Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice? - Page 17

Barbaro · 07-04-2007, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caseferter

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Foxrac · 07-04-2007, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caseferter

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morbid-mongoose · 07-13-2007, 02:40 PM

I'm pro-choice. It's each woman's personal decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath

I am pro-life because I am living proof my mom said no to an abortion and here I am today.

She had the choice and she didn't. Just because the option of abortion is avaliable doesn't mean that everyone's going to use it.

Liebling:-))) · 11-07-2007, 05:38 AM

Women die after Nicaragua's ban on abortions

Law won't allow the procedure even when mother's life is at stake

updated 6:53 p.m. ET Nov. 6, 2007

Quote:

MANAGUA, Nicaragua - Two weeks after Olga Reyes danced at her wedding, her bloated and disfigured body was laid to rest in an open coffin — the victim, her husband and some experts say, of Nicaragua’s new no-exceptions ban on abortion.

Reyes, a 22-year-old law student, suffered an ectopic pregnancy. The fetus develops outside the uterus, cannot survive and causes bleeding that endangers the mother. But doctors seemed afraid to treat her because of the anti-abortion law, said husband Agustin Perez. By the time they took action, it was too late.

Nicaragua last year became one of 35 countries that ban all abortions, even to save the life of the mother, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights in New York. The ban has been strictly followed, leaving the country torn between a strong tradition of women’s rights and a growing religious conservatism. Abortion rights groups have stormed Congress in recent weeks demanding change, but President Daniel Ortega, a former leftist revolutionary and a Roman Catholic, has refused to oppose the church-supported ban.

Evangelical groups and the church say abortion is never needed now because medical advances solve the complications that might otherwise put a pregnant mother’s life at risk.

But at least three women have died because of the ban, and another 12 reported cases will be examined, said gynecologist and university researcher Eliette Valladares, who is working with the Pan American Health Organization to analyze deaths of pregnant women recorded by Nicaragua’s Health Ministry.

Before the ban took effect on Nov. 18, 2006, fewer than a dozen legal abortions were recorded per year in Nicaragua. They were performed only when three doctors agreed a woman’s life was in danger. However, the Roman Catholic Church estimates that doctors and other medical staff carried out about 36,000 “secret” abortions a year, because under the old law they had little fear of government reprisals.

Hemorrhaging most common cause of death

This year the Health Ministry has recorded 84 deaths of pregnant women between January and October, compared with 89 for all of last year and 88 the year before. It listed hemorrhaging as the most common cause, with 27 cases reported. The ministry refused to comment further on the ban.

Abortion rights groups have disrupted Congress several times, demanding that lawmakers lift the ban. On Oct. 25, unable to get past increased security, they held up signs at Congress’ front door that read: “Women assassins” and “They want to keep us quiet and dead.” A minority of lawmakers are still trying to lift the ban, but don’t have enough votes.

The Roman Catholic Church mobilized nearly 300,000 people to march and sign petitions in support of the ban.

“A child is not a sickness,” said Henry Romero, a priest who helped lead the campaign. “When two lives are in danger, you must try to save both the woman and the child. It’s difficult to say now that it isn’t possible to save both.”

Law student Reyes was one of the three confirmed fatalities. She knew something was horribly wrong, and went with her husband to their small town’s medical center. They were sent to Bertha Calderon maternity hospital, more than an hour away in Managua. There, Perez said, Reyes was given a cursory exam, sent home and told to return the next day.

By that time, the bleeding and cramping were worse. Perez said he rushed her to a hospital in nearby Leon, but after she had an ultrasound that confirmed her condition, they left her bent over and in agony for hours in a waiting room. When a doctor at a shift change saw her condition, she was rushed into surgery. She suffered three heart attacks and an exploratory surgery.

Valladares said doctors should have acted quicker.

“They knew she had a limited amount of time before she bled out. The whole world knows that with an ectopic pregnancy,” Valladares said. “They didn’t treat her, out of fear.”

