Is a 'Normal' life always better?

Is a 'Normal' life always better then a disabled life?

  • Yes. I always wish I wasn't disabled.

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Yes, but I don't consider deafness as a disability.

    Votes: 6 26.1%

  • It depends on the disability in question.

    Votes: 9 39.1%

  • It depends on the lifestyle of the 'normal person' in question.

    Votes: 8 34.8%

  • No. The disabled can do anything with the right support and rehabilitation.

    Votes: 5 21.7%

  • No. The challanges in my life makes life worth living.

    Votes: 10 43.5%

  • Other.

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Total voters
    23
dreama said:
I am not mixing issues.

Abortion in itself is not a disablity issue but SELECTIVE ABORTION IS.

If we have one time limit for normal babies and another time limit for disabled babies and people think this is an ok matter. Even killing off premie babies with disablities is an ok matter and legalizing Euthanasia that sends a clear message that we as disabled are 2nd class.

You also have people like Peter Singer who want to kill off disabled babies after birth. There is also been this woman from the house of lords who said that people with Alzimers had 'a possitive duty to die'.

I don't know about the number's but killing any group of people wether they happen to be jews or disabled is all the same to me.
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You are failing to give consideration that some birth defects are not detectable until after the first trimester.
 
They shouldn't be aborted at all. I've known people with Spina bifida at school and they lead good lives. It makes me feel so sad that disabled people condone the murder of other disabled people. Just in the name of 'a woman's right'.

Anyway this wasn't what this topic was about. It was about how sometimes being non disabled isn't always better. How disabled people, in certain cercomstances, can lead better lives.
 
The graph is still taped to the inside of my kitchen cupboard, pencil on a string dangling down beside it. It depicts the progression of my newborn daughter’s weight, most days showing a moderate increase, and thus reflects a thriving child. It ends abruptly at 80 days.

We first heard of our daughter’s genetic condition long before she was diagnosed. It was considered a lethal condition, an extra 13th chromosome. Most babies don’t make it to birth and those that do live a few years and are severely disabled. I thought, “Well, what is the point of that life?”

When the geneticist uttered the dreaded words, “your daughter has trisomy 13,” and it was a diagnosis about my baby and not someone else’s, the reality was entirely different. With the ferocity of a lioness, I wanted to love and protect this little girl, and do all that I could for her. We named her Annie.

After the diagnosis, the research began. It was frantic, and went long into the night for months. I researched medical details and personal stories. We communicated with parents all over the world who had a child with this very rare condition. We discovered that the babies can live longer, depending on their afflictions. The most amazing discovery was that the parents continually stated that they treasured and delighted in every day of their child’s life. They knew with certainty that the gift of that life was not theirs to keep. The children, called “survivors” were blissfully happy and progressed developmentally, albeit slowly. It became increasingly clear to us that unless the medical intervention to provide life was excessive, Annie was better off alive than dead.

Annie was born full term, crying with Apgar scores of 8 and 9. Without the common brain or heart defects, she was mildly afflicted.

We knew the first year would be rough. Annie suffered from low blood sugar and was in the hospital for the first six weeks. My husband took an indefinite leave from work. Everyone pitched in. Our 12 year old son took over the lawn maintenance and his older sisters took on Annie’s developmental progress and bought “mind stimulating” music and ordered her a “Bumbo seat” to help develop strength. The whole family came together in ways that I never dreamed possible. We discovered how true our friends and family were by their support and encouragement. Somehow, the homework got done and the kids made it to their soccer games.

At age 75 days, Annie smiled at us for the first time. Even now, a year later, the memory of that first and only smile causes me to cry.

Annie experienced respiratory distress at age 80 days and was transferred by ambulance to the Children’s hospital. The physicians told us she had pneumonia. Our beloved baby died less than 24 hours later.

There are two ironies to this story.

The first is that we thought we had a choice of life for Annie but the reality is that we did not. The medical records, which we instinctively felt compelled to obtain and have had reviewed, reveal no signs of pneumonia. An effective “Do not resuscitate” was ordered without our knowledge or consent. The final computerized medication report from the intensive care of an excellent hospital is inexplicably missing and documents reveal that lethal quantities of narcotics were signed out for Annie.

