Bush-era interrogation memo: No torture without 'severe pain' intent

[Jiro]

According to the memos, they weren't more humane. That is the whole point. We reduced ourselves to the level of the terrorists. Quite frankly,it makes us more vunerable.

and that's why Bush Administration revised it and clarified the policy. and Obama's using it.

 

[Jiro]

I understand keeping some information secret. However, is there information you know about that gives you the idea that it is working? It can't be just that there has been no terrorist attack since 9/11, surely there were gaps before. Is it because Obama hasn't changed any policy (or at least didn't PUBLICLY change the policy) since he came in, giving the illusion that "Wow Bush was right"?

lol yep. You knew what I was gonna say We both are already seeing the result of Bush Administration's greatly-improved National Security. I'll remind you - a speedy response to US Airways 1549 and a tighter border security. of course - it's work in progress. I'm sure that Obama is further improving it.

 

[jillio]

and what tactics do they use? IEDs? beheading? raping and threatening to kill families for cooperating with enemies?

Possibly. We haven't seen all the memos. But when you dehumanize your charges, anything is possible. The tactics outlined in the OP are all intended to dehumanize and create fear and dependence.

 

[Jiro]

Possibly. We haven't seen all the memos.

it was frequently published in news. remember the beheading videos? Do we do same? nope........

But when you dehumanize your charges, anything is possible. The tactics outlined in the OP are all intended to dehumanize and create fear and dependence.

it's still a more humane way..... compared to what terrorists and other countries use.

 

[jillio]

it was frequently published in news. remember the beheading videos? Do we do same? nope........


it's still a more humane way..... compared to what terrorists and other countries use.

You might want to take a lesson from the Mei Lai massacre. Dehumanization always has disastrous results. Both for the dehumanized and the dehumanizer. The U.S. cannot claim moral superiority if they engage in tactics with terrorist intent.

 

[Jiro]

You might want to take a lesson from the Mei Lai massacre. Dehumanization always has disastrous results. Both for the dehumanized and the dehumanizer. The U.S. cannot claim moral superiority if they engage in tactics with terrorist intent.

what the?? I just spilled my coffee. Are you telling me that we execute people in the middle of street? massacre people at some graveyards just because they're whatever?

The U.S. in Afghanistan: The Longest War

The soldiers crept into the village of Loi Kolay under the light of a crescent moon, slipping into defensive positions around a darkened house, gun sights trained on the rocky cliffs above. Four sharp knocks on the wooden door echoed through the silent valley. "Niazamuddin, we know you are in there!" the interpreter shouted. After a few tense moments, the tribal elder appeared. For months the village leaders of the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan's northeastern province of Kunar had complained about the U.S. and Afghan armies' searching of houses, a practice that went against tribal custom. Niazamuddin had suggested that he go along on the next search to help soften the impact. The U.S. soldiers were about to take him up on his offer.
......
The operation's leader, 1st Lieut. Glenn Burkey, exploded with frustration. U.S. forces had taken gunfire from the village several times, and previous house searches had turned up weapons, explosives and even a Taliban flag. Yet repeated raids risked alienating residents further. Burkey needed the elder's help. "You told us we had to do things differently," he said to Niazamuddin. "We are trying. I want the U.S. and Afghan forces to work together with the villagers to make this place safe." Niazamuddin was silent. "You remember Qadir?" he finally asked, naming his predecessor. "I don't know if he helped the U.S. or not, but the Taliban thought he did. They shot him coming out of the mosque." Then they beheaded his corpse in the public square.

Sorry but that's not the type of dehumanization we're using. TRY AGAIN!

 

[jillio]

what the?? I just spilled my coffee. Are you telling me that we execute people in the middle of street? massacre people at some graveyards just because they're whatever?

The U.S. in Afghanistan: The Longest War


Sorry but that's not the type of dehumanization we're using. TRY AGAIN!

I'm telling you that dehumanization results in disastrous results. And yes, we do execute people in the middle of the street. Checked the number of civilian deaths attributed to this war yet? What about the number of middle eastern looking civilians living in this country that were detained or attacked simply due to their ethnicity? You cannot speak out against such acts by other countries, and then turn around and justify the same just because it happens under the U.S. flag. At least, you can't do it and retain any credibility.

 

[Byrdie714]

Just remember that the news just broke---I'm sure that the Obama administration is going to make some changes to the policy.

