A hate crime....

DaveM said:
I'm a practical libertarian. I believe in free markets. I believe that the more the government tinkers with the marketplace, the less fair it becomes.

I feel that there should be social safety nets. And laws protecting us.

If you want more revenue to come into the government, you need more prosperity.

If you want government jobs that are paid by tax dollars, there needs to be private market growth or you become like Greece.

I also believe in competition in the marketplace. We all benefit.
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Define "us".
 
Jiro said:
I know you can't see it that way and that's ok. I'm not concerned whether or not if you disagree because the legislators and Congress have understood and passed the laws.

I'm fairly certain that your daughter sees it differently from yours so perhaps you might want to have a discussion about this with her on Thanksgiving Day.
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So, the legislators looked at Coke vs Crack and said... "What we need is hate crimes legislation". :lol: Actually it wouldn't surprise me if some did say that. :hmm:
 
jillio said:
Gonna need more details than that. I think I addressed them earlier.

Let me tell you something I was discussing with a friend earlier. She is a doctor of clinical psychology. She has a private practice, teaches at 2 different universities, and does much pro bono work for the indigent. She lives in an upscale neighborhood. Her son came home in tears the other day. Why? A child he had been playing with, and whom he had played with for the better part of 3 years, had called him a "******". She said, "You know, somehow I believed that if I worked hard and achieved, removed myself from what people consider to be the stereotype, that I could get away from this kind of racism and it would not affect my children. I was wrong."

You live those experiences, and then you will be able to address the experience of the African Americans in this nation.
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That's very sad, Jillio.

I try to remove myself from the emotional aspect of poverty and look at the cause.

When you do that, it becomes strikingly clear.
 
Dunno what Davem would say but i think that a Libertarn city would take a market approach to what governments do: ie hire private companies to build roads.. For things like drug addiction and rehab, start up a drug rehabitation center for a fee (of course). Low income folks need not apply if you're of an Objectivist bent. Public unions would not exist any more. The Libertarian premise is that free market solutions are always better and that government should be as lean as possible.


I can see a few things wrong with this approach.
 
DaveM said:
I'm a practical libertarian. I believe in free markets. I believe that the more the government tinkers with the marketplace, the less fair it becomes.

I feel that there should be social safety nets. And laws protecting us.

If you want more revenue to come into the government, you need more prosperity.

If you want government jobs that are paid by tax dollars, there needs to be private market growth or you become like Greece.

I also believe in competition in the marketplace. We all benefit.
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that's not what I asked.

I asked what would a libertarian party do in "this" case... meaning - Philadelphia, Detroit, and Camden problems since you stated that Republicans and Democrats have repeatedly failed.
 
jillio said:
No, that is the fallacy in your logic.
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Oh then since you dispute it you believe. Equal damage, unequal punishment DOES Equal Justice. Interesting. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.
 
TXgolfer said:
Wrong, it would have been vandalism.
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vandalism is a simple and random act of lawlessness.

example - some hoodlums went out to knock out mailboxes, spraypaint walls, break a few windows, and crack some windshields. When they get caught, they'll get a slap on their wrists and pay fines... do some community service. The damage they inflicted is a headache for all because we have to fix it up. Everybody moves on and get on with their lives.

now... when a group of hoodlums went out to specifically target a racial group such as African-American people or Jewish people by vandalizing their establishments such as synagogues, homes, cars, etc. When they get caught, they'll too get a slap on their wrists and pay fines... do some community service. However, the damage they inflicted is a real, terrifying fear because they can simply get off the hook again and most likely not get caught because they knew better what to do. Everybody cannot move on and get on with their lives because they live with fear and must watch their behinds everyday while police officers shrug and say - "just call me when something happens".
 
TXgolfer said:
Oh then since you dispute it you believe. Equal damage, unequal punishment DOES Equal Justice. Interesting. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.
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Hate Crime Law equalizes the justice served.

If you believe it created unequal injustice or double jeopardy.... can you kindly link me to such cases?
 
deafskeptic said:
Dunno what Davem would say but i think that a Libertarn city would take a market approach to what governments do: ie hire private companies to build roads.. For things like drug addiction and rehab, start up a drug rehabitation center for a fee (of course). Low income folks need not apply if you're of an Objectivist bent. Public unions would not exist any more. The Libertarian premise is that free market solutions are always better and that government should be as lean as possible.


I can see a few things wrong with this approach.
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I'm not an objectivist, and I do see a role in government for roads, schools, bridges, and even social security and other safety nets.

Government can never compete with the marketplace because the market will find a way to do it cheaper, better, and more efficient.

Government has no incentive to change the way it does business which is why it bankrupts everything.

Businesses are forced to be competitive because if they're not, their wealth goes away, followed by bankruptcy............Unless of course, government bails them out :lol:
 
DaveM said:
ALL Americans, and even you jillio :lol:
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Well, then hate crime laws are your friends as they serve to create equal justice for ALL Americans.

You seem to be skipping over several posts I have addressed to you that contain salient points. I referred you to one of them twice. Another one is not that far back in the thread. I'd like to think it is because you keep missing them, and not because addressing the points raised is an inconvenience, or makes you uncomfortable.
 
DaveM said:
I'm not an objectivist, and I do see a role in government for roads, schools, bridges, and even social security and other safety nets.

Government can never compete with the marketplace because the market will find a way to do it cheaper, better, and more efficient.

Government has no incentive to change the way it does business which is why it bankrupts everything.

Businesses are forced to be competitive because if they're not, their wealth goes away, followed by bankruptcy............Unless of course, government bails them out :lol:
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I believe that I have said if you are of an Objective bent. Not all libertians are Ayn Rand devotees.
 
jillio said:
Well, then hate crime laws are your friends as they serve to create equal justice for ALL Americans.

You seem to be skipping over several posts I have addressed to you that contain salient points. I referred you to one of them twice. Another one is not that far back in the thread. I'd like to think it is because you keep missing them, and not because addressing the points raised is an inconvenience, or makes you uncomfortable.
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Equal justice means murder is murder. Theft is theft. Violence is violence.

Not one single human being is more valuable than another, regardless of motive.

I will gladly address your points if you point me to them. This thread has become very, very long!
 
TXgolfer said:
Oh so



Got it
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My interpretation of hate crime is a bit different. I am in favor of laws to protect blacks from being intimidated by cross burning men with sheets over their heads. That is a hate crime to me. A swastika painted on the Jewish family's car is more than simple vandalism.
 
deafskeptic said:
I believe that I have said if you are of an Objective bent. Not all libertians are Ayn Rand devotees.
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Oh, sorry deafskeptic. True, I tend to lean towards Rands marketplace solutions.

And I do like her books very much. My favorite is Anthem.
 
DaveM said:
Equal justice means murder is murder. Theft is theft. Violence is violence.

Not one single human being is more valuable than another, regardless of motive.

I will gladly address your points if you point me to them. This thread has become very, very long!
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So then, manslughter and first degree murder should both carry life imprisonment or death penalty. Your logic.

Petty theft and grand theft should carry the same sentence.

Address #455 first, it's the closest.
 
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