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Bush-era interrogation memo: No torture without 'severe pain' intent
- Thread starter jillio
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uh.... Vietnam War? in case you don't know what's going on, this is about Afghanistan and Iraq Wars... not Vietnam War. It's a completely different time because soldiers during Vietnam War were drafted and extremely young while it's voluntary to join the military now.
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I'm sorry but you're comparing CIA with Nazi? Let's see - Nazi tortured, interrogated, executed civilians... CIA interrogated terrorists. BIG DIFFERENCE. oh btw - Obama's sanctioning the interrogation and detainment of terrorists (and alleged as well) too. Is Obama now a criminal too? :roll:
TRY AGAIN!
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and have you seen the realities of the war? Sorry to say but you do not deserve to say such comment like above (bold print). It's a cheap cop-out for you to defend your position. It is you who do not understand the price of privilege and rights that enable you to flap your gums about how you like it or not. War isn't pretty but we do our best to adapt to protect ourself from increasingly-ruthless actions by evils. Sounds like you have a idea to deal with terrorists with vital information that can save many American lives. What is it?
so.... not even one link? :roll: I'm glad to know that our soldiers do not need to prove themselves to you. They know they'll get spit on, be called as baby killers, and get disrespected by the likes of you but in their hearts.... they live with comfort knowing that people like you are continuing to enjoy the only freedom in America that are not found in anywhere in the world.
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I only said about "following the order", not draft or voluntary. Please stick what I am talking about.
No matter either draft or voluntary but soldiers´s experiences during Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were horrible because they followed US Government´s order when they know it´s wrong. About Iraq war, the people sign voluntarily at first and then after realize that not what they thought... Until end of their agreement contract, they want to get out but they can´t... they have to sign involuntary on 2nd time and then 3rd time and more years... It traps them... My US soldier friend, who can do ASL told me few weeks ago about Iraq policy. He have serve army for 20 years. He has no problem until Bush policy come... He was not happy with Bush policy. They didn´t know that Bush policy add something more in agreement contract... He decided to get out when his agreement contract ends... He did but they got him to sign... I told him to not worry that Obama is now his boss... He won´t send him back to Iraq again... It mean is his 4th time if US Government send him to Iraq. He also said that Iraq is really not war. I know other US soldiers said the same thing for years. You don´t have their experience but their own experience...
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Huh? You twisted my post. I said that US CIA agents followed their Government´s order as the same as Nazi soldiers/guards followed their Government´s order. I can´t see how different because they follow the order.
I disagree with Obama´s decision for not prosecute US CIA agents because they only follow the order to torture and mistreat innocent terrorists suspects and tried to deport 89 years old former Nazi guard back to Germany. It make no sense because they both FOLLOW their Government´s order.
No matter what but Torture is a crime. To legalize crime is also crime, too.
Are you saying that all are terrorists, not terrorist suspects? If yes, please source...because I only know that they torture and mistreat terrorist SUSPECTS. They were being kipnapped and sold to US authorties to label them as terrorist suspects because they are muslims.
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reiterated? Why should he even use those word?
His argument is "just following orders" that´s why he decided to not prosecute CIA agents... Where´s the justice for the victims who were being torture and mistreat by US authorites under Bush Admin.?
Following orders is a feeble excuse!!!
I am disappointed by President Obama's decision. Again, where's the justice?
It teachs children okay to torture and mistreat the pets or anyone including their siblings because they know that US Government decided to not prosecture US authorites under Bush policy, don´t they?
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CIA torture exemption 'illegal'
US President Barack Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA agents who used torture tactics is a violation of international law, a UN expert says.
The UN special rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, says the US is bound under the UN Convention against Torture to prosecute those who engage in it.
Mr Obama released four "torture memos" outlining harsh interrogation methods sanctioned by the Bush administration.
Mr Nowak has called for an independent review and compensation for victims.
"The United States, like all other states that are part of the UN convention against torture, is committed to conducting criminal investigations of torture and to bringing all persons against whom there is sound evidence to court," Mr Nowak told the Austrian daily Der Standard.
The memos approved techniques including simulated drowning, week-long sleep deprivation, forced nudity, and the use of painful positions.
Torture trials
Mr Obama on Thursday said he would not prosecute under anti-torture laws CIA personnel who relied in good faith on Bush administration legal opinions issued after the 11 September attacks.
BUSH-ERA INTERROGATION
Waterboarding: Aimed at simulating sensation of drowning. Used on alleged 9/11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
Insect: Harmless insect to be placed with suspect in 'confinement box', suspect to be told the insect would sting. Approved for Abu Zubaydah, but not used
Walling: Detainee slammed repeatedly into false wall to create sound and shock
Sleep deprivation: Detainee shackled stading up. Used often, once for 180 hours
'Amnesty' dismays campaigners
Interrogation: Obama's approach
Mr Nowak - who is due to travel to Washington to meet with officials - said that could be a mitigating factor, but does not absolve those involved.
"The fact that you carried out an order doesn't relieve you of your responsibility," he was quoted as saying by AP news agency.
