Acoustic Characteristics of the Speech of Young Cochlear Implant Users

[shel90]

Don't allow a few to pass judgement. I am deaf with bilateral CI. I am also frustrated about the small amount of people who seem so anti-CI or anti-oral, don't allow others to push your son away from the Deaf culture. I hope you son will help others to see that you can be an oral deaf person.

Just like Jackie told me that she wishes I can see the successful oral deaf children, I wish u and her can see what happens to children who are deprived of language. That's my whole point!!! That is what makes me anti-oral ONLY not anti-oral. YOu and Jackie are missing the point..u think we are anti-CI and anti-oral when it is not true. The truth is we are against denying deaf children full access to language and the ideas that sign language interferes with deaf children's spoken language development. Is there something so bad about that? Also, we are not against the children themselves. We are against the kinds of practices and approaches that deprives the children of full access to language. BIG DIFFERENCE! As teachers, you should be able to understand that but yet, u label us anti-CI, anti-oral, or that the Deaf community is full of people who look down on oral deaf people.


I was raised orally and I am happy to have good oral skills but what I am not happy about is the denial of sign language and no opportunities to interact with the Deaf community as a child. I am not happy that my brother suffered for 5 years before he was exposed to ASL therefore retarding his language development. Like I told Rick48 before, that is my passion....for all deaf children to be given the same rights as hearing children.

If that doesnt clear up what our views and feelings are about, then I dont know what will clear all these misconceptions about what we are against or not against.

 

[shel90]

Shel, I do teach. I might not teach deaf education, but I do teach children who are language impaired. It is heart breaking. ASL is not the cure-all. Just like aspirin is not the only cure for a headache.

I have also taught a few children that have parents who are deaf. The language delay is also there for the hearing children as well. I had one who was only taught ASL at home, and she was at least 2 years delay in language. What did I do - I got her in speech class and worked with the parents to help the child. I tutored the child after school. Is that preventable too?

I wish I can tutor kids after school but who will watch my son while I do that cuz my husband doesnt get home until 7 PM daily. HMMMMM....


I have taught deaf children from deaf families with language delays cuz it was because they were born with congitive disabilities such as Down's syndrome or Asper's sydrome. I am speaking of those who were born with NO other disabilities and yet they become more disabled due to the lack of language access. That is what I am talking about.

 

[shel90]

So should they just take the negative comments? Should their children take the abuse and name calling? Should they place them in educational evironments that provides negative teachers or negative comments about their children's CIs? Should they allow their children to be put throught that? They are protecting their children from harm - emotional harm. I agree with them.

Rick, Cloggy, and Jackie - I hope your children exposure the world the positives and negatives of being oral deaf. I for one, enjoy hearing about their progress as well as anything that is not working.

Nobody is being negative about the children's CIs. At my work, we accept all children and we dont discriminate them. That would be very unprofessional and stupid.

Ok, then what to do when hearing peers make fun of deaf children in the mainstreamed programs? Remove them from those schools to protect them from emotional harm? I was constantly made fun of day in and out in middle school by my hearing peers so was I protected? What makes protecting them from the Deaf community so different from protecting those in the hearing world that put deaf children through emotional harm? Isolate them from the whole world? Yes, those who said that to Rick are wrong and I dont condone it but to hold a whole community responsilbe or to protect them from a whole community because of some people who are mean is going way too far. If that should be the case then they should be protected from the hearing community cuz there are some hearing people who harrass and call deaf children nasty names too.

 

[vallee]

Just like Jackie told me that she wishes I can see the successful oral deaf children, I wish u and her can see what happens to children who are deprived of language. That's my whole point!!! That is what makes me anti-oral ONLY not anti-oral. YOu and Jackie are missing the point..u think we are anti-CI and anti-oral when it is not true. The truth is we are against denying deaf children full access to language and the ideas that sign language interferes with deaf children's spoken language development. Is there something so bad about that? Also, we are not against the children themselves. We are against the kinds of practices and approaches that deprives the children of full access to language. BIG DIFFERENCE! As teachers, you should be able to understand that but yet, u label us anti-CI, anti-oral, or that the Deaf community is full of people who look down on oral deaf people.