The hospital director, Olga Maria de Chavez, said Reyes arrived late at night, and was told to return the next morning when specialists were available. The doctors who handled her case in Leon refused to talk to The Associated Press.

Walter Mendiata, president of Nicaragua’s Association of Gynecologists and a supporter of the abortion ban, said doctors are taking the new law too far. He argues that surgery for an ectopic pregnancy isn’t the same as carrying out an abortion.

“There’s no discussion in a case like that,” he said. “It’s urgent, and you operate.”

But he acknowledged that many doctors fear they will be accused of performing an abortion, which could mean a license suspension and several years in prison, even though no one has yet been prosecuted.

Some doctors privately admit to carrying out what they believe are illegal procedures, while others say they won’t jeopardize their careers.

“Many are thinking that instead of taking the risk, it is better to let a woman die,” said Dr. Leonel Arguello, president of the Nicaraguan Society of General Medicine.

Infections from illegal abortions

Doctors frequently see women coming in with infections, many likely brought on by illegal abortions that they refuse to disclose for fear they might be punished, said Dr. Carla Cerrato. Because the people with some medical training who used to do illegal abortions have disappeared, Cerrato said, women more frequently take drugs or pull the fetus out on their own using wires or other crude objects.

“What we are seeing are complications that before we never saw,” Cerrato said, sitting in the dingy pre-labor room at a crowded public hospital in Managua.

She added that she sees hysterectomies and severe infections that leave women sterile or dead because obstetricians can’t take any action that might harm a living fetus.

“We have to wait until the fetus dies,” she said. “But often, for the woman, it’s too late.”

That appears to be what happened with Reyes. Her aunt, Gioconda Reyes, a devoted Catholic dressed in a worn T-shirt in which Jesus promises eternal life, said the sudden death has changed her views.

“I don’t support abortion to get rid of unwanted pregnancies, but in cases like that of Olga’s, it is necessary,” she said, adding: “How could they let four days pass when every minute was precious? They denied her the right to medical care, to a life.”

Women die after Nicaragua's ban on abortions - Health - MSNBC.com

See?

That's why I support pro-choice and abortion should be legal for important reasons.

PuyoPiyo · 11-07-2007, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Women die after Nicaragua's ban on abortions

Law won't allow the procedure even when mother's life is at stake

updated 6:53 p.m. ET Nov. 6, 2007

Women die after Nicaragua's ban on abortions - Health - MSNBC.com

See?

That's why I support pro-choice and abortion should be legal for important reasons.

Yupp I agree with you, I only support the abortion if it risks mother's life.

GarnetTigerMom · 11-07-2007, 12:46 PM

I believe a woman have a right to choose what to do with her own body. No one can force her to make choice for her. It her body she do want she wants. But speaking of abortions it really not a very easy desicion to make or easy desicion to bring a child into the world. For me, as a single mother, I have no regret bringing my child into the world despite the kind of bad father my child have. A child is innocent for any mistake a adults make. Rape or no rape. But when it health issue then that another issue. But when a child move inside you, I couldn't abort. Because that child is part of me. I have seen some women regret abortions. Abortion can cause lot of scar. So I don't believe or heard a woman have 4 abortion normally I heard 2 to 3 abortion would be limited. Once you have more than one abortions, it be harder to get pregnant or not get pregnant at all. So abortion is the most serious decision for a woman to make. It not an easy choice to make.

Kaitin · 11-07-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarnetTigerMom

I believe a woman have a right to choose what to do with her own body. No one can force her to make choice for her. It her body she do want she wants.

Agree 100%.

PuyoPiyo · 11-07-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaitin

Agree 100%.

Sorry, I disagree. What about the baby's decision inside a woman's stomach? Poor those unexperienced and empty-brain babies got aborted...

It sounds like selfish when a mother said that, no offense.

webexplorer · 11-07-2007, 05:40 PM

If it becomes an anti-abortion law, all women have no right to have an abortion anytime and anywhere.