The hospital issued a letter of apology stating that sometimes “… communication does not occur in as clear and consistent a fashion as we would wish. For that, we are very sorry.” Recent developments in medical science can be used to diagnose and terminate certain lives but the choice to use medicine to prolong these lives doesn’t seem to be an option.

During her 80 days, our little Annie taught us our greatest lessons in life. Through her life, we experience the deepest sorrow and the most intense love. She taught us the true meaning and purpose of life and we are forever changed as a family. Our children have learned that if they are ever in need, their family will love them, protect them and do anything to support them, just like we did for Annie. They developed an incredible empathy for the disabled and the vulnerable.

The ultimate irony is that this little girl who seemed so broken, flawed and seemingly without purpose or value, was in fact, perfect after all.
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Interesting story. It was actually a comment for another article. Fresh Hopes and Concerns As Fetal DNA Tests Advance - washingtonpost.com and the main article is here: Fresh Hopes and Concerns As Fetal DNA Tests Advance
 
dreama said:
They shouldn't be aborted at all. I've known people with Spina bifida at school and they lead good lives. It makes me feel so sad that disabled people condone the murder of other disabled people. Just in the name of 'a woman's right'.

Anyway this wasn't what this topic was about. It was about how sometimes being non disabled isn't always better. How disabled people, in certain cercomstances, can lead better lives.
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Define a "good life". To someone looking in, I've led a "good life", too. But, take a closer look and someone would see what my life truly has been like. If I was carrying a fetus with spina bifida, I would consider abortion simply on what I know what life may be like for that child.

Your assertion that the disabled lead better lives than the non-disabled is obsurd. In many cases, the opposite is true, and those who can't see that are blind!

Society as a whole looks down on people who are different. This starts in the cradle. Kids pick on people who are different. Other adults do the same thing. Discrimination is rampant. If that's not enough, the medical challenges that alot of the disabled face are daunting. Those who haven't experienced this can't possibly undestand and I don't expect them to. But, I resent this idea we have such a wonderful existence. We don't. It's very, very difficult to live with the challenges we do.
 
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Oceanbreeze said:
Your assertion that the disabled lead better lives than the non-disabled is obsurd. In many cases, the opposite is true, and those who can't see that are blind!
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No pun intended. :giggle: (Sorry, OB. I couldn't resist. :))

Seriously...:gpost:
 
Oceanbreeze said:
Your assertion that the disabled lead better lives than the non-disabled is obsurd. In many cases, the opposite is true, and those who can't see that are blind!

Society as a whole looks down on people who are different. This starts in the cradle. Kids pick on people who are different. Other adults do the same thing. Discrimination is rampant. If that's not enough, the medical challenges that alot of the disabled face are daunting. Those who haven't experienced this can't possibly undestand and I don't expect them to. But, I resent this idea we have such a wonderful existence. We don't. It's very, very difficult to live with the challenges we do.
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People look down on women, Jews, homosexuals and people of differant nationality or colour. As a child I was looked down more often for being french at a time when the french were not well thought of. Yes, I was and still am discriminated against because of my disability as well but I see no reason to kill disabled people. It really saddens me to think people who are themselves disabled should think a perfectly able person with Spina bifida would EVER Be considered to be murdered. It's ethnically repugnant to me. Just as all Eugnaics is Ethnically republic to me. Why can't anyone else see that.

Sometimes a disabled person with a successful carreer ahead of them and good social life CAN lead a better life despite discrimination. It's not what you are. It's what you do with your life. I'm certainly glad my mum didn't decide to kill me before birth.
 
dreama said:
People look down on women, Jews, homosexuals and people of differant nationality or colour. As a child I was looked down more often for being french at a time when the french were not well thought of. Yes, I was and still am discriminated against because of my disability as well but I see no reason to kill disabled people. It really saddens me to think people who are themselves disabled should think a perfectly able person with Spina bifida would EVER Be considered to be murdered. It's ethnically repugnant to me. Just as all Eugnaics is Ethnically republic to me. Why can't anyone else see that.

