Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice? - Page 23

Reba · 11-29-2007, 07:49 PM

Peter Singer also says:

"...When the death of a disabled infant will lead to the birth of another infant with better prospects of a happy life, the total amount of happiness will be greater if the disabled infant is killed. The loss of happy life for the first infant is outweighed by the gain of a happier life for the second. Therefore, if killing the haemophiliac infant has no adverse effect on others, it would, according to the total view, be right to kill him..."
Excerpted from Practical Ethics, 2nd edition, Cambridge, 1993, pp. 175-217

Banjo · 11-29-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

This will chill your blood:

read more: Taking Life: Humans, by Peter Singer

It gets worse.

Ugh... very Third Reich.

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:17 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

my disagreeing with you does not effect the friendship that we have.

Judge mothers' choice as murder, selfish etc is not belong agree to disagree. If you want your friendship to be value then respect their choice, no matter what. Of course you can agree to disagree and share how you feel but not judge their choice negative.

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You cannot tell us we have no right to have our say to those who support pro-choice. Pro-Lifers are here to represent the life of both the mothers and babies.

Its about respect. We show our respect on you what you think about abortion. We have no problem with you for disagree with us and then voice your view why you are against abortion but judge mother's choice negative? I do not see any pro-choice supporters judge pro-life supporters as closed minded, selfish, etc. but pro-life supporters.

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Women are being killed by safe abortion if you aren't aware of that so are babies who are not wanted.

Don't you know what life-treatening is about? It could risk women's life for continue to habe baby.

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Liebling, Let's not forget that embryos and fetuses are equally human. Why? because inside the mother's womb there's a growing fetus with fingers, toes and a heartbeat.

The fetus and embryo are being created together with human sperm and egg. The human fetus and embryo are not full human development.
WRMC - Facts about an unborn fetus

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If it's the duty of the American government to protect the rights of the Americans what about the rights of the innocent unborn babies?

I can't answer your question here because I don't know much about US's abortion rules/law. As far as I know that partial-birth abortion was banned in America last 2003.

Here in Germany - abortion rules/law up to 12 weeks, not after 12 weeks. Public Health Insurance only cover the abortion cost with doctor's writing with good reason.

After 12 weeks, partial-birth abortion is for only medical reasons like risk fetus's life in mother's womb or risk mother's life.

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Those pro-choice don't mourns over aborted babies (innocent and helpless human embryos and fetuses)

How do you know that those pro-choice people don't mourn over aborted fetus? Are you accussed them for that? Do you think it's very easy for the mothers to abort their fetus? No, it's not very easy for them. Some people, I know are not like that. It's not a very easy choice for many mothers but they has to with good reasons.

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there's no funerals are held for them; they have no graves being held for them either, they're in a trash cans. ,

My friend buried 6 months old fetus after partial-birth abortion because her fetus is dead in her womb. The doctor suggested her to donate her fetus to science or make funeral arrangement if she like to. My friend decided for buried her fetus. Doctor gave her drugs to push dead fetus out of her womb. They buried him (boy). Honestly, I has no idea about trash cans for partial-birth fetuses. I don't understand why mothers allow doctors did with fetuses after partial-birth abortion. Normally they would ask the doctors to respect their wishes for bury their fetus after partial-birth abortion.

Anyway, partial-birth abortion after 12 weeks is the worst than remove fetus before 12 weeks.

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You support the right of women to have abortions

with good reasons only.

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What does that make you? murders too.

See?

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You pro-choice people don't support abuse, neglect on children and babies that are living on earth, but you support killing babies in mothers wombs?

something doesn't seem right with me here.

A fetus is not a person yet. You can't compare a fetus with a person.

Babies and children are alive out of mother's womb and have brain and feeling. They can see and talk and want to be loved which is not same as a fetus. A fetus only depend on nutrition to develop into human. I am against abuse/neglect on poor babies and children and label mother as selfish for let children suffer like this. I am also against war and death depently because people kill people, too. You are against abortion and support death penatly.. It make no sense to me.

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Pro-lifers don't believe in violence such as abuse, murdering, on all children and babies including the ones in the mothers wombs.

Some pro-lifers support death penalty - this is revenage and murder.

Some pro-lifers support war - this is revenage and murder.

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See the differences??