Let's say that a woman's baby died in her womb. She really cannot have it removed because of the law. It is really illegal for you to think that she has a good reason to have it removed. Her dead baby will be rotten in her womb, and her body will get infected and die from it. That's true sad part.

Please do not make a mistake for you to allow our Congress people to create the law.

That's why we leave to all mothers/fathers to make a choice, and they have their rights. Plus, we have no right to interfere them.

PuyoPiyo · 11-07-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webexplorer

If it becomes an anti-abortion law, all women have no right to have an abortion anytime and anywhere.

Let's say that a woman's baby died in her womb. She really cannot have it removed because of the law. It is really illegal for you to think that she has a good reason to have it removed. Her dead baby will be rotten in her womb, and her body will get infected and die from it. That's true sad part.

Please do not make a mistake for you to allow our Congress people to create the law.

That's why we leave to all mothers/fathers to make a choice, and they have their rights. Plus, we have no right to interfere them.

Well, that's miscarriage... I do support if the baby already die in womb, or the baby risking mother's life inside her womb, or whatever health problem inside her womb. It's not fair to prohibit her from save her life. I do agree with you, but there is many things excluding the miscarriage situation that I don't support such like "can't afford the baby", or "I already have too many kids", or something like that..

GarnetTigerMom · 11-07-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuyoPiyo

Well, that's miscarriage... I do support if the baby already die in womb, or the baby risking mother's life inside her womb, or whatever health problem inside her womb. It's not fair to prohibit her from save her life. I do agree with you, but there is many things excluding the miscarriage situation that I don't support such like "can't afford the baby", or "I already have too many kids", or something like that..

But what if the doctor say her health is at risk? I am pretty sure the doctor would sugery remove a dead child inside the womb it don't just rot away and disappear. Let say, a doctor did a DNA test and gentic test to make sure a child don't have down or missing limbs or mental retardation. And the woman want to abort that or let say the woman have to abort because her doctor says she dying of cancer or lupus. it that fair to bring a child into the world? You have to remember when there a hard tough desicion to make with a doctor,, it really hard thing to do. In life everything is a big risk.

fredfam1 · 11-07-2007, 09:28 PM

Abortion is legal murder. Abortion always stops a beating heart. Once the
baby is conceived its rights must be protected as well. Once a culture
starts to deny protection to its most vunerable, and the ones who are
least able to defend themselves, then it will not be long before they
come after those of us who are disabled. And then how do you define
disabled? Am I not worthy of my existance because I am 40% disabled?
What about people who have something wrong with them other than
being just too small to defend themselves? Are the Deaf next?
This is the heart of abortion.
Once that baby is growing, you have another persons rights to consider.
My rights end at the point where my fist encounters another persons face.
You can not deny one baby its right to exist, simply because it would a
burden for someone else. I speak as someone who was sexually assaulted
and bore a child as a result. My baby was not at fault and if I had not
been able to rise above the situation I would have still given her the
chance to live her life. She was not responsible for being born. And
I was not responsible either. But she was born. And I am glad.

GarnetTigerMom · 11-07-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredfam1

Abortion is legal murder. Abortion always stops a beating heart. Once the
baby is conceived its rights must be protected as well. Once a culture
starts to deny protection to its most vunerable, and the ones who are
least able to defend themselves, then it will not be long before they
come after those of us who are disabled. And then how do you define
disabled? Am I not worthy of my existance because I am 40% disabled?
What about people who have something wrong with them other than
being just too small to defend themselves? Are the Deaf next?
This is the heart of abortion.
Once that baby is growing, you have another persons rights to consider.
My rights end at the point where my fist encounters another persons face.
You can not deny one baby its right to exist, simply because it would a
burden for someone else. I speak as someone who was sexually assaulted
and bore a child as a result. My baby was not at fault and if I had not
been able to rise above the situation I would have still given her the
chance to live her life. She was not responsible for being born. And
I was not responsible either. But she was born. And I am glad.

