Selective abortion.

[jillio]

But what about if the people are doing evil things. Surely it is right to speak out. People can say and do what they think. It's not about craming ideas. But when babies of any stage of development are routinely murdered. Surely you wouldn't want that to happen. It's NOT about choice as we are ristricting people's choices by not giving them a chance to live. There is a verse I remember:



So this is why I'm speaking out, even though it's not making me very popular but if I don't speak out and disabled people get wiped out in increasingly larger numbers. One day they might think I'm deafblind so should get knocked off. I would like to speak up on the rights of pre born disabled babies before that happens.

If you don't want the values of others forced down your throat, then you can't force yours down anyone else's throat. It is that simple. And when you "speak out" you presume to speak for those whose opinions and feelings on the matter are something that you don't even know about. You are preseuming that they would feel the same as you, and that is extremely presumptious and arrogant.

As with sex, disability cannot be determined in the first trimester. So your fears about elective abortion being used under laws like Roe V Wade to abort only disabled fetuses or a fetus that is a different sex than the one the parent's desired is irrational. And the U.K. already has laws restricting abortions in the second trimester to those conditions which are life threatening to the mother or the fetus. The U.S. does as well. Your fears and hypothethical situations are nothing more than the product of an oiver active imagination.

 

[jillio]

That is a loaded statement and I refuse to be swayed by it. I have already stated my position. I refuse to debate it with you or anyone else. You DO NOT have the right to tell me what I should do with my body. It's THAT simple! You do, however, have the right to decide for YOURSELF what you will do with YOUR body. If you want to carry a pregnancy to term, wonderful. I applaud you. You made your own choice. Now, allow me to make mine according what it legal in the United States!

And right to the point.

 

[jillio]

Oceanbreeze and jillo.............on the other hand there needs to be much better info out there for disabilty, so that people can have the tools nessary to make the choice in the first place. Most info on disabilty is very negative.
Like there's nothing wrong with ending the pregnancy of a baby who's died in utereo. It's just like pulling the plug on someone who is profoundly injuired.

If a fetus has died in utero, the pregnancy has already ended. The non-viable fetus will be expelled either as a result of miscarraige (early in the pregnancy) or still birth (later in the preganancy).

And disability information really has nothing to do with a woman's right to make decisions regarding her own reproductive health.

 

[jillio]

Exactly. Being disabled isn't the major disadvantage that people make it to be. Our lives are no worse. Just differant.

But there are advantages too. I don't have to work at some boring job all day. I can choose to be a writer. I don't have to fight for my country either. I don't get driven up the wall with noisy neibours because I can't hear them. I also can't hear if someone is being rude to me so my deafness is like a sheild. It protects me.

Is this a thread about a woman's right to make decisions regarding her reproductive health, or is it a thread about disability and social inequalities that exist?

The topics are not one and the same, and in effect, are not interrealted.

 

[jillio]

I don't consider myself as bitter just because I believe I and every other disabled person deserve the rights of life the same as everyone else.



Well in some countries people will cry over the birth of a daughter instead of a son. Should we promote killing female babies too.




If your deaf friend had such low self worth that they think a child like themselves should be killed I would pity them more then anything but I wouldn't believe it morally right to let them kill a baby because of this such a low self estemed. It really depresses me that there are people who feel this way.

I've a friend with RP who is deafblind. She chose to have children knowing they could be blind too because blindness is no big deal and I aplaud her for her decision.




Since you weren't living with us you really don't know what you are talking about.



I will NEVER respect a person who wants to kill her own baby no matter what is wrong with it. I believe in diversity in a society. That includes lots of disabled children being born.

How can we expect respect from those without disabilities if we don't respect ourselves.

And if you believe that disabled persons should be entitled to control over their own lives and the rights afforded to everyone else, for you to believe that a woman should not have the same control over her life and the right to make personal medical decisions regarding her reporductive health is hypocritical. You are asking for yourself the same thing that you are attempting to deny to others: personal control over your life.

Sopt withthe emotional, innacurrate language. No one promotes the killing of a baby. A fetus or an embryo is not a baby, and therefore, abortion is not murder. These contradictions have been pointed out any number of times, and yet you continue to attempt to validate a medical and legal issue with this ridiculous emotional appeal. Likewise with the numerous contradictions in your posts. Yo really need to spend some time solidifying your view point and then backing it up with fact, not with innaccurracies based on emotion. Stop contradicitng yourself, and stop demanding rights for yourself that you woud deny to others.