No

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Ask yourself this question while you're pregnant, do you feel the compassion and love for your unborn child while growing inside your womb, would you want to aborted it?

That's why it's not very easy for women for continue to have baby for not. It's very hard for them when they know they cannot afford to keep their baby or life threating or whatever.

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:24 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Oh I get it now I thought you were speaking of being against the death penalty only, I got confused.

Okay, not only death penalty but war as well.

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Are you saying my life experiences is based on a lie?

I do not see anything that I accussed you a liar but quoted your post as general... Your own word... If you support women choice to have an abortion that means you also support having those babies being put in trash bags, and thrown in dumpsters. I take in that you talk general so I answer general.

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I witness it myself when I was in the abortion clinic. they did put a garbage bag under my butt while on the operation table, and the fetus dropped right in there and then was carried out, I did asked where that was going, I was told it was going to the dumpster.

Oh my dear... Is this simple to tell you that your fetus went to the dumpster without ask you what you want to do with your fetus?

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I pulled up some links that states where the fetus goes:

all unborn children who were aborted and disposed of in dumpsters

Abortion Torture Methods (have some pictures of trash cans where all the fetus goes <warning for those who cannot stand the sight of blood>
"The Truth"
Several bags were marked with the name of the aborted baby's mother, her age, the gestational age of the fetal child, the date of the abortion and a number

Yes this is very sad but I am still not against abortion for the good reasons but I am against to consider abortion as birth control.

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The "clinics" also sell the body parts.

See order forms for baby body parts in PDF format:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...bodyparts1.pdf

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...bodyparts2.pdf

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...bodyparts3.pdf

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...bodyparts4.pdf

Abortion is a big business. Follow the money.

It's partial-birth abortion, not just fetus removal (abortion).

I do not see anything in your 4 links that body part are selling or make business. I beleive it's for donation to scientic or organ donation to save people's risk life.

Selling or make business with part body and organs is an illegal.

It's very sad.

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Yes, it's awful how a baby is just sold for parts, like an auto junk yard.

It also proves that the so-called "fetus" has a human brain, eyes, legs, etc.

The abortionist tells the pregnant woman, oh, don't worry, it's not a baby, it's just a fetus. But that same abortionist tells the buyer, oh, yes, we can sell you human body parts. They are so two-faced!

Please correct ADers that it's partial-birth abortion, not abortion.

Kalista · 11-30-2007, 08:35 AM

[quote=Liebling:-)));877435]

Quote:

Okay, not only death penalty but war as well.

I do not see anything that I accussed you a liar but quoted your post as general... Your own word... If you support women choice to have an abortion that means you also support having those babies being put in trash bags, and thrown in dumpsters. I take in that you talk general so I answer general.

Oh my dear... Is this simple to tell you that your fetus went to the dumpster without ask you what you want to do with your fetus?

Yes this is very sad but I am still not against abortion for the good reasons but I am against to consider abortion as birth control.

It is interesting to read between both of your opinions in debate. I have few friends of mine who went through those experience abortion. I do some support abortion for a good reason due to wrong time and finance.

Ummm.,... you against the birth control as abortion. Straches my head ! Ummm.... I do not think that birth control considers as abortion.

That is new to me.

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:42 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

Label? where did I label anyone who had an abortion? all

Can you show me where have I named you in my previous? I do not see anything that I point my finger to you in my previous post.

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I did was provide the facts ..

It's your view as same as I have my view as well.

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Murder? why? because the fetus’s heart has already begun to beat by the time the mother misses her period and when women chooses to have sex without protection then they're taking the risks even if the pregnancy is unwanted or unplanned.

No, it's not just without sex protection but they also use form of birth control to prevent for have a baby, too. Form of birth control is not alway protect from pregnant. Some Aders explained you in their previous posts that they were unexpect pregnant when they were on the birth control pill and also links as well. It doesn't mean that it make them murder because they are not feel ready to be take responsible to raise a child or no money or no home.

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It's their responsibility and they must be willing to deal with the consequences, and while I do agree that women should have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies but unfortunately what about the fetus? does this mean another human being who has no say in this matter? and ignoring the fact that there are two bodies that are involved, the mother's and the baby's..

This is your opinion.

To me, I don't beleive to force a mother to take a responsible to raise an unwanted child because it would lead a child suffer/unhappy... which is not fair for a child to suffer like this. A child deserve a loving home and loving parents. It's women's choice either abortion or adoption, NOT partial-birth abortion.