I can understand to some people is murder, and other people says it's pro-choice. I can't judge a person for their decision for abortion. But if the fetus heart is not working or brain dead,, then doctor would say remove the fetus can't just carrying a dead child inside, so what if the woman have AIDS or HIV? It can pass on to that child so it that fair to a child to be born with aids? I am no saying being handicap is a bad thing but being sexuall assaulted is also serious too if he don't have aids or other dieases that can pass on to that child. It a risk.

Reba · 11-07-2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarnetTigerMom

... what if the woman have AIDS or HIV?

That doesn't need to be a death sentence for the child:

Quote:

Women can transmit HIV to their babies during pregnancy or birth. Approximately one-quarter to one-third of all untreated pregnant women infected with HIV will pass the infection to their babies. HIV also can be spread to babies through the breast milk of mothers infected with the virus. If the mother takes certain drugs during pregnancy, she can significantly reduce the chances that her baby will get infected with HIV. If healthcare providers treat HIV-infected pregnant women and deliver their babies by cesarean section, the chances of the baby being infected can be reduced to a rate of 1 percent. HIV infection of newborns has been almost eradicated in the United States because of appropriate treatment.

A study sponsored by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) in Uganda found a highly effective and safe drug for preventing transmission of HIV from an infected mother to her newborn. Independent studies have also confirmed this finding. This regimen is more affordable and practical than any other examined to date. Results from the study show that a single oral dose of the antiretroviral drug nevirapine (NVP) given to an HIV-infected woman in labor and another to her baby within 3 days of birth reduces the transmission rate of HIV by half compared with a similar short course of AZT (azidothymidine).

HIV Infection and AIDS: An Overview, NIAID Fact Sheet

Reba · 11-07-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarnetTigerMom

... Let say, a doctor did a DNA test and gentic test to make sure a child don't have down or missing limbs or mental retardation.

...or deafness?

Tousi · 11-07-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarnetTigerMom

I can understand to some people is murder, and other people says it's pro-choice. I can't judge a person for their decision for abortion. But if the fetus heart is not working or brain dead,, then doctor would say remove the fetus can't just carrying a dead child inside, so what if the woman have AIDS or HIV? It can pass on to that child so it that fair to a child to be born with aids? I am no saying being handicap is a bad thing but being sexuall assaulted is also serious too if he don't have aids or other dieases that can pass on to that child. It a risk.

If the fetus' heart is not working or if the fetus is brain dead, then it wouldn't be called an abortion anymore, would it?

GarnetTigerMom · 11-07-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

That doesn't need to be a death sentence for the child:

HIV Infection and AIDS: An Overview, NIAID Fact Sheet

Yes, all that fact the website you posted all true. But did not say that the drugs they make for people with AIDS and HIV only help prolong their life to live a little bit longer but not really 100% a cure. So, the cure drug is not yet found yet. They are still fighting a long battle to find a cure just like they are doing for cancer. But I do hope they will find a cure. So if that happen, that would be great. But remember aids and HIV still a death sentence. It don't mean they be living a normal life. I saw a child they did on TV talking about aids. Because his mother was a drug user and passed on to her child. She left the kid and locked up until someone took that sweet 8 year old boy to help him, and learned he had aids and his cells don't look great, his chance to survive were very slim, medication he took didn't work for him. He didn't get a chance to grow up to be a young man. So it sad that most people are still care of kids who have aids and not want to be around them.

webexplorer · 11-07-2007, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredfam1

Abortion is legal murder. Abortion always stops a beating heart. Once the
baby is conceived its rights must be protected as well. Once a culture
starts to deny protection to its most vunerable, and the ones who are
least able to defend themselves, then it will not be long before they
come after those of us who are disabled. And then how do you define
disabled? Am I not worthy of my existance because I am 40% disabled?
What about people who have something wrong with them other than
being just too small to defend themselves? Are the Deaf next?
This is the heart of abortion.
Once that baby is growing, you have another persons rights to consider.
My rights end at the point where my fist encounters another persons face.
You can not deny one baby its right to exist, simply because it would a
burden for someone else. I speak as someone who was sexually assaulted
and bore a child as a result. My baby was not at fault and if I had not
been able to rise above the situation I would have still given her the
chance to live her life. She was not responsible for being born. And
I was not responsible either. But she was born. And I am glad.