Mr Nowak, an Austrian law professor, said US courts could still try those suspected of carrying out torture, as Mr Obama has not sought an amnesty law for affected CIA personnel.
He called for an investigation by an independent commission before suspects were tried and said it was important that all victims receive compensation.
Human rights groups have criticised President Obama's decision to protect CIA interrogators, saying charges were necessary to prevent future abuses and hold people accountable.
President Obama banned the use of the controversial interrogation techniques in his first week in office.
BBC NEWS | Americas | CIA torture exemption 'illegal'
US President Barack Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA agents who used torture tactics is a violation of international law, a UN expert says.
The UN special rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, says the US is bound under the UN Convention against Torture to prosecute those who engage in it.
Mr Obama released four "torture memos" outlining harsh interrogation methods sanctioned by the Bush administration.
Mr Nowak has called for an independent review and compensation for victims.
"The United States, like all other states that are part of the UN convention against torture, is committed to conducting criminal investigations of torture and to bringing all persons against whom there is sound evidence to court," Mr Nowak told the Austrian daily Der Standard.
The memos approved techniques including simulated drowning, week-long sleep deprivation, forced nudity, and the use of painful positions.
Torture trials
Mr Obama on Thursday said he would not prosecute under anti-torture laws CIA personnel who relied in good faith on Bush administration legal opinions issued after the 11 September attacks.
BUSH-ERA INTERROGATION
Waterboarding: Aimed at simulating sensation of drowning. Used on alleged 9/11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
Insect: Harmless insect to be placed with suspect in 'confinement box', suspect to be told the insect would sting. Approved for Abu Zubaydah, but not used
Walling: Detainee slammed repeatedly into false wall to create sound and shock
Sleep deprivation: Detainee shackled stading up. Used often, once for 180 hours
'Amnesty' dismays campaigners
Interrogation: Obama's approach
Mr Nowak - who is due to travel to Washington to meet with officials - said that could be a mitigating factor, but does not absolve those involved.
"The fact that you carried out an order doesn't relieve you of your responsibility," he was quoted as saying by AP news agency.
Mr Nowak, an Austrian law professor, said US courts could still try those suspected of carrying out torture, as Mr Obama has not sought an amnesty law for affected CIA personnel.
He called for an investigation by an independent commission before suspects were tried and said it was important that all victims receive compensation.
Human rights groups have criticised President Obama's decision to protect CIA interrogators, saying charges were necessary to prevent future abuses and hold people accountable.
President Obama banned the use of the controversial interrogation techniques in his first week in office.
BBC NEWS | Americas | CIA torture exemption 'illegal'
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and you continue to be confused. That's why you keep saying that I twisted your posts. It is you who are confused and you do not understand this issue quite clearly. The ultimate difference between CIA and Nazi is that Nazi aka Gestapo can illegally detain ANYBODY and torture them and execute them. Gestapo thinks they're above the law.
1. CIA has oversight committee and they are not above the law nor think they're above the law.
2. CIA does not execute people.
3. CIA interrogated terrorists and terrorist suspects
4. CIA is not allowed to detain or interrogate civilians unless they're declared as terrorist by U.S. President (and the oversight committee) via Patriot Acts
Please understand the precise difference. Educate yourself on this issue. Stop watching movies about CIA stuff. It's fiction. fake. Oliver Stone's movie is fake - no matter if it's based on true story. It's still fake, overly-dramatized for theatrical purpose.
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I'm sorry but you're comparing apple and orange so it's not my fault for not being able to stick to what you're talking about. Your post does not makes any sense at all.
I'm sorry but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH Bush Policy or RELATED. The contract that they VOLUNTARILY signed clearly stated the possible use of STOP-LOSS ORDER by U.S. President. if you don't like it... simple - don't join the military. Pretty simple! Nobody forced them to sign up. it's their responsibility to read the contract and to think CAREFULLY if they're willing to accept ALL CONSEQUENCES. The contract is not very hard to read.
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Liebling, there's no law that define for torture against terrorist but our US constitution is applied to all innocent citizens and foreigners (in US only) but terrorist isn't included, even if any people who trying to help terrorist would considered as terrorist, no matters and Geneva Convention don't cover on terrorist, either and some people whoever help terrorist are lie to judge then sent back to middle and became terrorist again.
Obama made decision, that's his choice but Bush had helped Obama alot for transition into smooth, foreign judge has no power to prosecute Bush or CIA agent but UN could be possibly but won't be easier due long trial and not worth for Bush to be prosecuted, you have get deal with it about past and some other countries have terrible torture, such as China, Sudan and Russia.
Jiro is right about how voluntary works in US military, if you chose then too late and you should read their contract and agreement with them.
Obama made decision, that's his choice but Bush had helped Obama alot for transition into smooth, foreign judge has no power to prosecute Bush or CIA agent but UN could be possibly but won't be easier due long trial and not worth for Bush to be prosecuted, you have get deal with it about past and some other countries have terrible torture, such as China, Sudan and Russia.