I was raised orally and I am happy to have good oral skills but what I am not happy about is the denial of sign language and no opportunities to interact with the Deaf community as a child. I am not happy that my brother suffered for 5 years before he was exposed to ASL therefore retarding his language development. Like I told Rick48 before, that is my passion....for all deaf children to be given the same rights as hearing children.
If that doesnt clear up what our views and feelings are about, then I dont know what will clear all these misconceptions about what we are against or not against.

I am for each and every child to have the best educational environment. I don't agree with all means all. Not all deaf children learn the same. Not all children learn the same. That is why we tier lessons, use strategies, and provide services.

I'm sorry your brother did have get the exposure to ASL he needed. I went 7 years without a hearing aid because the doctors did not agree with hearing aids for nerve damage. My mom keep teaching me sounds and making the school accountable for teaching me. She kept taking me from doctor to doctor until she found one that would try hearing aids. That is what my parent did. She gave me the best she could, and that is what our CI parents are trying to do as well.(my opinion)

Why was the deaf community and deaf teachers not breaking the door down to help your brother? Why were the schools not held accountable? Where was the deaf community for the 5 years your brother suffered?

 

[shel90]

I am for each and every child to have the best educational environment. I don't agree with all means all. Not all deaf children learn the same. Not all children learn the same. That is why we tier lessons, use strategies, and provide services.

I'm sorry your brother did have get the exposure to ASL he needed. I went 7 years without a hearing aid because the doctors did not agree with hearing aids for nerve damage. My mom keep teaching me sounds and making the school accountable for teaching me. She kept taking me from doctor to doctor until she found one that would try hearing aids. That is what my parent did. She gave me the best she could, and that is what our CI parents are trying to do as well.(my opinion)

Why was the deaf community and deaf teachers not breaking the door down to help your brother? Why were the schools not held accountable? Where was the deaf community for the 5 years your brother suffered?

Because they didnt know he existed. If it is the Deaf community and Deaf teacher's responsilbilty to break down the doors for every deaf child that is born, then we would need access to their information, addresses, and so forth from the hospitals but then again that would be going against the patient's privacy rights, wouldnt it? Most of the "experts" the parents first interact have a bias against ASL and the Deaf community so those are the people they turn to for advice. I would have to become an audi or doctor myself to get that kind of info first-hand.

The Deaf community and deaf teachers didnt know that my brother and I existed so how can they come and break our doors down? I wish they knew about us since birth but my mom was told by the stupid doctors and audis that by exposing us to sign language would prevent us from being "normal". Such powerful words to a newly parent of deaf babies...I would be scared shitless of sign language myself if I was given that same misconception.

Besides not everyone in the Deaf community is interested in Deaf education just like not everyone in the hearing community is interested in education. We cant force people to do things that they are not interested in.

I am holding the schools and teachers who use those kinds of practices accountable.

 

[jillio]

Yes you have, and you're doing it right now:
I have never claimed that.... and don't think so.... why are you saying that?

..............​

... it isn't... and how are you to judge that I am wrong in that assumption?

..............​

..... I have mentioned it frequently; in AllDeaf, and in Lotte's blog. Actually, what I failed to mention is that her language delay is reducing...

.........​

.....
So, Jillio, can you please stop making accusations that are totally without any foundation?

I have a strong foundation for everything I have said. You, on the other hand, can provide no foundation for your claim that sign language is inhibiting to the oral development of language. Perhaps you don't see a two year language delay as a problem, but believe me, when it comes to literacy, academic achievement, and social competence as displayed through interactions with peers, a two year langauge delay is significant. And a significant delay will be compounded as the need for greater skills increases witht he child's age.

 

[jillio]

Exposing to language. Dutch at home, and Norwegian outside the home.
In the kindergarten she has a speech-therapist who comes 3 x a week for an hour and works with her...