You made your own choice. We do not want to interfere your life as long as you are happy what you have made your choice to have a baby or not. That's no law. If it is a law, then you do not have a choice otherwise you will be in a Federal prison with a torment life. That's why we did not want anyone to go to a prison because it's our freedom that we have in our country. We cannot say yes or no because of the conflict issues. I can understand what you mean, but it is the best to leave them alone to make their own choice. We cannot cross their line.

Tousi · 11-07-2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webexplorer

You made your own choice. We do not want to interfere your life as long as you are happy what you have made your choice to have a baby or not. That's no law. If it is a law, then you do not have a choice otherwise you will be in a Federal prison with a torment life. That's why we did not want anyone to go to a prison because it's our freedom that we have in our country. We cannot say yes or no because of the conflict issues. I can understand what you mean, but it is the best to leave them alone to make their own choice. We cannot cross their line.

Fredfam is not interferring with anyone's life ("leave them alone") or crossing any lines; she is expressing her own personal opinion on the matter, duh!

Kaitin · 11-07-2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

If the fetus' heart is not working or if the fetus is brain dead, then it wouldn't be called an abortion anymore, would it?

WARNING: INFORMATION AND LINKS MAYBE UPSETING

Sometimes it would. If the fetus has anencephaly it has no cerebrum - the most advance brain part that thinks. A baby with anencephaly does not have a full working brain and can't have a brain scan (EEG) because the cerebrum is missing (and usually the top of the head, skull, and scalp). So brain dead according to EEG. Some women pregnant with a baby with anencephaly have a abortion. Others delivery early with drugs. Others have the baby without drugs and then wait for the baby to die after birth.

From Anencephaly Awareness:

Anencephaly is known as a neural tube defect. One of the most common occurring in about 1 out of every 1000 pregnancies. It is the failure of the neural tube to close properly resulting in the absence of the major portion of the brain and the top part of the skull. - When the cephalic or head end of the tube fails to close properly, it results in the absence of the major portion of the brain, skull and at times scalp. Infants are born without a fore-brain (the thinking and coordinating area)and are usually blind, deaf, unconcious and are unable to feel pain. Infants may exhibit reflex actions, such as respiration and responses to touch and sound.

From Anencephaly Support Foundation: Management of a Pregnancy With an Anencephalic Baby

Directive 15 of the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Hospitals (3) states "Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is direct abortion." The deliberate termination of pregnancy involving an anencephalic child prior to viability would thus be a direct abortion and therefore morally unacceptable. This is so even though the survival of the viable anencephalic child would typically be only 1-7 days.

Another problem is acardia - a baby without a heart. Usually babies with acardia are a identical twin. One twin has has a normal heart unless damaged because of the sick twin. The sick baby's heart is not working but killing it is abortion.

A relative was pregnant with twins. One baby had acardia. Doctors also thought the baby had anencephaly - instead the baby had microcephaly = a very very small brain. Her religious leader said killing the baby was a abortion. The babies died very early without abortion. For respect and privacy I won't write more. But some problems are worse than imagaination even.

VanG · 11-07-2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaitin

WARNING: INFORMATION AND LINKS MAYBE UPSETING

Sometimes it would. If the fetus has anencephaly it has no cerebrum - the most advance brain part that thinks. A baby with anencephaly does not have a full working brain and can't have a brain scan (EEG) because the cerebrum is missing (and usually the top of the head, skull, and scalp). So brain dead according to EEG. Some women pregnant with a baby with anencephaly have a abortion. Others delivery early with drugs. Others have the baby without drugs and then wait for the baby to die after birth.

