US toddler shoots younger brother

[Jiro]

Then you are in favor of greater restriction on the ownership of firearms.

You - You are required to provide a proof of vault PRIOR to owning firearm
Me - You are required to provide a proof of vault WHILE owning firearm or face fines.

That's the major difference. My stance does not restrict the firearm. It does not prevent you from owning firearm. Your stance does.

Same goal, different regulation.

 

[jillio]

You - You are required to provide a proof of vault PRIOR to owning firearm
Me - You are required to provide a proof of vault WHILE owning firearm or face fines.

That's the major difference. My stance does not restrict the firearm. It does not prevent you from owning firearm. Your stance does.

Same goal, different regulation.

Same thing, Jiro. If you don't have a vault, you are in violation of a gun restriction law, because your law mandates you to have one.

 

[Jiro]

No, you did not provide me that information. The information came from the link I provided when you said that there were laws that required that guns be locked up. The laws you refer to do not require firearms to be locked up.

Then you are in favor of greater restriction on the ownership of firearms.

Here's your previous post -

But the law doesn't require them to keep guns locked away. Therefore, there is no law to punish them for not locking them away.

I think the death of a child is the most serious consequence anyone could ever face.

I'm correcting you that there IS the law that punish you for not locking them away - a FELONY charge.

 

[jillio]

Here's your previous post -



I'm correcting you that there IS the law that punish you for not locking them away - a FELONY charge.

Nope. The law does not provide for punishment for "not locking a gun away", because the law does not require that the gun be locked away.

Here it is again:

A state law that punishes an adult whose careless storage of a gun allowed a child to gain access to the gun and commit violence. These "CAP" laws usually do not specify that guns must be kept in locked storage, but they allow adults to be held accountable after a shooting by a child. Eighteen states have passed CAP laws.

Gun Glossary : Americans for Gun Safety (AGS) Foundation

 

[Jiro]

Same thing, Jiro. If you don't have a vault, you are in violation of a gun restriction law, because your law mandates you to have one.

mind you - CAP law is referring to armed households with children and teens. My addition of one-line to CAP law does not cover anyone with no children/teen.

We can spin around all day long on what "gun restriction" means. My interpretation of gun restriction is limiting one's rights to own one. it is my opinion that CAP law is not a form of gun restriction but a safety regulation.

 

[jillio]

mind you - CAP law is referring to armed households with children and teens. My addition of one-line to CAP law does not cover anyone with no children/teen.

We can spin around all day long on what "gun restriction" means. My interpretation of gun restriction is limiting one's rights to own one. it is my opinion that CAP law is not a form of gun restriction but a safety regulation.

No, it isn't. A child that does not reside in the household could gain access to that gun. The adult would still be responsible.

Laws governing the ways in which gun owners can store guns and ammunition are also restrictions. They restrict the ways in which a gun owner can legally store the gun they own.

And, if you are going to enact your restriction just to families with children and teens, you have added even further restriction to a specific population. You might want to check the constitutionality of that one.

 

[Jiro]

No, it isn't. A child that does not reside in the household could gain access to that gun. The adult would still be responsible.

yes - hence the CAP law. I can be charged with this if a baby nephew or neighbor's child gained access to my firearm that resulted in child death.

Laws governing the ways in which gun owners can store guns and ammunition are also restrictions. They restrict the ways in which a gun owner can legally store the gun they own.

And, if you are going to enact your restriction just to families with children and teens, you have added even further restriction to a specific population. You might want to check the constitutionality of that one.

then this CAP law is a Constitutional violation?

 

[jillio]

yes - hence the CAP law. I can be charged with this if a baby nephew or neighbor's child gained access to my firearm that resulted in child death.

Exactly. So it doesn't apply only to households with children and teens as you claimed. CAP laws apply to all households within the state that has enacted the CAP law.
then this CAP law is a Constitutional violation?