Jiro is right about how voluntary works in US military, if you chose then too late and you should read their contract and agreement with them.
jillio
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You really need to get your head out of the sand. Obama is sactioning interrogation, not the interrogation (e.g. torture) techniques used under the Bush administration. His plans to close Gitmo is evidence that he disproves of the things that occurred there. He is also assuring due process to the accused. It is a completely different situation. And you might want to check the CIA files for some of the things they have done to civilians.
jillio
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Admitting that wrong was done, but exempting those responsible as being under duress and simply following orders is nothing new in the history of this country. The fact is, Obama has admitted that wrong was done, is doing what is necessary to insure that it does not happen under his adminsitration, and has shown mercy to those that were following the orders of the previous administration. Three things the Bush administration failed to do. That is progress.
jillio
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jillio
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I don't think "the contract" says anything about being ordered to torture and kill civilians. Yet it happens.
jillio
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- CIA interrogators used waterboarding at least 266 times on two top al Qaeda suspects, according to a Bush-era Justice Department memo released by the Obama administration.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, seen in a December sketch, was waterboarded 183 times in a month, a memo says.
The controversial technique that simulates drowning -- and which President Obama calls torture -- was used at least 83 times in August 2002 on suspected al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, according to the memo.
Interrogators also waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times in March 2003. Mohammed is believed to be the mastermind behind the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States.
Obama released the memo Thursday, saying that "exceptional circumstances surround these memos and require their release." Watch other tactics outlined in memos »
The memo, dated May 30, 2005, was from then-Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John Rizzo, who was acting general counsel for the CIA.
It paints a different picture from the one described by former CIA officer John Kiriakou. In a December 2007 interview with CNN, Kiriakou said Zubaydah had been waterboarded for "about 30 seconds, 35 seconds" and agreed to cooperate with interrogators the following day.
In an interview on "Fox News Sunday," Michael Hayden, who directed the CIA from 2006 to 2009, was asked about the number of times Mohammed was waterboarded.
Hayden denounced the release of the memos and did not comment on the number, saying it was his understanding that the frequency of waterboarding was among the operational details that had not been declassified.
The 2005 memo refers to a letter that had contained the numbers as well. Part of the reference to the letter was redacted in the released memo.
Waterboarding is among the interrogation tactics that Obama has prohibited through an executive order.
The CIA also has admitted waterboarding Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the first person charged in the United States for the 2000 attack on the USS Cole in Yemen that killed 17 U.S. sailors.
Obama said last week he felt comfortable releasing the classified memos because the Bush administration acknowledged using some of the practices associated with the memos, and the interrogation techniques were widely reported and have since been banned.
"Withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time," Obama said in a statement. "This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States."
The president applauded the work of the U.S. intelligence community and said no one who "carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice" would be prosecuted.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/20/cia.waterboarding/index.html
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, seen in a December sketch, was waterboarded 183 times in a month, a memo says.
The controversial technique that simulates drowning -- and which President Obama calls torture -- was used at least 83 times in August 2002 on suspected al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, according to the memo.
Interrogators also waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times in March 2003. Mohammed is believed to be the mastermind behind the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States.
Obama released the memo Thursday, saying that "exceptional circumstances surround these memos and require their release." Watch other tactics outlined in memos »
The memo, dated May 30, 2005, was from then-Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John Rizzo, who was acting general counsel for the CIA.
It paints a different picture from the one described by former CIA officer John Kiriakou. In a December 2007 interview with CNN, Kiriakou said Zubaydah had been waterboarded for "about 30 seconds, 35 seconds" and agreed to cooperate with interrogators the following day.
In an interview on "Fox News Sunday," Michael Hayden, who directed the CIA from 2006 to 2009, was asked about the number of times Mohammed was waterboarded.
Hayden denounced the release of the memos and did not comment on the number, saying it was his understanding that the frequency of waterboarding was among the operational details that had not been declassified.
The 2005 memo refers to a letter that had contained the numbers as well. Part of the reference to the letter was redacted in the released memo.
Waterboarding is among the interrogation tactics that Obama has prohibited through an executive order.
The CIA also has admitted waterboarding Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the first person charged in the United States for the 2000 attack on the USS Cole in Yemen that killed 17 U.S. sailors.
Obama said last week he felt comfortable releasing the classified memos because the Bush administration acknowledged using some of the practices associated with the memos, and the interrogation techniques were widely reported and have since been banned.
"Withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time," Obama said in a statement. "This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States."
The president applauded the work of the U.S. intelligence community and said no one who "carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice" would be prosecuted.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/20/cia.waterboarding/index.html
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nice wording but unfortunately his action and statements do not back your statement.
Another Gitmo Grows in Afghanistan
Why the Gitmo policies may not change
and you might want to extend a courtesy to link the source that backs your statement otherwise it's nothing but a baseless allegation.
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and they get prosecuted. Are you sure you're not confusing the soldiers with somebody else? Enlistment contract is not the same contract signed by CIA or Defense Contractors.
jillio
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