Should We Use Experimental Drugs on Prisoners?

[Jiro]

Rats really cannot burp. They can fart though. What if the experiment medicine's side effect is burping?

again... in case you didn't know - after the drug passed extensive animal testing and FDA approval - it now can be used on human testing.

They would scrape that medicine and what if that medicine is the right one to save humans' lives???

and we have obtained unexpected result from animal/human testing for decades. nothing new. Viagra is the example.

 

[Buffalo]

again... in case you didn't know - after the drug passed extensive animal testing and FDA approval - it now can be used on human testing.


and we have obtained unexpected result from animal/human testing for decades. nothing new.

Read this:

Such a high error rate begs the question: How many possibly life-saving therapies have clinicians never investigated because of toxicities in other animal species? Penicillin, which was originally discovered in 1929, wasn’t used until 1939 because of its ineffectiveness in curing infected rabbits. If it had been “safety” tested in cats, guinea pigs, or hamsters, it would have been abandoned as toxic.

PCRM >> Research >> Animal Experimentation Issues >> Dangerous Medicine: Examples of Animal-Based “Safety” Tests Gone Wrong

 

[Jiro]

Read this:
PCRM >> Research >> Animal Experimentation Issues >> Dangerous Medicine: Examples of Animal-Based “Safety” Tests Gone Wrong

 

[Buffalo]

again... in case you didn't know - after the drug passed extensive animal testing and FDA approval - it now can be used on human testing.


and we have obtained unexpected result from animal/human testing for decades. nothing new. Viagra is the example.

In "Sacred cows and golden geese" By Jean Swingle Greek - it says "Penicillin was delayed by animal testing and almost derailed altogether. Alexander Fleming saw penicillin kill bacteria in petri dishes in 1929 and tested it on rabbits. It did not work. We now knpw that rabbits excrete penicillin in their urine; it is eliminated before it can be effective. Based on rabbit work, Fleming put the drug aside, believing it to be useless as a systemic medication. He later had a very sick patient and since he had nothing else to try, administered the penicillin. The rest is history."

Penicillin kills cats and guinea pigs. If Fleming tested it on cats and/or guinea pigs first, he would considered penicillin to be toxic. I am glad he had tested it on a human.

 

[naisho]

There are always some side effects for certain drugs, it's a risk the research and the patients have to take.

The whole purpose of creating a perfect drug is trial and error, until they have perfected the medicine!

Take an example from a common need: insulin.
It all started with cows. Then they found out pigs were a better substitute, collecting it from their livers to be used in humans. The success rate was good but there were some side effects such as allergy or rejection of the cells.

Then a scientist made a discovery (I forgot his name). He modified he bacteria from their normal function so they made insulin cells. Bacteria and humans share the same exact DNA. Win-win.
From that point on, it became the major breakthrough for the success of insulin intake for those who need it.

It had to start somewhere to get to where it is.

 

[Buffalo]

lazy!

 

[Cheri]

Interesting discussion....

From my point of view, Animals research has some flaws because animals are so different from humans. I've read stories of people who died from drugs that was safe in animals. So, I don't know, I'm still in the middle.

 

[Buffalo]

Interesting discussion....

From my point of view, Animals research has some flaws because animals are so different from humans. I've read stories of people who died from drugs that was safe in animals. So, I don't know, I'm still in the middle.

Thalidomide is not the only one that was withdrawn. If you look at this link: PCRM >> Research >> Animal Experimentation Issues >> Dangerous Medicine: Examples of Animal-Based “Safety” Tests Gone Wrong and it lists different medicines that was withdrawn.

Also in the Amazon.com page on "Sacred Cows and Golden Geese: The Human Cost of Experiments on Animals" by C. Ray Greek and Jean Swingle Greek -the authors said that every year roughly 100,000 Americans die of adverse reactions to drugs that proved, in animals, to be perfectly safe. That is alot.

 

[Hear Again]

Thalidomide is not the only one that was withdrawn.

Again, this is not true. The FDA approved Thalidomide in 1998 for the condition I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Hear Again]

It was taken off the shelf back then. Maybe it is being used now as long as the female patient knows not to get pregnant.

I know Thalidomide was prohibited in 1962, but it was approved again by the FDA in 1998.

 

[Jiro]

lazy!

not lazy. just a realist. the irony thing is ya'all still benefit from it.

 

[rockin'robin]

Thalidomide is not the only one that was withdrawn. If you look at this link: PCRM >> Research >> Animal Experimentation Issues >> Dangerous Medicine: Examples of Animal-Based “Safety” Tests Gone Wrong and it lists different medicines that was withdrawn.

Also in the Amazon.com page on "Sacred Cows and Golden Geese: The Human Cost of Experiments on Animals" by C. Ray Greek and Jean Swingle Greek -the authors said that every year roughly 100,000 Americans die of adverse reactions to drugs that proved, in animals, to be perfectly safe. That is alot.

I agree with you.

As for the drug Thalidomide....I recall very vividly this girl that I went to school with (back in 1964). Seems her mother took this drug, I'm not sure if it was for "morning sickness" or what....and the girl was born with so many birth defects. Multiple fingers and toes!....She is still alive today! But has always been in a wheel chair, along with artificial legs. She graduated with my class. And there were thousands & thousands more people with birth defects from this drug!

And there are drugs for depression....Doctors tried "so many" on me and none of them worked. One drug I took, caused me to have horrific nightmares, night sweats, and the like. I stopped taking it! And dealt and still do, deal with bouts of depression. I'm done with depression drugs! Some people say I'm making it (life in general) "harder" on myself! But I feel differently!. Everyone gets sad and down and out at times! There is no miracle drug to make us "feel good/happy" all the time. Unless it's an illegal drug.

