Sound and Fury

[shel90]

Thanks Shel! How are you today?

alright..doing spring cleaning and checking AD to take a break! LOL!

U?

I love many of your posts in this thread. U really have a good understanding of both sides.

 

[faire_jour]

Rick,

As far as even ground, I meant as far as evening the playing field between hearing and deaf children and what the future opportunities available to them as adults.

As we established before, I agree that it is ultimately the responsibility of the parents to make the right decision for their child's personal needs. You are also correct in that the majority of US residents speak English, but I have also seen sources that it could be actually as low as 82%. However, I still maintain that there needs to be greater acknowledgment that ASL is like any language (besides English) and that even though the syntax, grammar, etc. may be different, it doesn't mean that those who use ASL, especially as it is reflected in written form, are in anyway lacking in intelligence and should be offered the same opportunities as their hearing counterparts.

But be realistic, the vast majority of those are Spanish speaker NOT ASL users.

"Although the precise number of ASL users is difficult to determine, ASL is the predominant language — in other words, the language used most frequently for face-to-face communication, learned either as a first or second language of an estimated 100,000 to 500,000 Americans (Padden, 1987)"

That would mean the percentage would be approximately .03% to .16% of the 300,000,000 people in the US.

 

[dorothy5664]

alright..doing spring cleaning and checking AD to take a break! LOL!

U?

I love many of your posts in this thread. U really have a good understanding of both sides.

Cleaning, laundry, and went out grocery shopping. Now have chicken breast simmering for soup and just relaxing.

 

[flip]

I have seen the use of CI close doors, instead of opening them. For example a CI implanted child refused to use sign language, even if the parents tried to make the child bilingual with both sign language and AVT. Later, when the child got older, loneliness started to kick in, and a long and hard journey to fit into signing community awaited.

For this child, it would perhaps be easier to wait with the implant, and rely on sign language, until the child was old enough to say: I want an implant. A lot less risky for everyone and no language deprivation occurs.

 

[faire_jour]

I have seen the use of CI close doors, instead of opening them. For example a CI implanted child refused to use sign language, even if the parents tried to make the child bilingual with both sign language and AVT. Later, when the child got older, loneliness started to kick in, and a long and hard journey to fit into signing community awaited.

For this child, it would perhaps be easier to wait with the implant, and rely on sign language, until the child was old enough to say: I want an implant. A lot less risky for everyone and no language deprivation occurs.

The child would not get the kind of benefit from the CI that he got because he was implanted young. The research clearly shows that the longer the brain is without auditory stimulation the harder it is to learn to interpret the sound. By waiting you are clearly choosing to make the benefit less or at the very least much harder.

The parents could have chosen to continue to sign and include the child in the Deaf community. They didn't have to stop. Plus, I have never heard that becoming a part of the Deaf community is "long and hard".

And you didn't say that the child was language deprived, but that he had social issues, two totally different things.

 

[rick48]

Rick,

As far as even ground, I meant as far as evening the playing field between hearing and deaf children and what the future opportunities available to them as adults.

As we established before, I agree that it is ultimately the responsibility of the parents to make the right decision for their child's personal needs. You are also correct in that the majority of US residents speak English, but I have also seen sources that it could be actually as low as 82%. However, I still maintain that there needs to be greater acknowledgment that ASL is like any language (besides English) and that even though the syntax, grammar, etc. may be different, it doesn't mean that those who use ASL, especially as it is reflected in written form, are in anyway lacking in intelligence and should be offered the same opportunities as their hearing counterparts.

Yes, I meant that about 99% use spoken language and agree that those who use spoken English would be less than that. Either way, it is beyond debate that virtually every person in the United States does not use ASL as their primary means of communication.

Wholeheartedly agree that those who use ASL are not lacking in intelligence but that has nothing to do with implanting your child. Not really sure why you are injecting it into this discussion.

An implant does not make your child more intelligent but if it gives that child the opportunity to develop oral language skills then that child can have more opportunities available to her. Whether that is right or wrong is not the issue but acknowledging the reality.

Just as getting a college degree is not a sign of intelligence but the reality is that it gives those who have it more opportunities then those who, while they may even be more intelligent, but do not have a college education. Again, not right or wrong but reality.
Rick

 

[flip]

The child would not get the kind of benefit from the CI that he got because he was implanted young. The research clearly shows that the longer the brain is without auditory stimulation the harder it is to learn to interpret the sound. By waiting you are clearly choosing to make the benefit less or at the very least much harder.