Nope. It doesn't restrict the law to only households with children and teens. That is what you said you wanted to do. That is why I advised you to check the constitutionality of that proposal.

 

[Jiro]

Nope. The law does not provide for punishment for "not locking a gun away", because the law does not require that the gun be locked away.

Here it is again:

A state law that punishes an adult whose careless storage of a gun allowed a child to gain access to the gun and commit violence. These "CAP" laws usually do not specify that guns must be kept in locked storage, but they allow adults to be held accountable after a shooting by a child. Eighteen states have passed CAP laws.

Gun Glossary : Americans for Gun Safety (AGS) Foundation

You are confusing yourself. You said there is no law punishing them for not locking it up. I corrected you that the law existed to punish those who did not do which resulted in child death. Plus - the law is DESIGNED to be broad because CAP law will punish those - vault or not.

You assumed that the parents will not be held criminally liable for it but they will be because the law exists in California to punish them.

Police Sgt Greg Terry said police would be looking at whether the weapon had been safely secured.

 

[jillio]

You are confusing yourself. You said there is no law punishing them for not locking it up. I corrected you that the law existed to punish those who did not do which resulted in child death. Plus - the law is DESIGNED to be broad because CAP law will punish those - vault or not.

You assumed that the parents will not be held criminally liable for it but they will be because the law exists in California to punish them.

The law does not punish them for not locking the gun up. The law holds them accountable for the fact that a child got ahold of it and committed violence.

And no, since the CAP provides only for culpability in "careless storage", a minor that breaks into a parent's vault and takes a gun and kills themself or another means that the parent is not guilty of careless storage and therefore cannot be held accountable under the CAP law. And it doesn't take a death of a child to make a parent responsible under CAP laws. A teen that uses a parent's or a grandparent's or a friend of the parents' carelessly stored firearm to commit an armed robbery where no one is injured is still considered to have committed an act of violence, which means the parents or whoever owned the gun would be held responsibile for careless storage under the CAP law. Careless storage does not equal " not locked in a vault".

 

[Jiro]

Exactly. So it doesn't apply only to households with children and teens as you claimed. CAP laws apply to all households within the state that has enacted the CAP law.

right.... and? That's why I showed you this law.

Nope. It doesn't restrict the law to only households with children and teens. That is what you said you wanted to do. That is why I advised you to check the constitutionality of that proposal.

How exactly my one-line added to it is in any way of conflicting with the Constitution? I simply said "You are required to provide a proof of vault WHILE owning firearm or face fines."

 

[C.C.Sinned]

C.C. Sinned has other precautions in place that alert him prior to an invader entering his home, thus allowing him greater time to prepare. That is why I said he was not relying solely on a gun.

made my home as difficult to get into as possible. making an attempt to get will wake the neighborhood. it will either discourage a possible intruder or give me the upper hand.

 

[Jiro]

The law does not punish them for not locking the gun up. The law holds them accountable for the fact that a child got ahold of it and committed violence.

And no, since the CAP provides only for culpability in "careless storage", a minor that breaks into a parent's vault and takes a gun and kills themself or another means that the parent is not guilty of careless storage and therefore cannot be held accountable under the CAP law. And it doesn't take a death of a child to make a parent responsible under CAP laws. A teen that uses a parent's or a grandparent's or a friend of the parents' carelessly stored firearm to commit an armed robbery where no one is injured is still considered to have committed an act of violence, which means the parents or whoever owned the gun would be held responsibile for careless storage under the CAP law. Careless storage does not equal " not locked in a vault".

I see that you're resorting to classic nitpicking method.... that's why I'm beating around the bush with this. I'll leave that to ADers and I'm off to surprise party!

enjoy your day!

 

[jillio]

right.... and? That's why I showed you this law.


How exactly my one-line added to it is in any way of conflicting with the Constitution? I simply said "You are required to provide a proof of vault WHILE owning firearm or face fines."

No, Jiro. You did not show me this law. You claimed there was a law requiring guns to be locked. This is not a law requiring guns to be locked.

