UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture - Page 4

**Reba** · 01-28-2009, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Afterall--do you believe in everything the government tells you?

No, but I don't think everything the government says is a lie either.

And I believe very little that I read in blogs.

**Maria** · 01-28-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

No, but I don't think everything the government says is a lie either.

And I believe very little that I read in blogs.

Same here, but it is somethin' else, not blogs. LOL

Byrdie714 · 01-28-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

No, but I don't think everything the government says is a lie either.

And I believe very little that I read in blogs.

**Foxrac** · 01-28-2009, 09:10 AM

I don't think UN will make prosecute but in my opinion, terrorists has nothing with Geneva Conventions.

**Jiro** · 01-28-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxrac

I don't think UN will make prosecute but in my opinion, terrorists has nothing with Geneva Conventions.

you got that right. beside - UN has absolutely NO arresting authority. They'll have to bring their case to War Tribunal Court. All they do is VOICE their complaint/protest. sucks to be you, UN

Macian · 01-28-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

difference is... IRA as terrorist group has a nation of their own - Northern Ireland... which is just like Israel-Palestine. But American's terrorists don't. We're pretty much cherry-picking them on several countries.

exactly Jiro, the IRA were fighting for their land back from the english government(but thats another debate), there's nothing the US can give Al Qaeda but appeasement, and as there is nothing rational within their demands it's never going to happen, and quite rightly so.

Macian · 01-28-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

you got that right. beside - UN has absolutely NO arresting authority. They'll have to bring their case to War Tribunal Court. All they do is VOICE their complaint/protest. sucks to be you, UN

there is not a hope in hell the UN will ask for them to stand trial, they don't have the balls, even if they did, all their red tape will take so long bush will be long gone by then, the UN are nothing but a waste of space, it's idiotic things like this that makes a mockery of the whole organisation(if thats possible these days

)
A powerful organisation would have reacted as it happened, sanctions etc, it's not news, we all know it had been happening but no one reacted, why now? do they seriously think now he's not the president they will manage to bring him before the courts? if they do they are worse than I thought.

move on, it aint gonna happen

**Jiro** · 01-28-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macian

there is not a hope in hell the UN will ask for them to stand trial, they don't have the balls, even if they did, all their red tape will take so long bush will be long gone by then, the UN are nothing but a waste of space, it's idiotic things like this that makes a mockery of the whole organisation(if thats possible these days

)
A powerful organisation would have reacted as it happened, sanctions etc, it's not news, we all know it had been happening but no one reacted, why now? do they seriously think now he's not the president they will manage to bring him before the courts? if they do they are worse than I thought.

move on, it aint gonna happen

the best they can do is to have Interpol issuing the arrest warrant - but that's assuming Bush or Dick Cheney flies out of country.

Macian · 01-28-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

the best they can do is to have Interpol issuing the arrest warrant - but that's assuming Bush or Dick Cheney flies out of country.

and I bet there's no shortage of US citizens willing to buy them their tickets

but no, it's all irrellevant, it's just one idiot pissing against the wind.

**Beowulf** · 01-28-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macian

and I bet there's no shortage of US citizens willing to buy them their tickets

but no, it's all irrellevant, it's just one idiot pissing against the wind.

Then I'll be the idiot bleedin' wet.

I agree that this subject is much ado about nothing, unfortunately. You have to be an American citizen to truly understand how many of our rights are already gone, to live with the feeling that the Constitution is in the trash heap, with the feeling that the Federal Government is making up the laws as they go along, under the guise of "national security." I agree that this thread is much ado about nothing, since Congress has years ago voted to pardon the Bush junta for potential war crimes. We Americans are such pissers for all the care and attention we pay to our own affairs.

This link is pretty much sums up my views on the matter...
Can George W. Bush 'Self-Pardon' Himself? | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet

By the way, good to see you again, Macian!

Nika · 01-28-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I'm curious.

Suppose a pedophile kidnapped your child, and buried him somewhere with a limited amount of air left. The police catch the pedophile but don't know where your child is buried. The clock is ticking. The police try various ways to get information from the pedophile. They try pleading to his humanity, trickery, family contacts, sympathy, legal deals, etc. They know from his family that he's terrified of drowning (he even avoids crossing bridges).

Would you approve of using waterboarding on this person to get information?

Nope.