 

[jillio]

Want to know my honesty ? Sure, I would call you a murderer, if you choose to stay alive over fetus.

Then you would be quilty of liable and slander, because the law would state that she is not a murderer. Are you so secure in your viewpoint that you would be willing to go to court and defend your accusation, and risk becoming responsible for paying the person you have slandered thousands and thousands of dollars? How much are you willing to personally sacrifice to uphold your view?

 

[jillio]

Yes, I am disabled but I am not bitter person. It´s an unfair to use my disablitity to women´s freedom of choice for not want to raise a disabled child.

Why do people criticise women's CHOICE to not want to have a disabled child? Let me tell you the example about my British deaf friend.

My British deaf friend had 2 hearing children in her previous relationship with a deaf man and met another deaf man with all 5 deaf children in his previous marriage. They are not plan to have a baby together because all of their children are teenagers. Surprisely, baby come unexpectly to them. Their child was born and then 6 months later they found out thru test that she is deaf. Guess what, my deaf friend CRIED over her child´s deafness. Why she cried? BECAUSE it´s not about her but her child´s future. She compared her raise hearing children with deaf child and said that it´s work hard to raise a deaf child than hearing child. What she said is TRUE because many deaf and hearing parents said the same thing as what my friend says. Yes, my parents said the same thing as well that´s why they decided to put me to boarding school which is long way from London which they supposed to put me day school in London which I can go home everyday.

Anyway, they thought to have another child to company their deaf child but my friend decided to have gene test to find out either her another child would also deaf or not... The gene test result comes and said that their another child will likely deaf. My friend decided to not have another deaf child.

Would you criticize anyone´s choice to accuse them as discrimination, etc like what I just told you about my British deaf friend here?

I would NEVER criticize anyone including my deaf British friend´s choice to have a disabled child or not because it´s THEIR choice, not mine.






This is a denial post, I ever read here. It sound that you assume it? Why you said "I don´t think........." Did you asked your parents how difference raise between disabled and normal child?

Of course I asked my parents about this... Yes, they admitted the difference raise between disabled and normal child. No wonder, why they put me at boarding school long way from London instead of school for the deaf in London then I can go home everyday.

The fact is raise a disabled or problematic child is more work hard than raise a normal child. I know what I am saying because of difference raise between my oldest son´s problematic and my youngest son´s normal development. Thanks to therapies to develop my oldest son´s problematic behavior for years... His problematic behavior improves before he become is teenager and hit puberty. My son is soon to be 16 years old now.





The people should RESPECT every women´s freedom of choice and keep your thoughts and mean remarks to yourself!!!

She is attempting to appeal to your emotion by bringing in topics that have nothing to do with a woman's right to choose. That is because she has no facts to back up her emotional position. It is an often used game that the anti-abortionists use to try to hide the fact that they are violating the legal right of every woman to make this decision for herself.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Oceanbreeze and jillo.............on the other hand there needs to be much better info out there for disabilty, so that people can have the tools nessary to make the choice in the first place. Most info on disabilty is very negative.
Like there's nothing wrong with ending the pregnancy of a baby who's died in utereo. It's just like pulling the plug on someone who is profoundly injuired.

I agree with you there needs to be better info regarding disabilities. That still doesn't negate the fact that a woman has a right to decide for herself how she is going to proceed with a pregnancy. That right should continued irrespective of information regarding fetal anomoly.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

But you are disabled too. How can you say such a thing? I don't understand. How can disabled people want other disabled people to be discriminated against in this way. It makes me feel so sad when disabled people don't unit with other disabled people and stop this murder of children.

All children are hard work. I don't think I caused my parents that much more bother then my bother did who is not disabled. Some disabled children can give their parents far more pleasure as they don't do drugs or go into crime. I notice the number of pro abortion ANTI BABY CHOICE people who just attack the source without even thinking. Does it hurt too much to think. Are you just that brainwashed? It makes me want to be sick.

You are so mixed up. How can I have the position that I do? It's simple. By analyzing the life I've led and having enough compassion for the child I may carry who may also have spina bifida (or God forbid some other fatal anomaly.) That statement right there tells me you don't know much. People aren't immune to troubles simply because we're disabled. Case in point: My chilldhood sweetheart (born with spina bifida) got involved with drugs and committed suicide in 1995.

I will find links for this later, but the rate of mental and emotional issues is actually increased for someone who is disabled. Life with a disablity is very challenging and it's not always the bowl of cherries people think it is. They see the sweet, loveable downs child, and they don't stop to realize that that child also has severe medical complications such as cardiac issues.

