Being prepared for discrimination

[Jiro]

I had a discussion with a law professor about this. He gave me a good illustration of how dealing with discrimination on a daily basis can turn a normal nice person into a ranting raving lunatic.

Suppose an employee goes to work and his co-worker approaches him and pokes him with a pen and giggles then walks away. It obviously hurts, but doesn't cause any physical damage. It is maybe even "funny" the first time. But, each day after that, the same thing happens, he gets poked with a pen and the other employee walks away giggling when he sees the obvious discomfort.

The employee asks his co-worker, politely, after the third time, to stop. It continues anyway. Later, the employee tells his co-worker that it isn't funny anymore, to stop it. It continues anyway.

It continues until the employee yells at his co-worker to stop. It continues.

One day, the employee comes to work, is poked with a pen, the employee grabs the pen and stabs his co-worker over and over again with it.

Who is to blame? Should the employee be charged with assault or the co-worker?

Both.

Employee is guilty of murder.
Co-worker is guilty of assault. and hostile work environment.
Employee can simply report the incident to his boss.
If his boss ignored it, he will be slapped with EEOC lawsuit.

Taking that illustration, how many deaf/Deaf or HoH individuals have to deal with a co-worker that constantly taunts them for being deaf/Deaf or HoH?

not me.

I know my illustration is an extreme one, but how many deaf/Deaf or HoH have to supress feelings of anger on a daily basis (when absolutely nothing is done to alleviate the situation?)

Did you really have a conversation with law professor? Your story doesn't make sense. This story is about a nice person turning into a psychotic person killing a man.

A raving ranting lunatic does not usually kill a person.

 

[flip]

Good question Shel. I've wondered about that one, too. For me, beeing honest is perhaps the way to go. They would also find it interesting that deaf people have faced different kind of oppression through the history. I belive it was more self made deaf people in the 19th century, in the golden era, and also early in the 20th century than later in the 20th century. The 21th century, will again be different, and even I don't know what the future holds. And the discrimination experienced by deaf people vary. Some deaf people are successfull in high positions, while others feels totally rejected by the society. I think students perhaps would like to know this, combined with your personal knowledge and wisdom. They will after all, also talk to other deaf adults and get different inputs.

Also, another concern is perhaps that students will wonder why adults aren't honest to them. It's a way of telling students they aren't strong or smart enough to hear the truth? Young people often think they will do it better than all those stupid grown ups anyway, so perhaps nature have provided us with tools to hear the truth when we are young.

Just my two cents.

Good question with no clear answers.

 

[Steinhauer]

Both.

Employee is guilty of murder. Murder?
Co-worker is guilty of assault. and hostile work environment.
Employee can simply report the incident to his boss.
If his boss ignored it, he will be slapped with EEOC lawsuit. Only if the EEOC isn't overwhelmed with other complaints and only if they decide to take the case (and in most cases, they do not)


not me.


Did you really have a conversation with law professor? Yes, I really did.Your story doesn't make sense. This story is about a nice person turning into a psychotic person killing a man. Was the nice person provoked?

A raving ranting lunatic does not usually kill a person. is this rule always true?

I will give you a real life example. A deaf person was living in an apartment complex. One of his neighbors was constantly mocking him. There was no physical contact. The deaf person complained to the staff of the apartment complex and he was told to just ignore his neighbor. The mocking continued.

He eventually complained to the police, the police told him to just ignore his neighbor (as no physical contact had occurred).

One day, the deaf person went to walk out to his car, his neighbor followed him about two paces behind him, the whole time mocking him. The deaf person turned around, decided he had enough and absolutely kicked the guys ass.

Both were arrested. After the police had asked witnesses what had happened (many of the neighbors knew about the situation) the deaf person was released and charges were dropped.

 

[Jiro]

I will give you a real life example. A deaf person was living in an apartment complex. One of his neighbors was constantly mocking him. There was no physical contact. The deaf person complained to the staff of the apartment complex and he was told to just ignore his neighbor. The mocking continued.

He eventually complained to the police, the police told him to just ignore his neighbor (as no physical contact had occurred).

One day, the deaf person went to walk out to his car, his neighbor followed him about two paces behind him, the whole time mocking him. The deaf person turned around, decided he had enough and absolutely kicked the guys ass.

Both were arrested. After the police had asked witnesses what had happened (many of the neighbors knew about the situation) the deaf person was released and charges were dropped.

ok well now that story makes sense.... and I can sympathize with that deaf guy cuz it's how it is in real life. There's not much he can do about it - legally. I'm not surprised about charge being dropped because he already reported this incident to police and staff. The incident was documented and still - nobody can fix it.

But your story about workplace makes absolutely no sense because he can do something about it.