The parents could have chosen to continue to sign and include the child in the Deaf community. They didn't have to stop. Plus, I have never heard that becoming a part of the Deaf community is "long and hard".

And you didn't say that the child was language deprived, but that he had social issues, two totally different things.

I didn't say that the parents did stop using sign, but that the child refused to do so, it wanted to rely on speech alone.

Becoming a part of the Deaf community can be "long and hard" for some hard of hearing people, and some never makes it. I don't know why you never heard of it?

My point is that some deaf people feel unlucky they was implanted, and refuse to use CI anymore. Not all children are the same.

 

[faire_jour]

I didn't say that the parents did stop using sign, but that the child refused to do so, it wanted to rely on speech alone.

Becoming a part of the Deaf community can be "long and hard" for some hard of hearing people, and some never makes it. I don't know why you never heard of it?

My point is that some deaf people feel unlucky they was implanted, and refuse to use CI anymore. Not all children are the same.

If the child wanted to use speech, what were the parents supposed to do, deny him that opportunity?

You also never said that he was refusing to use his CI, just that he was having social issues.

Also, if the child wants to take his CI off, so what!? That is their decision. But at least they were given the choice. If they hadn't been given the CI, they wouldn't have the option. They would be unable to listen and speak and that would mean less choices and options.

 

[flip]

If the child wanted to use speech, what were the parents supposed to do, deny him that opportunity?

No, of course not?

You also never said that he was refusing to use his CI, just that he was having social issues.

Right, he did not refuse to use his CI. Social issues, yes.

Also, if the child wants to take his CI off, so what!? That is their decision. But at least they were given the choice. If they hadn't been given the CI, they wouldn't have the option. They would be unable to listen and speak and that would mean less choices and options.

Yes, so what... I am not sure what your point is. This child wanted to rely on the CI alone, refusing to use sign language. Later it turned out this did not work very well, and the child realized she belonged a place she rejected earlier. If this child was not provided with a CI, the social issues could perhaps been avoided. My point is that if one claim that CI allways is a good thing, some perspectives and examples are missing.

If they didn't got CI, they would never be able to listen and speak? I think we are exaggerating a bit now...

 

[faire_jour]

No, of course not?

Right, he did not refuse to use his CI. Social issues, yes.

Yes, so what... I am not sure what your point is. This child wanted to rely on the CI alone, refusing to use sign language. Later it turned out this did not work very well, and the child realized she belonged a place she rejected earlier. If this child was not provided with a CI, the social issues could perhaps been avoided. My point is that if one claim that CI allways is a good thing, some perspectives and examples are missing.

If they didn't got CI, they would never be able to listen and speak? I think we are exaggerating a bit now...

Without a CI my daughter would be unable to learn to speak or understand spoken languge. That is no exaggeration.

 

[AlleyCat]

Without a CI my daughter would be unable to learn to speak or understand spoken languge. That is no exaggeration.

Sorry, but I disagree. I do know of deaf people (several, in fact) who speak quite well and they've NEVER had any hearing. It is an exaggeration that anyone without a CI or without any hearing will be unable to learn to speak.

 

[faire_jour]

Sorry, but I disagree. I do know of deaf people (several, in fact) who speak quite well and they've NEVER had any hearing. It is an exaggeration that anyone without a CI or without any hearing will be unable to learn to speak.

I said my daughter. She had 5 years of therapy and she had 3 words. It wasn't working. She had made no progress in 3 1/2 years. I was talking about her.

Again, I have stated that the ability to hear makes listening and speaking easier. Even if a profoundly deaf person can speak well, how is their receptive language? Can they understand when someone else speaks to them? That is a HUGE part of communication, and a CI help with that leaps and bounds.

 

[shel90]

Sorry, but I disagree. I do know of deaf people (several, in fact) who speak quite well and they've NEVER had any hearing. It is an exaggeration that anyone without a CI or without any hearing will be unable to learn to speak.

U and I both are those deaf people who can speak quite well with little residual hearing.

 

[faire_jour]

U and I both are those deaf people who can speak quite well with little residual hearing.

What about receptive? Can you understand spoken language? That is the benefit of a CI. I clearly already said that.