 

[Hear Again]

And there are drugs for depression....Doctors tried "so many" on me and none of them worked.

It sounds like you had med-resisistant depression. Not all meds for depression are bad. People tolerate them differently and what works for one may not work for another. If it were not for antipsychotics and mood stabilizers, I'd hear voices 24/7 and have constant mood swings. That's another reason why I believe in animal testing. If it were not for animals, I would not be able to enjoy the stability I now have thanks to the meds I take.

 

[jillio]

That isn't true. In 1998 the FDA approved the use of Thalidomide for the treatment of lesions associated with Erythema Nodosum Leprosum (ENL), so it is still being used here in the U.S.

It wasn't deaths that caused the stir over Thalidomide, either. It was severe birth defects when taken by pregnant women.

 

[jillio]

It sounds like you had med-resisistant depression. Not all meds for depression are bad. People tolerate them differently and what works for one may not work for another. If it were not for antipsychotics and mood stabilizers, I'd hear voices 24/7 and have constant mood swings. That's another reason why I believe in animal testing. If it were not for animals, I would not be able to enjoy the stability I now have thanks to the meds I take.

Excellent points. And I would like to add that not only is it often necessary to try several different anti-depressants so type and dose can be adjusted specifically for that individual (it's not like taking an aspirin where one dose works the same for everyone), but therapy is a critical component regarding efficacy of treatment. It has been proven again and again that psycho-therapy plus pharmaco-therapy is the most effective way to treat clinical depression. When the depression is situational, and not clinical, counseling is usually just as effective as drugs plus therapy. If one is not receiving both meds and therapy for clinical depression, they are not doing everything they can to control their depression. Too many people expect that they will take an anti-depressant and their mood will suddenly improve. That is not the way it works. With the depression comes years worth of behaviors and attitudes that need to be changed.

 

[jillio]

rockin'robin made it quite clear it is on volunteering basis. I am with rockin'robin on this. I don't want the prisoner to leave the prison so it would be best if there is a medical room in the prison. No favors/money for the prisoners just like those volunteers outside the prison. It would be perfect for a prisoner to make an amend - if one took a life so one can save many lives to make up for it.

I don't like animal research because their bodies are different than humans. Like there is west nile virus vaccine for equines (horses, donkeys, zebras, etc) but none for the humans. Rats cannot burp (the Rat Report) and what if the medicine can save humans from deadly disease causes burping. We miss out the medicine that can save humans. And you hear about certain medicine being withdrawed due to too many human deaths (Thalidomide
for an example).

I am glad that this is changing with better technology in medical research. More on this: PCRM >> Research: Alternatives to Animal Experimentation, Dissection, Research, Non-animal methods in Medical Education.

Since people are not voluntarily in jail, you run into ethical questions when you say they could volunteer to participate in experiments. The very fact that would qualify them to participate is the fact that they are unvoluntarily incarcerated. That is the very argument that has been used in the past, and it has always been decided that someone who is involuntarily incarcerated cannot give voluntary consent.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

It sounds like you had med-resisistant depression. Not all meds for depression are bad. People tolerate them differently and what works for one may not work for another. If it were not for antipsychotics and mood stabilizers, I'd hear voices 24/7 and have constant mood swings. That's another reason why I believe in animal testing. If it were not for animals, I would not be able to enjoy the stability I now have thanks to the meds I take.

Excellent points. And I would like to add that not only is it often necessary to try several different anti-depressants so type and dose can be adjusted specifically for that individual (it's not like taking an aspirin where one dose works the same for everyone), but therapy is a critical component regarding efficacy of treatment. It has been proven again and again that psycho-therapy plus pharmaco-therapy is the most effective way to treat clinical depression. When the depression is situational, and not clinical, counseling is usually just as effective as drugs plus therapy. If one is not receiving both meds and therapy for clinical depression, they are not doing everything they can to control their depression. Too many people expect that they will take an anti-depressant and their mood will suddenly improve. That is not the way it works. With the depression comes years worth of behaviors and attitudes that need to be changed.

You both are spot on!

I have treatment resistent depression and it took me two years to find a drug regimen that lifted me out of depression completely. I've had my drug cocktail switched around quite a bit but finally found a regimen that not only lessens my depression, but finally, lifted it.

If it weren't for animal experimentation, I would not be able to function, nor would I be alive. Needless to say, I support it.

I am, however, not supportive of experimenting on prisoners as they cannot give informed consent.

 

[Hear Again]

I have treatment resistent depression and it took me two years to find a drug regimen that lifted me out of depression completely. I've had my drug cocktail switched around quite a bit but finally found a regimen that not only lessens my depression, but finally, lifted it.

It took me 1.5 years to find an appropriate med combo, but this was primarily due to an inattentive psychiatrist who refused to give me proper treatment. I'm now working with a wonderful psychiatrist who takes my treatment seriously and addresses my symptoms when they occur. I think that, along with weekly therapy, has alot to do with my current stability.

 

[Hear Again]

Too many people expect that they will take an anti-depressant and their mood will suddenly improve. That is not the way it works. With the depression comes years worth of behaviors and attitudes that need to be changed.

That point can't be stressed enough.

I've been in therapy and on meds since 1991. Over the years, I've learned a great deal about myself not to mention the fact that T has helped save my life more than once.

As Jillio said, research has proven time and time again that the best treatment protocol for any form of mental illness are a combination of meds and therapy.

 

[Hear Again]

In regards to animal testing, I have another example of why I support it. When I was IP in 2006 for my first manic/psychotic episode, I heard voices, was delusional and extremely paranoid. I heard up to 20 different voices and did not have any awareness of person, time or place. If I had not been given high doses of mood stabilizers and antipsychotics, I would have continued in this state indefinitely which could have resulted in me hurting myself or others given my inability to reason and think clearly.