 

[Jiro]

murder?

yes - that's what happens when a person kills other person.

Only if the EEOC isn't overwhelmed with other complaints and only if they decide to take the case (and in most cases, they do not)

doesn't matter. law's a law. I find it disgusting when people take matter into their own hands... especially when people get hurt.

Was the nice person provoked?

provoked or not - it doesn't make it right. He's a murderer. period. If i were a jury, I'd find him guilty - easy.

is this rule always true?

well I said USUALLY.

You said "A raving ranting person"... in other word - just a lunatic babbling about whatever. In many cases - it doesn't turn into murder.

 

[deafskeptic]

Beachgirl, I was taught all those skills you mentioned but also, looking back, I had a false sense of reality...that I wouldnt encounter any barriers because I believed that because I spoke so well, had good grades, had the skills, and etc, I wouldnt be faced with discrimination. When I was, I felt so low and so helpless about what to do because nobody was really helping me deal with discrimination and oppression.

All because I think nobody wanted to face the fact that I was a deaf child regardless of how much I acted "hearing". I think that hurted me more than anything else.


I had no idea on how to self-advocate for myself. At the deaf program, these kids are being taught to self-advocate for themselves which I think is so great. Then again, some people say that by telling them how discriminating the hearing world is...it is giving them the idea that it is not worth trying.

How do we find that balance?

Been there and done that too. I can relate BIG time.

Perhaps the way is to prepare deaf kids to advocate for themselves because even then they already face discrimination even though they're very young and sometimes from their own families too. I also think there should be way to support each other in the face of adversity. Deaf always have to fight for their rights that others take for granted.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Based on my own experiences, I think you should be honest with the students and let them know that the cold hard truth is they will probably have to work harder than the hearing to get a job. And also let them know what their resources are.
I had some really bad moments because of being so unsuccessful at getting a job after getting laid off. It was very very hard on the morale and I felt so angry at my parents for lying to me. They raised me with the belief that if I could speak well, that my skills and grades were good enough to get me employed. Not so! I really really felt gypped and misled. And angry. very very angry.

It was only when I realized that the only boss who would hire me was me that I started up my own business instead of waiting for someone to give me work.

If someone had been honest with me in university then said "but here's what you can do and here's where you can do to get resources" it would have helped me tremendously in being more prepared for the real world.

 

[Jane B.]

I had a discussion with a law professor about this. He gave me a good illustration of how dealing with discrimination on a daily basis can turn a normal nice person into a ranting raving lunatic.

Suppose an employee goes to work and his co-worker approaches him and pokes him with a pen and giggles then walks away. It obviously hurts, but doesn't cause any physical damage. It is maybe even "funny" the first time. But, each day after that, the same thing happens, he gets poked with a pen and the other employee walks away giggling when he sees the obvious discomfort.

The employee asks his co-worker, politely, after the third time, to stop. It continues anyway. Later, the employee tells his co-worker that it isn't funny anymore, to stop it. It continues anyway.

It continues until the employee yells at his co-worker to stop. It continues.

One day, the employee comes to work, is poked with a pen, the employee grabs the pen and stabs his co-worker over and over again with it.

Who is to blame? Should the employee be charged with assault or the co-worker?

Taking that illustration, how many deaf/Deaf or HoH individuals have to deal with a co-worker that constantly taunts them for being deaf/Deaf or HoH?

I know my illustration is an extreme one, but how many deaf/Deaf or HoH have to supress feelings of anger on a daily basis (when absolutely nothing is done to alleviate the situation?)

Not sure how so many have been getting from this to murder! It is a pen that is mentioned. The taunt is probably about using it to write so much. NO mention is made of anyone killed but the charge is assault. Does this change anyone's reaction?

 

[shel90]

So, it seems that programs that support Deaf culture seem to teach deaf children about this issue and how to self-advocate for themselves. Mainstreaming or other deaf programs that have no Deaf culture awareness seem to have the idea that if the deaf students pass classes, seem to be able to socialize with hearing peers, and have good speech skills, they would do fine in the working world.

I feel the same as DeafCaroline and the others. I think a good balance would be to teach deaf high schoolers about ADA laws, how to self-advocate, and strategies on how to handle oppression/discrimination.