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:46 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalista

It is interesting to read between both of your opinions in debate. I have few friends of mine who went through those experience abortion. I do some support abortion for a good reason due to wrong time and finance.

Yes I second that. That's why I respect women's choice.

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Ummm.,... you against the birth control as abortion. Straches my head ! Ummm.... I do not think that birth control considers as abortion.

That is new to me.

Unfortunlately yes

- there're common like that in Russia. They consider abortion as birth control. They can abort dozen of times what they like to... I really don't understand why they prefer abortion over form of birth control like pills, condum, etc.

That's why I support abortion with good reasons like what you mentioned, not just abort dozen of times like they think abortion as a birth control which is not right.

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

Exactly and one of the nurse at the abortion clinic told my old high school friend that it is not a baby it's just a small little pea..

Well, I saw an originial dead fetus at World Body museum at 3 years ago. Body World museum - Google Bilder Yes, very little... You can see the measure of fetus/emyro...
WRMC - Facts about an unborn fetus

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:54 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by webexplorer

I understand this problem. These letters are disgusted as I am not pleased to read them. At first, it was awful for me to think about the letters. I finally realized that how important for our babies survival what they need such as a new piece of lung replacement, heart, vessel, eye, and some parts because these babies died in the hospital. Their parents' choice whether they want to donate it to a research lab. We really cannot talk about bias. Wouldn't you be happy that your baby able to see something with his new eye? That's what it makes me happy that he can see as it is important for him to have a normal life.

It could be organ donation to save people's life.

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The only thing that bothers me is both researcher buyers and medical sellers are greedy for money. A seller buys one little arm that could be about $50,000 dollars. It is legal for most states as long as they have a research/medical license. My opinion is that a deliver baby fee should be waived if the baby does not make it. Isn't that sound right to you?

I do not see anything about sell and buy in Reba's link? *scratch my head*

Liebling:-))) · 11-30-2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria

I know. It hurts me even more when a nurse told me about it. I was soo pissed. No one ever told me all about it until I asked.

Yes I can understand how you feel.

Reba · 11-30-2007, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

It's partial-birth abortion, not just fetus removal (abortion).

I do not see anything in your 4 links that body part are selling or make business. I beleive it's for donation to scientic or organ donation to save people's risk life.

Selling or make business with part body and organs is an illegal.

It's very sad.

They were not used for transplantation to save someone's life.

They were used for research. Look again at the address on #2. They were sent to this place:

GASAS

Reba · 11-30-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

It could be organ donation to save people's life.

No, they weren't used for organ donation to save a life.

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I do not see anything about sell and buy in Reba's link? *scratch my head*

Notice that IIAM on #1 is this place:

Our mission/purpose is to service donor families and medical researchers.

Also notice that they claim to get body parts from volunteer donors; the babies didn't agree to donate, and I'll bet the mothers didn't willingly donate either. I'll bet the mothers signed away all rights to "fetal tissue" at the abortion clinic, not realizing what it meant. Also notice that IIAM's web page doesn't include abortion clinics as a source of their tissues, even though that's where they get it. Maybe they're not so proud of their association with abortion clinics?

See the fax phone number at the top of #4?

Now look at the phone number in red below.

Quote:

...Selling body parts or human tissue is against federal law, so how does the abortion industry circumvent this? Fetal tissue wholesalers pay abortion clinics a "site fee" to place employees, also known as "procurement agents," into abortion clinics to collect various body parts of aborted babies. In return, the employee will have access to all desirable fetal tissue. These agencies then ship the tissue to researchers at pharmaceutical companies, university research laboratories and government agencies. Technically the wholesaler is not paying for the tissue itself, but renting space to harvest the body parts. The abortionist then "donates" the tissue to the wholesaler.

At the other end of the transaction the wholesaler will "donate" the fetal material to researchers but bill them for the cost of retrieval. Thus the business deal is complete.