When she started to hear, she was about 2-1/4 years old. Staring in the kindergarten (summer 2006) made quite an impact. With a Reynell-test in 2006-12 she was at a 2-years-old level, last test (2007-9, 9 months later) she was at a 3.6 years-old level. That's 1.4 years behind.
She's catching up.

Would that be receptively, expressively, or combined? And speech therapy does not address delays, but errors in expressive mechanics.

 

[jillio]

Its Marschark. Here is his homepage.

Marc Marschark's Home Page

He seems to have a lot of research in press. Might be interesting to read his research since his research is current.

Absolutley his research is current and extremely significant. And you seemed to be able to find him despite my typo....so your point is?

 

[jillio]

This might be a good college textbook to read.

Oxford University Press: Advances in the Spoken-Language Development of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Children: Patricia Elizabeth Spencer

Advances in the Spoken Language Development of Deaf and Hard of Hearing Children

It seems to discuss cochlear implants as a benefit for spoken language development and well as hearing aids.

And it also states that the greatest advances were seen in children exposed to both sign and speech, not just in their development of spoken language but in their ability to actually use language and to develop advanced literacy skills. Are you interested only in a deaf child's ability to parrot words, or intheir ability to use language to develop critical thinking skills and literacy?

 

[shel90]

And it also states that the greatest advances were seen in children exposed to both sign and speech, not just in their development of spoken language but in their ability to actually use language and to develop advanced literacy skills. Are you interested only in a deaf child's ability to parrot words, or intheir ability to use language to develop critical thinking skills and literacy?

I think that is what they dont understand about us and what we stand for. This has nothing to do with being against CIs and spoken language as shown by their labels of us as anti-CI, and anti-oral deaf children. :roll:

 

[vallee]

Nobody is being negative about the children's CIs. At my work, we accept all children and we dont discriminate them. That would be very unprofessional and stupid.

Ok, then what to do when hearing peers make fun of deaf children in the mainstreamed programs? Remove them from those schools to protect them from emotional harm? I was constantly made fun of day in and out in middle school by my hearing peers so was I protected? What makes protecting them from the Deaf community so different from protecting those in the hearing world that put deaf children through emotional harm? Isolate them from the whole world? Yes, those who said that to Rick are wrong and I dont condone it but to hold a whole community responsilbe or to protect them from a whole community because of some people who are mean is going way too far. If that should be the case then they should be protected from the hearing community cuz there are some hearing people who harrass and call deaf children nasty names too.

I can use my own personal experiences as well. But not all deaf children have the same experiences. I had a wonderful middle and high school time. I loved every minute of it.

About bullying - that same child who is bullying a HOH/deaf child is most likely bullying the child who is wearing highwaters or the one who has on "kmart" sneakers.

I am not getting into a flaming match with you, Shel. I have very strong beliefs as you do. I don't agree with all you say and I know you don't agree with what I say, but I respect you.

 

[jillio]

I understand the importances of ASL, it is not a cure-all either. There should be a number of strategies used to improve spoken language and comprehension of written language. And if you go to the homepage of the author, he is very much pro-ASL.

Yes, he is pro-ASL because he has an understanding of the importance of early language acquisition to later cognive development of these deaf children. He also understands that as child's ability to speak is not directly related to their ability to internalize language and use it creatively to develop critical thinking skills or facillitate their overall cognitive and emotional development.

 

[vallee]

And it also states that the greatest advances were seen in children exposed to both sign and speech, not just in their development of spoken language but in their ability to actually use language and to develop advanced literacy skills. Are you interested only in a deaf child's ability to parrot words, or intheir ability to use language to develop critical thinking skills and literacy?

I am interested in education, literacy and language. And yes, I see you as anti -CI and also anti-oral. I see myself as pro-children. Not just deaf, but all children.

 

[shel90]

I can use my own personal experiences as well. But not all deaf children have the same experiences. I had a wonderful middle and high school time. I loved every minute of it.

About bullying - that same child who is bullying a HOH/deaf child is most likely bullying the child who is wearing highwaters or the one who has on "kmart" sneakers.