**Jiro** · 01-28-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Then I'll be the idiot bleedin' wet.

I agree that this subject is much ado about nothing, unfortunately. You have to be an American citizen to truly understand how many of our rights are already gone, to live with the feeling that the Constitution is in the trash heap, with the feeling that the Federal Government is making up the laws as they go along, under the guise of "national security." I agree that this thread is much ado about nothing, since Congress has years ago voted to pardon the Bush junta for potential war crimes. We Americans are such pissers for all the care and attention we pay to our own affairs.

This link is pretty much sums up my views on the matter...
Can George W. Bush 'Self-Pardon' Himself? | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet

By the way, good to see you again, Macian!

it's called Patriot Acts. There's a chance that Obama may not renew it

**Jiro** · 01-28-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nika

Nope.

hmmm..... I guess your child would feel unfortunate to be your child, knowing that you won't do anything to save him/her life from bastard... I don't know how you gonna live with that conscience.

**Beowulf** · 01-28-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

hmmm..... I guess your child would feel unfortunate to be your child, knowing that you won't do anything to save him/her life from bastard... I don't know how you gonna live with that conscience.

Torture is notoriously unreliable.
In a different scenario, how would you feel if your daughter got arrested and held without being charged (yup, Patriot Act) and they show you her signed confession that she shot JKF from the grassy knoll? That is what torture is, basically, to get the person being tortured to admit to anything they want to hear.

Nika · 01-28-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

hmmm..... I guess your child would feel unfortunate to be your child, knowing that you won't do anything to save him/her life from bastard... I don't know how you gonna live with that conscience.

Oh I would definitely do something about it. Just not torture.

**Jiro** · 01-28-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Torture is notoriously unreliable.
In a different scenario, how would you feel if your daughter got arrested and held without being charged (yup, Patriot Act) and they show you her signed confession that she shot JKF from the grassy knoll? That is what torture is, basically, to get the person being tortured to admit to anything they want to hear.

it's unreliable under certain torture techniques for certain duration. Beside - it's different from terrorism because his/her answer can be confirmed immediately.

wrong answer = more torture. simple as that

**Jiro** · 01-28-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nika

Oh I would definitely do something about it. Just not torture.

like what? Remember - your child has very limited time left because he/she will suffocate to death. See below.

Quote:

Suppose a pedophile kidnapped your child, and buried him somewhere with a limited amount of air left. The police catch the pedophile but don't know where your child is buried. The clock is ticking. The police try various ways to get information from the pedophile. They try pleading to his humanity, trickery, family contacts, sympathy, legal deals, etc. They know from his family that he's terrified of drowning (he even avoids crossing bridges).

1. Police and you tried everything - begging, tricking, sympathy, legal deals, etc.
2. sick pedophile refused to confess and laughed at you
3. your child is suffocating and will die soon
4. police found out that pedophile has a fear of drowning and water

would you permit police to waterboard him? if no - what your other suggestion?

**Beowulf** · 01-28-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

it's unreliable under certain torture techniques for certain duration. Beside - it's different from terrorism because his/her answer can be confirmed immediately.

wrong answer = more torture. simple as that

Until you get the answer you want. That is my point.

**Jiro** · 01-28-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Until you get the answer you want. That is my point.

for war - it's all about delaying the vital information until that information is useless. That's why torture can be proven unreliable. However, there are certain techniques that yield more reliable result but it's still unreliable.

for law enforcement - coerced testimony or signing false testimony is because the accused was intentionally confused or threatened. For ie - police will threaten to deport or arrest his family member if he did not confess (even though he's innocent but cops don't care). It is also possible that the accused is undiagnosed mentally-ill or undiagnosed mentally-retarded... which leads to signing false testimony.

Either way - this is not related to Reba's hypothetical waterboarding scenario by law enforcement.

**Beowulf** · 01-28-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

for war - it's all about delaying the vital information until that information is useless. That's why torture can be proven unreliable. However, there are certain techniques that yield more reliable result but it's still unreliable.

for law enforcement - coerced testimony or signing false testimony is because the accused was intentionally confused or threatened. For ie - police will threaten to deport or arrest his family member if he did not confess (even though he's innocent but cops don't care). It is also possible that the accused is undiagnosed mentally-ill or undiagnosed mentally-retarded... which leads to signing false testimony.

Either way - this is not related to Reba's hypothetical waterboarding scenario by law enforcement.

Is this an exercise in fluid thinking?

