiculas.

So sad... you have to lash out after I point you to your error....

Does it hurt that much to be absolutely wrong!

btw... Pityful and ridiculous
You could use a spelling-checker when you insult someone.....

 

[loml]

 

[jillio]

:sure:
btw.. Was that an apology?

Did you see the word sorry?

 

[jillio]

So sad... you have to lash out after I point you to your error....

Does it hurt that much to be absolutely wrong!

btw... Pityful and ridiculous
You could use a spelling-checker when you insult someone.....

Actually, cloggy, if you will check the sequencing, you will find that you are in error on this one. And you could use a spell checker in the majority of your posts. What's your point?

 

[Cloggy]

Actually, cloggy, if you will check the sequencing, you will find that you are in error on this one.

Am I..??.. Ah yes, "pitiful" ... the english grammar.... so much to learn....

... but still - I'm half right......, in your world "ridiculas" is OK..??. Sounds like a salad to me" ..........

 

[jillio]

Am I..??.. Ah yes, "pitiful" ... the english grammar.... so much to learn....

... but still - I'm half right......, in your world "ridiculas" is OK..??. Sounds like a salad to me" ..........

Speaking of English gammar, one does not "learn someone" one "teaches someone." Once again, you are resorting to grammar checks to divert the issue, but need to take care of your own errors prior to pointing fingers. I picked that error out right away, but did not mention it, as it truly had nothing to do with the issue at hand. However, since you have brought the subject up.....there it is. Additionally, no one is not hyphenated.

 

[Cloggy]

Did you see the word sorry?

No, but I can read between the lines..
Thanks for your apology for "accusing me of saying that Cued Speech would replace ASL, while in fact that idea came from you!"

Apology accepted

 

[Cloggy]

Speaking of English gammar, one does not "learn someone" one "teaches someone." Once again, you are resorting to grammar checks to divert the issue, but need to take care of your own errors prior to pointing fingers. I picked that error out right away, but did not mention it, as it truly had nothing to do with the issue at hand. However, since you have brought the subject up.....there it is. Additionally, no one is not hyphenated.

English grammar

But, where did I misuse teach/learn....

I said "so much to learn" and reflecting on me, wouldn't that be correct.?

 

[jillio]

:sure:

Can't you get soemone to do that for you?

 

[Buffalo]

Are you ever amazed at the lengths to which some people will go in order to defend their perspective on a particular matter? To these people, it is as if common sense and research are simply inconsequential. To them the earth is the center of the universe because someone once said that it was. They interpret the sun's movement from a singular point of view and use this as evidence to support their perspective. In essence, they declare, "The earth does not circle the sun because it does not appear to." Their logic is cyclical rather than factual. Their approach is self-reinforcing rather than curious and seeking. It is as if they believe that the only knowledge to be had is that which they have. Consequently, they fail to progress beyond what they already know.
...


History shows that before progress can be made people must first be willing to venture outside that with which they have become comfortable. They must see the value in something new before they are willing to step beyond their entrenchment. Often, they will first look to the Church to tell them that it is okay to glean from common sense and research. After all, it took a thousand years before scientists overcame condemnation for countering the Church's position on the center of the universe.
...

Common sense and research beckon change. They allow us to progress beyond what we already know. They steer us beyond mere perception, helping us venture outside of an otherwise isolated, self-centered, and self-perpetuating universe. They lead us out of the Dark Ages. Unfortunately, history has shown that common sense and research are more likely burned at the stake.
...


The sun is now poised to shine on a new day in the cueing community, ready to give substance to a new perspective, ready to shine on a more expansive and inclusive universe. But make no mistake about it -- traditional doctrine tends to be most fervently defended during the dawn of change.

Perhaps Schopenhauer says it best:
All truth passes through three stages:
1. First, it is ridiculed,
2. Second, it is violently opposed,
3. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

Cloggy, I know you are talking about cued speech but I can also see how this can talk about ASL. There are people who cling to oralism fiercely because some intellectuals of bygone days (A.G. Bell and those of 1880 Milan) said so. ASL is even ridiculed and looked down on. I know that ASL is violent opposed first hand. Another intellectual (Stokoe) said positive things about ASL and things changed for better somewhat. Notice that they would only listen to a hearing person, not a deaf person. It is a common sense that ASL is a language and a best option for the Deaf. One day, ASL will be accept as self-evident. I only hope that it will be sooner than later.

I am sorry, Cloggy for taking this back to ASL. It is just that I really believe in ASL. I just don't understand why the hearing people want us to go the more expensive and more difficult path to oralism when it is much easier and far cheaper for the hearing people to go by ASL path. The hearing people are really helping themselves in case they lose their hearing either by accident or aging. Once they and everybody else know ASL, they won't be left out and us deaf won't be left out either. This is the win-win situtation. Oralism is where the deaf people are the biggest losers and certain hearing people can be losers once they lose their hearing.

 

[Cloggy]

Cloggy, I know you are talking about cued speech but I can also see how this can talk about ASL. There are people who cling to oralism fiercely because some intellectuals of bygone days (A.G. Bell and those of 1880 Milan) said so. ASL is even ridiculed and looked down on. I know that ASL is violent opposed first hand. Another intellectual (Stokoe) said positive things about ASL and things changed for better somewhat. Notice that they would only listen to a hearing person, not a deaf person. It is a common sense that ASL is a language and a best option for the Deaf. One day, ASL will be accept as self-evident. I only hope that it will be sooner than later.