I am not getting into a flaming match with you, Shel. I have very strong beliefs as you do. I don't agree with all you say and I know you don't agree with what I say, but I respect you.

That's fine but can u answer my question how is that different from protecting their kids from the Deaf community as a whole just because some people were mean to them? Sure there will be mean people in this world both in the Deaf and hearing communities but to hold a whole community responsible is where they become just as wrong as those who were mean to them. We cant always protect our children from everything that is harmful anyway. That was my point. Yes, I was made fun of and no, I wasnt protected cuz that is a reality of life but them protecting their children from the Deaf community is just plain discrimination against anyone who is involved with the Deaf community.

I dont want to get into a flame war with u but I get frustrated when people call us anti this or that when it is not true.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

What makes u think that I havent been exposed to children like yours? Just because a few oral deaf children are successful doesnt make it ok that others fail. What makes that right?

In your case you have only seen a few successful oral deaf kids, in my case I have only seen a few kids not be successful with oral language and in my case all of them have been because parents have not followed through the way they needed to.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I am interested in education, literacy and language. And yes, I see you as anti -CI and also anti-oral. I see myself as pro-children. Not just deaf, but all children.

I agree with you completely, I see Shel and Jillo as pro-Deaf culture. And I am all about children and making decisions based on that particular child and whatever works for that child not what has worked for other children but that child and that child's needs.

 

[shel90]

In your case you have only seen a few successful oral deaf kids, in my case I have only seen a few kids not be successful with oral language and in my case all of them have been because parents have not followed through the way they needed to.

And it is those successful oral kids who admit that they wish they had been exposed to sign language and the Deaf community too. At least u are exposing your kids to sign language and the Deaf community but not all parents do that. However, that is not my point..my point is about the educational setting for deaf children. If children with CIs can hear so well as u claim then why do they need CART to get full access to information? Not being against CART but it shows that the deaf child is in an environment where all the info in the educational setting is not fully accessible just like it is for hearing children. That is my whole point. Maybe your kids are happy with that ..probably cuz they know they have their deaf friends to go to meet their sense of belonging and that is what I want for ALL deaf children.

 

[shel90]

I agree with you completely, I see Shel and Jillo as pro-Deaf culture. And I am all about children and making decisions based on that particular child and whatever works for that child not what has worked for other children but that child and that child's needs.

We are pro exposing to kids in BOTH worlds...not just the Deaf culture only. If that is so true that the educational environment is all about meeting each child's needs, it is not working cuz all deaf children would not be put in the position of retarding their language development. Nothing to do with Deaf culture but exposing them to Deaf culture would be nice too.

 

[jillio]

My son did not realize his writing samples were going to be graded. Are you trying to tell me that my son cannot read at a 10th grade level because of a couple of posting he wrote. You have never read his formal essays he writes for school, never tested his reading comp, or have spoken to him but you can judge him from a couple of writing samples. This is why we have told him he cannot go on this site because of people like yourself will be judging him, thank you you have just prove my point, I have shown him your comment and he now understands how the Deaf culture feels about oral deaf kids.

Who said anything about grading your son's posts? My statement merely said that I have seem examples of his writing. That statement implies nothing; it is very neutral in both content and context. If you feel the need to get so defensive reagrding such a neutral statement, perhaps it is because you yourself see discrepancies between your son's ability to use written English and the claims you yourself make regarding his use of language.

The fact is that a child's informal use of language is more indicative of their true ability to use a language than is their more formal assessments. There is no opportunity for revision and parental and teacher input regarding the necessary corrections to bring substandard use up to age related standards as is eveident with his formally written essays.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Shel you are right, I do not hold the entire Deaf community responsible for their believes against raising my children orally. I am just very careful about who I expose them too. You are right there very mean people out there and no I cannot protect them against everyone but I will do everything in my power to protect my children against people like Jillo for her to bring up a couple of posts my son made that did not use perfect grammar that was wrong and mean.
I do expose my children to people that are Deaf and just sign but people that are respectful to my children. There are very kind, understanding, and reasonable Deaf people in our area and these are the people that I help my children seek out.