 

[shel90]

What about receptive? Can you understand spoken language? That is the benefit of a CI. I clearly already said that.

Yes, I understand it..if I didnt, I would use writing more often. There are different ways to understand spoken language..thru the air or thru print.

 

[faire_jour]

Yes, I understand it..if I didnt, I would use writing more often. There are different ways to understand spoken language..thru the air or thru print.

I thought that you said you lipread, not that you communicate through listening.

 

[shel90]

I thought that you said you lipread, not that you communicate through listening.

Yep, lipreading....is that such a bad thing? Just like with some deaf people who cant lipread, they write on paper with heairng people..as long as communicating is happening, isnt that important? I dont see from your point of view.

My only issue with lipreading is in group situations, that's all.

 

[faire_jour]

Yep, lipreading....is that such a bad thing? Just like with some deaf people who cant lipread, they write on paper with heairng people..as long as communicating is happening, isnt that important? I dont see from your point of view.

My only issue with lipreading is in group situations, that's all.

My point is that the CI open the door of listening. Also, kids who are implanted early learn to speak and listen without years of therapy. That is something that can't happen without it. It's about opportunities.

 

[Bebonang]

My point is that the CI open the door of listening. Also, kids who are implanted early learn to speak and listen without years of therapy. That is something that can't happen without it. It's about opportunities.

You are still dreaming and going overboard. I have watched some of the videos about the miracle of having a children using a CIs and I noticed that young children are really suffering with being trying to talk and to be made to listen. Their faces are in pain and not happy at all. If you think that children rely on listening with spoken language and think that it will work like a miracle which is not true at all. Many hearing parents and professionals like Doctors, and Speech therapists are trying to force them to do this and the deaf children suffer the most. The hearing people do not understand how they have suffer with this. To me it is just a device putting into the Cochlear and if the implant is not working, then how do the child or young teenager get the Cochlear Implant out of their head? It is just surgery and it is not a miracle. To you and many other hearing people, It is always hoping and finding a way for a cure for the deaf children to be able to hear and to listen with spoken words and there is no guarantees at all. If you want your daughter to hear with only sounds from the hearing aids, but not listen as it is impossible even when young toddlers. They will be happy with it without the hassle. We can rely on using the hearing aids just for sounds only the sounds are not always clear. To some of the Hard of Hearing people, they can hear the sounds clear but not be able to pick up the words clearly. We have gone through experiences and it is very difficult to get the messages and explained our situations that it is bad enough not to be able to use ASL and forced us to do what you all wanted us to do. You all hearing people think that you all know all about deafness but you have never experience being deaf. We are all very proud to be DEAF. SO STOP!!!!

 

[faire_jour]

You are still dreaming and going overboard. I have watched some of the videos about the miracle of having a children using a CIs and I noticed that young children are really suffering with being trying to talk and to be made to listen. Their faces are in pain and not happy at all. If you think that children rely on listening with spoken language and think that it will work like a miracle which is not true at all. Many hearing parents and professionals like Doctors, and Speech therapists are trying to force them to do this and the deaf children suffer the most. The hearing people do not understand how they have suffer with this. To me it is just a device putting into the Cochlear and if the implant is not working, then how do the child or young teenager get the Cochlear Implant out of their head? It is just surgery and it is not a miracle. To you and many other hearing people, It is always hoping and finding a way for a cure for the deaf children to be able to hear and to listen with spoken words and there is no guarantees at all. If you want your daughter to hear with only sounds from the hearing aids, but not listen as it is impossible even when young toddlers. They will be happy with it without the hassle. We can rely on using the hearing aids just for sounds only the sounds are not always clear. To some of the Hard of Hearing people, they can hear the sounds clear but not be able to pick up the words clearly. We have gone through experiences and it is very difficult to get the messages and explained our situations that it is bad enough not to be able to use ASL and forced us to do what you all wanted us to do. You all hearing people think that you all know all about deafness but you have never experience being deaf. We are all very proud to be DEAF. SO STOP!!!!

You are completly full of it. She can HEAR. She understands the words I say. You are just wrong. Look at
Turn On My Ears!: Language Evaluation
or
Lotte Sofie: Singing "Leaves are falling"
or Miss Kat herself
Miss Kat's Deaf journey: Big Egg

None of these kids are suffering. And you are wrong, CI's work.