From Anencephaly Awareness:

Anencephaly is known as a neural tube defect. One of the most common occurring in about 1 out of every 1000 pregnancies. It is the failure of the neural tube to close properly resulting in the absence of the major portion of the brain and the top part of the skull. - When the cephalic or head end of the tube fails to close properly, it results in the absence of the major portion of the brain, skull and at times scalp. Infants are born without a fore-brain (the thinking and coordinating area)and are usually blind, deaf, unconcious and are unable to feel pain. Infants may exhibit reflex actions, such as respiration and responses to touch and sound.

From Anencephaly Support Foundation: Management of a Pregnancy With an Anencephalic Baby

Directive 15 of the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Hospitals (3) states "Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is direct abortion." The deliberate termination of pregnancy involving an anencephalic child prior to viability would thus be a direct abortion and therefore morally unacceptable. This is so even though the survival of the viable anencephalic child would typically be only 1-7 days.

Another problem is acardia - a baby without a heart. Usually babies with acardia are a identical twin. One twin has has a normal heart unless damaged because of the sick twin. The sick baby's heart is not working but killing it is abortion.

A relative was pregnant with twins. One baby had acardia. Doctors also thought the baby had anencephaly - instead the baby had microcephaly = a very very small brain. Her religious

11-07-2007, 12:46 PM	#486 (permalink)
GarnetTigerMom Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 4,926	I believe a woman have a right to choose what to do with her own body. No one can force her to make choice for her. It her body she do want she wants. But speaking of abortions it really not a very easy desicion to make or easy desicion to bring a child into the world. For me, as a single mother, I have no regret bringing my child into the world despite the kind of bad father my child have. A child is innocent for any mistake a adults make. Rape or no rape. But when it health issue then that another issue. But when a child move inside you, I couldn't abort. Because that child is part of me. I have seen some women regret abortions. Abortion can cause lot of scar. So I don't believe or heard a woman have 4 abortion normally I heard 2 to 3 abortion would be limited. Once you have more than one abortions, it be harder to get pregnant or not get pregnant at all. So abortion is the most serious decision for a woman to make. It not an easy choice to make. __________________ GarnetTigerMom "The rain may be falling hard outside, But your smile makes it all alright. I'm so glad that you're my friend. I know our friendship will never end." -- Robert Alan

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11-07-2007, 05:40 PM	#489 (permalink)
webexplorer I'm listening to everyone Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New England Posts: 3,568	If it becomes an anti-abortion law, all women have no right to have an abortion anytime and anywhere. Let's say that a woman's baby died in her womb. She really cannot have it removed because of the law. It is really illegal for you to think that she has a good reason to have it removed. Her dead baby will be rotten in her womb, and her body will get infected and die from it. That's true sad part. Please do not make a mistake for you to allow our Congress people to create the law. That's why we leave to all mothers/fathers to make a choice, and they have their rights. Plus, we have no right to interfere them.

11-07-2007, 09:28 PM	#492 (permalink)
fredfam1 Cathe Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,023	Abortion is legal murder. Abortion always stops a beating heart. Once the baby is conceived its rights must be protected as well. Once a culture starts to deny protection to its most vunerable, and the ones who are least able to defend themselves, then it will not be long before they come after those of us who are disabled. And then how do you define disabled? Am I not worthy of my existance because I am 40% disabled? What about people who have something wrong with them other than being just too small to defend themselves? Are the Deaf next? This is the heart of abortion. Once that baby is growing, you have another persons rights to consider. My rights end at the point where my fist encounters another persons face. You can not deny one baby its right to exist, simply because it would a burden for someone else. I speak as someone who was sexually assaulted and bore a child as a result. My baby was not at fault and if I had not been able to rise above the situation I would have still given her the chance to live her life. She was not responsible for being born. And I was not responsible either. But she was born. And I am glad.