Life Dynamic's investigation has uncovered two fetal tissue wholesalers. Anatomic Gift Foundation (AGF) began doing business in 1994. Its founders, Jim and Brenda Bardsley, operate from a doublewide trailer near White Oak, Georgia. The location also functions as a catfish farm. AGF's headquarters has been moved to Laurel, Maryland, and Jim Bardsley's brother, Brent, is listed as the executive director. They have additional offices in Colorado and Arizona. Evidence shows that the Phoenix location deals only with adult tissue, but the facility in Aurora, Colorado is located in an abortion clinic called the Mayfair Women's Clinic. The person in charge is a woman named Ying Bei Wang. Representatives of AGF say they also operate in abortion clinics located in the Midwest and on the East Coast. In 1998 the National Abortion Federation listed AGF as a member.

The following is additional information on AGF:

Anatomic Gift Foundation
96 Satilla Drive
White Oak, GA 31568.
Phone (912) 576-5889
Fax (912) 576-3727

September Newsletter, 1999

Cheri · 11-30-2007, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

It could be organ donation to save people's life.

Nobody cannot donate anyone's organs without the wish to be an organ and tissue donor before a crisis occurs. They can register to be a donor. They also have a choice which they wish to donate.

Kalista · 11-30-2007, 10:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

It could be organ donation to save people's life.

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Originally Posted by RebaNo, they weren't used for organ donation to save a life.

Why you said this ? My husband's organs corneal and veins. Corneal went to Jordon young male's eyes. Veins goes to 74 yrs old woman in N.C. That what I got a letter from New England Organs. 74 yrs old woman's heart replacement a new veins (save her life).

Reba · 11-30-2007, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalista

No, they weren't used for organ donation to save a life.

Why you said this ? My husband's organs corneal and veins. Corneal went to Jordon young male's eyes. Veins goes to 74 yrs old woman in N.C. That what I got a letter from New England Organs. 74 yrs old woman's heart replacement a new veins (save her life).

They don't used aborted fetal organs for transplant. They are too small, not fully developed, and often damaged from the abortion procedure.

Reba · 11-30-2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Nobody cannot donate anyone's organs without the wish to be an organ and tissue donor before a crisis occurs. They can register to be a donor. They also have a choice which they wish to donate.

The bodies of minor children can also be donated by the parents but the parents must be fully informed and give consent. Women in abortion clinics don't get full disclosure, so they can't make an informed choice.

Cheri · 11-30-2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalista

Why you said this ? My husband's organs corneal and veins. Corneal went to Jordon young male's eyes. Veins goes to 74 yrs old woman in N.C. That what I got a letter from New England Organs. 74 yrs old woman's heart replacement a new veins (save her life).

Your husband might have been a registered donor, did you ever checked his driver's license? It should appears there.

Cheri · 11-30-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The bodies of minor children can also be donated by the parents but the parents must be fully informed and give consent..

Right, If a child is not legally to give consent a parent can give their consent to have their child's organ to be donate. I've seen it happen from time to time.

Kalista · 11-30-2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Nobody cannot donate anyone's organs without the wish to be an organ and tissue donor before a crisis occurs. They can register to be a donor. They also have a choice which they wish to donate.

My husband did not put anything organs donation on his driver license. That day, he died. New England Organs called me and my mother in law. It was very difficult for us to make the decision to donation health of Andrew's organs in such last minutes. We must decide before 24 hours because of the body became dry and abnormal of organs to be donation to other people's body part. All of those organs must in freeze and chemical to keep them stabilization.

It took us to think about for six hours. Of course, it broke our hearts to think about bury all of those healthy. I know, Andrew wanted to help other people's need.

Know what, they ask for his arms, ears, legs, etc... We were so flabbergasted, I almost vomited when my mother in law interpreter over the phone. My two sons and I were horrible to think about those stuffs.

It was nice of New England Organs to let me know that other country Jordon and NC people received Andrew's organs. They are so appreciated of our willing in last minutes.

That what I discussed those issues during Grief and Recovery presentation at the Deaf conference. Many peo

11-29-2007, 07:49 PM	#661 (permalink)
Reba Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 17,595	Peter Singer also says: "...When the death of a disabled infant will lead to the birth of another infant with better prospects of a happy life, the total amount of happiness will be greater if the disabled infant is killed. The loss of happy life for the first infant is outweighed by the gain of a happier life for the second. Therefore, if killing the haemophiliac infant has no adverse effect on others, it would, according to the total view, be right to kill him..." Excerpted from Practical Ethics, 2nd edition, Cambridge, 1993, pp. 175-217

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