Sometimes a disabled person with a successful carreer ahead of them and good social life CAN lead a better life despite discrimination. It's not what you are. It's what you do with your life. I'm certainly glad my mum didn't decide to kill me before birth.
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This also is NOT reality. I have refrained from saying this because it's painful for me, but at this point, it doesn't matter I'll say it.

My childhood sweetheart had spina bifida. We went to school together and knew each other for years. We met when I was 12 and he 15. We dated a few years later and remained good friends. After graduation, he developed depression and got into drugs. He ended up homeless because of his drug habit. He hooked up with a known heroin addict before all was said and done. At the end of it, he tragically ended his life at the age of 29 when he took matters into his own hands and stepped in front of a train.

Stories like this are not rare. In fact, statically speaking depression and other mood disorders are quite common in people with spina bifida. You might ask why that is. The reason is simple. Life is NOT the rosey picture you want to paint it. Often we are sheltered by our parents because they want to do what is best for us, but our misguided. People don't want to hire the disabled, so there's a great number of us on welfare. Traditional health plans won't cover our health expenses because we have pre-existing health conditions and we'd cost them too much money. This means that alot of us our on medicaid. In the case of my friend, his father was a raging alcoholic and he was abusive.

This also doesn't take into acct the medical fragility. I have had well over 30 surgeries and I just turned 40 about a month ago. I've had so many infections I can't even count them anymore. I've fought two life threatening blood infections in my life. The first one sending me into cardiac arrest and into a coma when I was just six years old. I've had pressure sores that nearly have taken my life. It can go on and on ...

So, yes. I know what I'm talking about and those who haven't dealt UP CLOSE with a spina bifida child, don't! You just don't, so if I knew I was carrying a fetus with spina bifida, I would terminate the pregnancy. Society as it is just can't deal with someone like me and that's pretty much fact on all kinds of levels.
 
I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. Also the fact you believe that society cannot deal with Spina bifida. We need to educate them so they will in the future. Just as we educate people into accepting women, gays, and people from differant ethnic minorities. ALL these groups have got persicuted in the past and some still do today yet you would be called a racist if you suggested all black people or all asian people should be aborted. So why is it permitted to allow disabled people differant treatment. Since being disabled is no worse then being from a differant ethnic group. We face discrimintation sure but some of us choose to fight that. Some of us don't want to die. Some of us would rather choose to live.


I've also known people who have abused drugs. One of them died. She left behind a 4 year old child. She was non disabled. All the druggies I've known were non disabled too. Not that a disabled person can't abuse drugs. I'd never presume that since I used to get stoned a lot myself which is how I got to meet so many druggies in the first place.

However, I'm affraid I just don't see any corrilation between your friends drug habbits and the fact she had spina bifida. These 2 facts are irrevelant.
 
i don't vote either cuz this poll i feel was a insult i am sorry

i am leading my life as i would be able to that i can't do before and it did prevent me to do that is normal.
 
dreama said:
I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. Also the fact you believe that society cannot deal with Spina bifida. We need to educate them so they will in the future. Just as we educate people into accepting women, gays, and people from differant ethnic minorities. ALL these groups have got persicuted in the past and some still do today yet you would be called a racist if you suggested all black people or all asian people should be aborted. So why is it permitted to allow disabled people differant treatment. Since being disabled is no worse then being from a differant ethnic group. We face discrimintation sure but some of us choose to fight that. Some of us don't want to die. Some of us would rather choose to live.


I've also known people who have abused drugs. One of them died. She left behind a 4 year old child. She was non disabled. All the druggies I've known were non disabled too. Not that a disabled person can't abuse drugs. I'd never presume that since I used to get stoned a lot myself which is how I got to meet so many druggies in the first place.

However, I'm affraid I just don't see any corrilation between your friends drug habbits and the fact she had spina bifida. These 2 facts are irrevelant.[/QUOTE]

It's not just SB that society can't deal with. It's the disabled as a whole. I've only used SB as the example because that's what I've grown up with. But, you can apply the same logic to cerebral palsy, mental disablities, or even deaf/blindness. The fact is society as a wholes wants to look away from us. Just look across this forum for example at the many posts made by people stating that the medical establishments strives to make the deaf "more normal". It's no different than what I've been saying. It's the same thing in fact. Like it or not, people have a problem with other people who are different and I don't want my child to deal with everything that encompasses life with a disablity of any sort.