Mainstreaming or deaf programs that focus on auditory/medical pointview of deafness should include lessons in this area.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I get Steinhauer's point - the effects of relentless discrimination has an impact on one's psyche and morale.
Years ago, when Oprah first launched her show, she had a guest who was a white guy, who changed the colour of his skin so he would become black. (Anyone read "Black Like Me"?
She asked him what it was like and he said he was horribly depressed. That the daily reality of racism really got to him. Such as store clerks putting his change on the counter instead of into his palm, white people crossing the street when they saw him coming, how people spoke to him and treated him.
At first, he was just aware of how differently he was treated as a black man but after weeks of dealing with racism, he didn't want to leave his house.
As someone else said, deaf kids have already dealt with audism growing up so it's not something new to them.
My mother passed away when I was fifteen but i was glad that she did manage to teach me before she passed away not to depend on anyone else but myself. Not to expect anyone to make my life easier for me. To stand on my own two feet and fight for myself because no one else will.
So, that's what gave me the strength and courage to take the risk to start up my own business after years of failing miserably to find a job. Because of my mother telling me to buck up, ditch the self-pity and be strong.
but it would have been nice to take a class or a workshop in university that prepared me for the reality of the real world after graduation and armed me with knowledge of what I could do to ensure greater chances of getting hired. Where to go, who to talk to, etc etc. Instead, I was flailing like a fish out of water upon graduation because I had no idea the hearing world was THAT audist when it comes to finding employment.

 

[LoveBlue]

I'm not so sure about "no way to prepare." I mean, if you're going to ride a bull, you don't know the exact moment you'll be bucked off, but you know you need to work out, be athletically fit, know how to fall without breaking anything (I learned that in judo!), and so on.

The first thing we were taught in ice skating class was how to fall...and get back up.

 

[Steinhauer]

yes - that's what happens when a person kills other person.


doesn't matter. law's a law. I find it disgusting when people take matter into their own hands... especially when people get hurt.


provoked or not - it doesn't make it right. He's a murderer. period. If i were a jury, I'd find him guilty - easy.


well I said USUALLY.

You said "A raving ranting person"... in other word - just a lunatic babbling about whatever. In many cases - it doesn't turn into murder.

Ok, but how is he a murderer if the other person hasn't died?

 

[Steinhauer]

I get Steinhauer's point - the effects of relentless discrimination has an impact on one's psyche and morale.
Years ago, when Oprah first launched her show, she had a guest who was a white guy, who changed the colour of his skin so he would become black. (Anyone read "Black Like Me"?
She asked him what it was like and he said he was horribly depressed. That the daily reality of racism really got to him. Such as store clerks putting his change on the counter instead of into his palm, white people crossing the street when they saw him coming, how people spoke to him and treated him.
At first, he was just aware of how differently he was treated as a black man but after weeks of dealing with racism, he didn't want to leave his house.
As someone else said, deaf kids have already dealt with audism growing up so it's not something new to them.
My mother passed away when I was fifteen but i was glad that she did manage to teach me before she passed away not to depend on anyone else but myself. Not to expect anyone to make my life easier for me. To stand on my own two feet and fight for myself because no one else will.
So, that's what gave me the strength and courage to take the risk to start up my own business after years of failing miserably to find a job. Because of my mother telling me to buck up, ditch the self-pity and be strong.
but it would have been nice to take a class or a workshop in university that prepared me for the reality of the real world after graduation and armed me with knowledge of what I could do to ensure greater chances of getting hired. Where to go, who to talk to, etc etc. Instead, I was flailing like a fish out of water upon graduation because I had no idea the hearing world was THAT audist when it comes to finding employment.

Thank you, you got the point I was trying to make.

 

[Jiro]

Ok, but how is he a murderer if the other person hasn't died?

oh you didn't say he survived.

When a person was repeatedly stabbed.... that usually result in death but wow - he survived? how lucky

 

[Steinhauer]

"Society knows very well how to oppress a man and has methods more subtle than death." (André Gide, In Memoriam Oscar Wilde)

 

[Bottesini]

"Society knows very well how to oppress a man and has methods more subtle than death." (André Gide, In Memoriam Oscar Wilde)

There is not a dramatic enough weeping smiley for that statement. I understand that too well,

 

[Jane B.]

oh you didn't say he survived.

When a person was repeatedly stabbed.... that usually result in death but wow - he survived? how lucky

I questioned so many assuming that it was murder way back at my post #28. I also pointed out how many missed that he was stabbed with a pen which is what you write with. No mention was made of say a knife! Also, the question was which should be charged with assault no mention was originally made of murder.

 

[Jiro]

I questioned so many assuming that it was murder way back at my post #28. I also pointed out how many missed that he was stabbed with a pen which is what you write with. No mention was made of say a knife! Also, the question was which should be charged with assault no mention was originally made of murder.

You can die from pen stabbing

 

[Bottesini]

You can die from pen stabbing

You bet you can! My father was an unarmed combat instructor in the Army. He taught me lots.

 

[Jane B.]

You bet you can! My father was an unarmed combat instructor in the Army. He taught me lots.

But the original post about it also asked which should be charged with assault no mention was originally made of murder.