 

[ASLGAL]

Oh dear, it is difficult to know where to start...
definitions of what is torture and so on, what the Geneva Conventions are and what they actually say, how terrorists are not entitled to due process and public defenders and so on....

I know. You are all so right and bad JIRO and big bad Bush(apparently the only President believed to have permitted interrogation of terrorists) shame on you!

>barf<


Actually, the lack of understanding is testement to the fact that Americans are isolated from the realities of terrorism. The WTC was nothing compared with what other people in the world live on a daily basis. I doubt they would be having discussions about being kinder and how horrible to slap a terrorist who beheaded their loved ones.
Heck, Americans are so ADHD that we losat interest and shock in what happened before the year anniversary mark. Sad commentary.

We are sheltered and soft in this country.

 

[November Gypsy]

Jiro isn't bad. He's just explaining how it is from his point of veiw, which is just as valid as anyone else. Still, I don't think the eye for an eye thing works. It's strange because most of us try to teach our children that hitting back won't solve anything, and yet, we take on these less then honorable methods to deal with people who have wronged us. Yes, they have wronged us. Deeply. But what are we teaching people of that country? We are teaching them that, no matter what we say about how we value life and respect its rights, we will act out if anyone dares to cross us. That's what disturbs me. I am neither a Bush nor Obama hater. They both have their good points and points I don't agree with....but I wish we would learn that treating any human in a less then human way is not going to end well. It just isn't. I am sad for this country, very sad indeed.

 

[ASLGAL]

Jiro isn't bad.

I was joking November Gypsy. Sorry for the confusion.

I see your points about teaching our children not to immediately use any form of violence.

I wish that dealing with terrorists could be equated with teaching our kids not to hit, but sadly it cannot.
Terrorists truly torture (cut off heads, rape, and so on) and have no standards that tell them this is wrong as they do it blindly for "allah" or whichever entity they worship. They feel anything they do is justified to obtain their goals of domination, subjegation, annihilation.

It is abhorant to us and we cannot fully understand the extent to which they will go to meet their goals. We may not like the fact that we have to use some tactics that are distasteful to us as Americans but we must keep in mind the reality. One cannot have a meaningful dialogue with terrorists.

Heck, Americans are so ADHD that we lost interest and shock in what happened before the year anniversary mark. Sad commentary.

We are sheltered and soft in this country.

I believe this to be true.

 

[jillio]

Jiro isn't bad. He's just explaining how it is from his point of veiw, which is just as valid as anyone else. Still, I don't think the eye for an eye thing works. It's strange because most of us try to teach our children that hitting back won't solve anything, and yet, we take on these less then honorable methods to deal with people who have wronged us. Yes, they have wronged us. Deeply. But what are we teaching people of that country? We are teaching them that, no matter what we say about how we value life and respect its rights, we will act out if anyone dares to cross us. That's what disturbs me. I am neither a Bush nor Obama hater. They both have their good points and points I don't agree with....but I wish we would learn that treating any human in a less then human way is not going to end well. It just isn't. I am sad for this country, very sad indeed.

To quote Martin Luther King, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."

 

[jillio]

I was joking November Gypsy. Sorry for the confusion.

I see your points about teaching our children not to immediately use any form of violence.

I wish that dealing with terrorists could be equated with teaching our kids not to hit, but sadly it cannot.
Terrorists truly torture (cut off heads, rape, and so on) and have no standards that tell them this is wrong as they do it blindly for "allah" or whichever entity they worship. They feel anything they do is justified to obtain their goals of domination, subjegation, annihilation.
It is abhorant to us and we cannot fully understand the extent to which they will go to meet their goals. We may not like the fact that we have to use some tactics that are distasteful to us as Americans but we must keep in mind the reality. One cannot have a meaningful dialogue with terrorists.


I believe this to be true.

Kind of like when Nixon was quoted as saying, "When the President does it, it isn't illegal".

 

[Jiro]

I'm telling you that dehumanization results in disastrous results. And yes, we do execute people in the middle of the street. Checked the number of civilian deaths attributed to this war yet?

1. if they did that - they were prosecuted
2. please do not confuse collateral damage with execution
3. It was mostly contractors, not soldiers
4. A very very serious allegation you've made - do you have a proof?