You stated that you would apply that law ONLY to households with children and teens. Here is your quote: My addition of one-line to CAP law does not cover anyone with no children/teen.

In an attempt to reduce the amount of child related gun injuries and deaths, many states have passed child access prevention (CAP) laws. These laws hold gun owners responsible if a child gains access to a gun because it is not stored properly. A violation of these laws is usually considered a misdemeanor, but in some states a violation can be considered a felony if an injury occurs or the gun is especially dangerous, such as a machine-gun.

The Effect of Child Access Prevention Laws on Non-Fatal Gun Injuries

And the fact still remains that CAP laws are a regulatory law imposed on gun owners. If you favor CAP, then you favor greater regulation of firearms for gun owners.

 

[C.C.Sinned]

These laws only allow for prosecution after the fact that a child has gotten ahold of a gun and killed or injured self or others. It does not mandate that guns be locked up. Please see my link.

locking the gun up and practicing safety should be common sense. like you said on the texting thread it sad we have to make laws because we are lacking it...

i just don't trust lawmakers to make a law that will be fair and please both parties. since the law makers are so divided between their agendas.

 

[jillio]

locking the gun up and practicing safety should be common sense. like you said on the texting thread it sad we have to make laws because we are lacking it...

i just don't trust lawmakers to make a law that will be fair and please both parties. since the law makers are so divided between their agendas.

Couldn't agree with you more. It should simply be common sense. I was raised around firearms, and in fact learned to shoot by the time I was 6. Guns were always unloaded and locked up in my home, even though we were taught gun safety from the time we were toddlers.

But CAP laws are still designed to regulate the storage of firearms in the cases of people who are not using common sense. My whole point is, Jiro has always argued for less regulation on the basis that regulation does not save lives. However, in the states with CAP laws, which is a regulation imposed on gun owners, accidental gun deaths have gone down. But it still does not require for guns to be locked in a vault as was claimed.

 

[jillio]

made my home as difficult to get into as possible. making an attempt to get will wake the neighborhood. it will either discourage a possible intruder or give me the upper hand.

My point exactly.

 

[C.C.Sinned]

Couldn't agree with you more. It should simply be common sense. I was raised around firearms, and in fact learned to shoot by the time I was 6. Guns were always unloaded and locked up in my home, even though we were taught gun safety from the time we were toddlers.

smart. that was the right way for your folks to do it.

people do lack common sense for safety. seem to have the mentality "it's not going to happen to me". others I think they imitate the unsafe practices that are shown on TV and movies because they are that dense.

But CAP laws are still designed to regulate the storage of firearms in the cases of people who are not using common sense. My whole point is, Jiro has always argued for less regulation on the basis that regulation does not save lives. However, in the states with CAP laws, which is a regulation imposed on gun owners, accidental gun deaths have gone down.

in my opinion less restrictions are not going to help. banning the guns are not going to help.
coming up with safety training and education programs is a start. the most important will be regulations and laws that will not remove the rights of owners, or have hidden agendas to remove rights of law abiding citizens, yet will make less accessible to criminals and the like...

 

[jillio]

smart. that was the right way for your folks to do it.

people do lack common sense for safety. seem to have the mentality "it's not going to happen to me". others I think they imitate the unsafe practices that are shown on TV and movies because they are that dense.


in my opinion less restrictions are not going to help. banning the guns are not going to help.
coming up with safety training and education programs is a start. the most important will be regulations and laws that will not remove the rights of owners, or have hidden agendas to remove rights of law abiding citizens, yet will make less accessible to criminals and the like...

Agreed. Removing regulations or restrictions isn't going to help. It is an issue of accessibility. IMO, if you choose to own a gun, then you also have the responsibility to insure that the gun is not easily accessible to either criminals who might obtain it in a robbery, or to a child in your home.

 

[Babyface]

screw gun resrtrictions, support your NRA doot doot