I am sorry, Cloggy for taking this back to ASL. It is just that I really believe in ASL. I just don't understand why the hearing people want us to go the more expensive and more difficult path to oralism when it is much easier and far cheaper for the hearing people to go by ASL path. The hearing people are really helping themselves in case they lose their hearing either by accident or aging. Once they and everybody else know ASL, they won't be left out and us deaf won't be left out either. This is the win-win situtation. Oralism is where the deaf people are the biggest losers and certain hearing people can be losers once they lose their hearing.

Signlanguage is wonderful if the choice is to be part of a silent world. Speech (with cued speech) is wonderful when deciding to be part of a world with sound. And if you manage both... ASL and Speech that's even better.

 

[Reba]

Signlanguage is wonderful if the choice is to be part of a silent world. Speech (with cued speech) is wonderful when deciding to be part of a world with sound. And if you manage both... ASL and Speech that's even better.

Umm, speech is just one dimension of sound. Acquiring oral communication skills isn't the same thing as being "part of a world with sound." The most skilled speech readers with the most perfect speech still can't hear sounds if they are profoundly deaf.

I'm not dissin' anyone; it's just reality. Reading lips and talking like a hearing person isn't the same thing as hearing.

By the same token, many HoH folks and CI users can hear sounds but choose to use ASL for communication. Their world isn't "silent" but it isn't necessarily "oral" either.

Perhaps you mean "hearing" world vs. "Deaf" world? That is, the world as society rather than the world of nature?

 

[Cloggy]

Umm, speech is just one dimension of sound. Acquiring oral communication skills isn't the same thing as being "part of a world with sound." The most skilled speech readers with the most perfect speech still can't hear sounds if they are profoundly deaf.

I'm not dissin' anyone; it's just reality. Reading lips and talking like a hearing person isn't the same thing as hearing.

By the same token, many HoH folks and CI users can hear sounds but choose to use ASL for communication. Their world isn't "silent" but it isn't necessarily "oral" either.

Perhaps you mean "hearing" world vs. "Deaf" world? That is, the world as society rather than the world of nature?

True

 

[jillio]

Umm, speech is just one dimension of sound. Acquiring oral communication skills isn't the same thing as being "part of a world with sound." The most skilled speech readers with the most perfect speech still can't hear sounds if they are profoundly deaf.

I'm not dissin' anyone; it's just reality. Reading lips and talking like a hearing person isn't the same thing as hearing.

By the same token, many HoH folks and CI users can hear sounds but choose to use ASL for communication. Their world isn't "silent" but it isn't necessarily "oral" either.

Perhaps you mean "hearing" world vs. "Deaf" world? That is, the world as society rather than the world of nature?

Very succinctly put, Reba.

 

[shel90]

Umm, speech is just one dimension of sound. Acquiring oral communication skills isn't the same thing as being "part of a world with sound." The most skilled speech readers with the most perfect speech still can't hear sounds if they are profoundly deaf.

I'm not dissin' anyone; it's just reality. Reading lips and talking like a hearing person isn't the same thing as hearing.

By the same token, many HoH folks and CI users can hear sounds but choose to use ASL for communication. Their world isn't "silent" but it isn't necessarily "oral" either.

Perhaps you mean "hearing" world vs. "Deaf" world? That is, the world as society rather than the world of nature?

Yea, that makes better sense and so true. Reading lips doesnt really equate to the deaf person's ability to use oral language.

 

[jillio]

I always took my kids to ASL classes when I could. The Deaf instructors loved
to include them in the activities we did as a class. You will have lots of fun with your ASL class! Remember though, ASL is almost like learning two languages to the brain. You have expressive skills, (you signing) and receptive skills (watching people sign). I am finding that video taping myself signing is helping me even more than watching videos of other people sign. (helping with my receptive)
But beware! Its much like hearing yourself for the first time on a tape player and you go! Yuck! My voice doesn't sound like that! When you see yourself signing for the first time you will have much the same reaction. You will go, Ewwww! I don't look like that when I sign! By the way its just not the same in a mirror!

Learning any languge requires that one learn both receptive and expressive skills. These are two facets that are inherent in language, whether oral or manual.

 

[fredfam1]

Learning any languge requires that one learn both receptive and expressive skills. These are two facets that are inherent in language, whether oral or manual.

Yes but there is one difference. When a hearing person speaks, they can
also hear what they are saying at the same time. Then they can listen to
others to see if it sounds the same. You are expressing and recieving at the
same moment. But I think this is slightly different with manual languages.
You can only see yourself signing from one visual orientation. Top, inside.
When you watch someone sign you are seeing it from another entirely different
orientation. In esscence you are learning receptive skill 1 and receptive skill 2 so to speak. I can't find the same correlation with auditory languages.

 

[jillio]

Yes but there is one difference. When a hearing person speaks, they can
also hear what they are saying at the same time. Then they can listen to
others to see if it sounds the same. You are expressing and recieving at the
same moment. But I think this is slightly different with manual languages.
You can only see yourself signing from one visual orientation. Top, inside.
When you watch someone sign you are seeing it from another entirely different
orientation. In esscence you are learning receptive skill 1 and receptive skill 2 so to speak. I can't find the same correlation with auditory languages.

The brain processes receptively and expresssively in the same way with auditory and visual languages. Once does not listen to one's exressive language production in the same way that one listens to another's expressive language production, thus accounting frot the difference in expressive and receptive skills.