What about the number of middle eastern looking civilians living in this country that were detained or attacked simply due to their ethnicity? You cannot speak out against such acts by other countries, and then turn around and justify the same just because it happens under the U.S. flag. At least, you can't do it and retain any credibility.

In case you didn't remember - I spoke out against this kind of thing many many times. It's a Red Scare all over again.

 

[jillio]

1. if they did that - they were prosecuted2. please do not confuse collateral damage with execution
3. It was mostly contractors, not soldiers
4. A very very serious allegation you've made - do you have a proof?



In case you didn't remember - I spoke out against this kind of thing many many times. It's a Red Scare all over again.

You are kidding, right?

Proof? Read the accounts.

 

[Jiro]

You are kidding, right?

I'm not sure what's so funny. It's a very serious allegation you've made that was basically a spit in the face to those who wear uniforms with honor especially your family members when you have no proof. You should know the reality of life. Majority of rape/murder cases are cold cases, right? Same thing but we do our best to prosecute those who executed civilians.

Again - proof? so all you did was concluded that we execute people in middle of street based on statistic?

disturbing..... you're lucky to get to flap your gums like that in America.... at the expense of those lives whose lives were lost to fight to preserve your free speech.

Proof? Read the accounts.

.................? link it.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I stopped reading few pages and can´t read further...

Torture is a crime. To legalize crime is also crime, too because the terrorist suspects haven´t been tried (and convicted) of anything but victim of Bush admin. policy.

Didn't they prosecuted US soldiers, who followed orders to torture and mistreat Iraqis in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo? Why can´t they do the same to those CIA agents then?

Oh yes, how about 89 years old former Nazi guard, the US Government tried to deport him to Germany few days ago? He did the same thing as CIA agents who followed orders. It look like that US Government defend Americans and do something to the leaders and people from other countries... It make me feel sick.

No wonder why many US deserters refuse to follow the order after learn that´s not what they thought after their first voluntarily sign the contract because they realize that Bush admin. did wrong.

It look like that the people going to jail for break the law, not US Government? If they are not prosecuted, then no one should be prosecuted.

What a horrible joke and hypocrites.

 

[jillio]

I'm not sure what's so funny. It's a very serious allegation you've made that was basically a spit in the face to those who wear uniforms with honor especially your family members when you have no proof. You should know the reality of life. Majority of rape/murder cases are cold cases, right? Same thing but we do our best to prosecute those who executed civilians.

Again - proof? so all you did was concluded that we execute people in middle of street based on statistic?

disturbing..... you're lucky to get to flap your gums like that in America.... at the expense of those lives whose lives were lost to fight to preserve your free speech.


.................? link it.

I laughed because your post was so utterly absurd.

And it is no disrespect to my family members or anyone else. Unlike you, they have served in the military, were in front line battle, and saw the realities of war. You, on the other hand, are adhering to some fairy tale ideal of how nobel it all is.

I don't need to link it. Open a newspaper.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

well apparently it did work. no terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11.... What separated us from other countries' interrogation tactics is that ours is much more humane. but of course.... the interrogation methods are classified. Some were released because the public was angry and hungry for info.

Huh? Don´t you remember that over 4,000 US soldiers and hundreds of thousands of iraqis innocents killed under Bush Admin. ? Why attack Iraq for when Iraq was not responsible for 11/9 attack? All what the muslims from different countries were being sold to US authorities as terrorist suspects...

A lot of muslims and Arabs are victims of US political because of that 9\11 attack.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

1. if they did that - they were prosecuted
2. please do not confuse collateral damage with execution
3. It was mostly contractors, not soldiers
4. A very very serious allegation you've made - do you have a proof?



In case you didn't remember - I spoke out against this kind of thing many many times. It's a Red Scare all over again.

Oh my dear... I´m totally speechless... You really have no idea what you are saying...ö

No, it´s not just contractors but soldiers as well because they doing their duty to follow the US Government´s order.

I would recommend you to watch "Heaven and Earth" movie (Oliver Stone´s film). It´s true story - France and US armies in Vietnam war... It´s really horrible that a husband was a soilder and confessed his crime because he doing his duty what they told him to do, to his wife... He suffered trauma... and sucidee commit.

And also Platoon as well

I understood why many US deresters refused to follow the order when they knew what US Government did wrong. They signed the agreement contract because they thought they serve their country but it´s not what they thought but war crime....



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