I think my hypothesis IS related to Reba's post. She said "a pedophile" (who supposedly knows the whereabouts of the missing girl). Assuming the POLICE has him in custody, do we give them the power to torture? It sounds like there are other suspects. Do they get tortured as well? I have always heard that those who partake in torture inevitably try it themselves, and that makes my blood run cold.

Macian · 01-28-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Then I'll be the idiot bleedin' wet.

I agree that this subject is much ado about nothing, unfortunately. You have to be an American citizen to truly understand how many of our rights are already gone, to live with the feeling that the Constitution is in the trash heap, with the feeling that the Federal Government is making up the laws as they go along, under the guise of "national security." I agree that this thread is much ado about nothing, since Congress has years ago voted to pardon the Bush junta for potential war crimes. We Americans are such pissers for all the care and attention we pay to our own affairs.

This link is pretty much sums up my views on the matter...
Can George W. Bush 'Self-Pardon' Himself? | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet

By the way, good to see you again, Macian!

you too

as a diversion to this dangerous topic i agree, yet your views have me confused,ie"I agree that this subject is much ado about nothing, unfortunately. You have to be an American citizen to truly understand how many of our rights are already gone"
whats american about it? it was us Scots and the Irish who penned the words, you owe your liberty to the celts, your wisdowm came from that in so many ways.
BUT, we didnt give you torture, how the US manages to somehow include that in the constitution is beyond me.
dont go Quoting small extracs either, its the same as the terrorists are doing, let us rise above all religious nonsense and let common sense prevail.

hangs around waiting for Reba to say the holy words

no religious discussions

forgive me Reba but it's about the only thing that gets ye posting

**Banjo** · 01-28-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Torture is notoriously unreliable.
In a different scenario, how would you feel if your daughter got arrested and held without being charged (yup, Patriot Act) and they show you her signed confession that she shot JKF from the grassy knoll? That is what torture is, basically, to get the person being tortured to admit to anything they want to hear.

Oh, that's coercing. It's pretty easy to coerce someone into a false confession.

**Reba** · 01-28-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macian

... hangs around waiting for Reba to say the holy words

no religious discussions

forgive me Reba but it's about the only thing that gets ye posting

Not at all. Sometimes I post just to

I didn't post earlier because I was (you will love this) at Wednesday Bible study and prayer service at my church.

Macian · 01-28-2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Not at all. Sometimes I post just to

I didn't post earlier because I was (you will love this) at Wednesday Bible study and prayer service at my church.

I'm so sorry for that post Reba, i have no excuse, that was beneath me, i look forward to reading your feedback, please forgive my lapse of decorum

my sincere apoligies...

**Reba** · 01-28-2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macian

I'm so sorry for that post Reba, i have no excuse, that was beneath me, i look forward to reading your feedback, please forgive my lapse of decorum

my sincere apoligies...

All forgiven.

Macian · 01-28-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

All forgiven.

thanks reba but I dont deserve it, glad we can still b friends

it wont happen again rest assured.

Steel X · 01-29-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Afterall--do you believe in everything the government tells you?

Oh hell no. lol

I'm not that stupid.

DURAY · 01-30-2009, 10:40 PM

there are still Russians who were involved inthe Soviet Union's invasion of Hungary in 1956, Czech in 1968 and Afghanistan in 1979. Why aren't we prosecuted them? of course, always blame the right-wing, conservative Republicans.

Hear Again · 01-31-2009, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DURAY

there are still Russians who were involved inthe Soviet Union's invasion of Hungary in 1956, Czech in 1968 and Afghanistan in 1979. Why aren't we prosecuted them? of course, always blame the right-wing, conservative Republicans.

where do you get that idea?

**Liebling:-)))** · 01-31-2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

where do you get that idea?

Yes, I am wondering the same...

01-28-2009, 09:10 AM	#94 (permalink)
Foxrac Need Stormtroopers? Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Zaphias Posts: 32,600	I don't think UN will make prosecute but in my opinion, terrorists has nothing with Geneva Conventions. __________________ In Moto We Trust

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01-30-2009, 10:40 PM	#118 (permalink)
DURAY Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 548	there are still Russians who were involved inthe Soviet Union's invasion of Hungary in 1956, Czech in 1968 and Afghanistan in 1979. Why aren't we prosecuted them? of course, always blame the right-wing, conservative Republicans.