And, with that...I'm done. I've said all I can say. I'm not going to change my view and your not going to change yours, so we're at an impasse. Let s omeone else have a crack at this if they wish. I'm done.
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Oceanbreeze said:
This also is NOT reality. I have refrained from saying this because it's painful for me, but at this point, it doesn't matter I'll say it.

My childhood sweetheart had spina bifida. We went to school together and knew each other for years. We met when I was 12 and he 15. We dated a few years later and remained good friends. After graduation, he developed depression and got into drugs. He ended up homeless because of his drug habit. He hooked up with a known heroin addict before all was said and done. At the end of it, he tragically ended his life at the age of 29 when he took matters into his own hands and stepped in front of a train.

Stories like this are not rare. In fact, statically speaking depression and other mood disorders are quite common in people with spina bifida. You might ask why that is. The reason is simple. Life is NOT the rosey picture you want to paint it. Often we are sheltered by our parents because they want to do what is best for us, but our misguided. People don't want to hire the disabled, so there's a great number of us on welfare. Traditional health plans won't cover our health expenses because we have pre-existing health conditions and we'd cost them too much money. This means that alot of us our on medicaid. In the case of my friend, his father was a raging alcoholic and he was abusive.

This also doesn't take into acct the medical fragility. I have had well over 30 surgeries and I just turned 40 about a month ago. I've had so many infections I can't even count them anymore. I've fought two life threatening blood infections in my life. The first one sending me into cardiac arrest and into a coma when I was just six years old. I've had pressure sores that nearly have taken my life. It can go on and on ...

So, yes. I know what I'm talking about and those who haven't dealt UP CLOSE with a spina bifida child, don't! You just don't, so if I knew I was carrying a fetus with spina bifida, I would terminate the pregnancy. Society as it is just can't deal with someone like me and that's pretty much fact on all kinds of levels.
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Serious? That's how you feel?
 
I've seen and lived through it too but draw an entirely differant conclusion. After all the answer to discrimination against blacks, jews, women, gays etc... is not to kill them. So I don't see why discrimination against disabled people should be any differant.

It makes me feel so sad that a disabled person would abort babies like them. It's like some women who want to abort females because they live in a culture where male babies are preferable.

If I had a disabled baby I'd bring her into the world. I'd teach them to accept who they were. That whilst life can be hard for persicuted minorites, everyone has their problems and not everyone will be made to feel welcome. So they have to learn to stand up and say I'm here anyway. If you don't like it TOUGH!
 
dreama said:
I've seen and lived through it too but draw an entirely differant conclusion. After all the answer to discrimination against blacks, jews, women, gays etc... is not to kill them. So I don't see why discrimination against disabled people should be any differant.

It makes me feel so sad that a disabled person would abort babies like them. It's like some women who want to abort females because they live in a culture where male babies are preferable.

If I had a disabled baby I'd bring her into the world. I'd teach them to accept who they were. That whilst life can be hard for persicuted minorites, everyone has their problems and not everyone will be made to feel welcome. So they have to learn to stand up and say I'm here anyway. If you don't like it TOUGH!
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You are awfully short sighted.
 
dreama said:
I've seen and lived through it too but draw an entirely differant conclusion. After all the answer to discrimination against blacks, jews, women, gays etc... is not to kill them. So I don't see why discrimination against disabled people should be any differant.

It makes me feel so sad that a disabled person would abort babies like them. It's like some women who want to abort females because they live in a culture where male babies are preferable.

If I had a disabled baby I'd bring her into the world. I'd teach them to accept who they were. That whilst life can be hard for persicuted minorites, everyone has their problems and not everyone will be made to feel welcome. So they have to learn to stand up and say I'm here anyway. If you don't like it TOUGH!
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You know why? Because some people don't believe in a mircale, hope, faith (no, it's not about religions), and positive things because they don't bother to look at other side... which is why so many people are just give up so easy and to abound the positive thoughts... They don't have any patience or tolerance for those little ones; unborn or born, and disabled or non-disabled.

Simply, they don't want to deal with "non-normal-ness". =/
 
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