Pro life people are so self righteous, but they aren't realistic. Spend a week with someone with a disabilty, and you may see the struggles that person goes through. Hopefully, you'll change your tune.

 

[KarissaMann05]

But in this case, you are talking about people who have, by all definition, achieved life. An embryo has not achieved life and is not capable of independent existence. Therefore, it is not viable, and cannot be compared to that which is viable and living independent life. One is a living being, the other has potential to become a living being. Potential is not the same as is.

I respectfully disagreed with what you said. Hey, it is only an example... Sighs... Okay, let me try you ask the same question with a different one... once more again...

Before you knew your child's life, you dont know that you are one-month pregnant. That's mean you DON'T know who your child is, nor her/his lifestyle look like is. Cos you don't know what happen in between your future and this child's future, right? You may have a little care for this child when you are in a such situation...

So which do you really think what more importance life is a child or you?

So, do you get it what I mean? No?

 

[Oceanbreeze]

I respectfully disagreed with what you said. Hey, it is only an example... Sighs... Okay, let me try you ask the same question with a different one... once more again...

Before you knew your child's life, you dont know that you are one-month pregnant. That's mean you DON'T know who your child is, nor her/his lifestyle look like is. Cos you don't know what happen in between your future and this child's future, right? You may have a little care for this child when you are in a such situation...

So which do you really think what more importance life is a child or you?

So, do you get it what I mean? No?

Mine. An embryo or fetus is sustained by the woman's body until gestation is complete. Once born, the fetus becomes a child. Until then, it is solely dependant on the woman to keep it viable. If a pregnancy is threatening my life, I would consider ending that pregnancy to save my own life. A woman's life supercedes that of the fetus.

 

[KarissaMann05]

I am glad you know what I mean.

With that reason, it is how I see that way.

 

[Maria]

Then you would be quilty of liable and slander, because the law would state that she is not a murderer. Are you so secure in your viewpoint that you would be willing to go to court and defend your accusation, and risk becoming responsible for paying the person you have slandered thousands and thousands of dollars? How much are you willing to personally sacrifice to uphold your view?

Huh ? I don't think you understand my view. It has nothin' to do with slander or liable. It has to do with my VIEW the way I see it fits. It's all about " takin' a fetus' life away " or " killin' fetus " and, that's murder to me. That fetus has no voice to speak against which I think it is not fair. I would say that way I see a mother or woman bein' selfish to save her own life by gettin' rid of fetus. I would say that it is the only way out to save one self's guilty. I have the right to voice my view and say my pieces here. I support fetus than mother or woman if, her life can not be saved.

And, again - you and I don't have the same views. We don't have the same conceptions in our opinions. You may say somethin' what you view it and I may say mine as well.

 

[Byrdie714]

Huh ? I don't think you understand my view. It has nothin' to do with slander or liable. It has to do with my VIEW the way I see it fits. It's all about " takin' a fetus' life away " or " killin' fetus " and, that's murder to me. That fetus has no voice to speak against which I think it is not fair. I would say that way I see a mother or woman bein' selfish to save her own life by gettin' rid of fetus. I would say that it is the only way out to save one self's guilty. I have the right to voice my view and say my pieces here. I support fetus than mother or woman if, her life can not be saved.

And, again - you and I don't have the same views. We don't have the same conceptions in our opinions. You may say somethin' what you view it and I may say mine as well.

But the fetus doesn't have a spirit.

 

[Maria]

But the fetus doesn't have a spirit.

It's not a spirit. It's a soul.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Okay... So, is really that disabled child's life much worth ending in the attempt to make another's life much easier, is that correct? Is really that much easy if there are no disabled people in the Earth, right? I think 'normal' people probably think so... well, the disabled child is an effect, a disabled child should not be considered as a low human being as if they are not valued... Hey, it's just my POV, that's all. Peace.

 

[Byrdie714]

It's not a spirit. It's a soul.

How do you know if it has it or not?

 

[Foxrac]

It's not a spirit. It's a soul.

Fetus don't have soul either, what matters with fetus and religion.

Call mother who abort the fetus to save the life an murderer is immoral and illogical, again, WHO CARES? I don't give a damn about fetus being soul or spirit in your views.

 

[Foxrac]

How do you know if it has it or not?

It's her religion views, nothing is special.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Okay... So, is really that disabled child's life much worth ending in the attempt to make another's life much easier, is that correct? Is really that much easy if there are no disabled people in the Earth, right? I think 'normal' people probably think so... well, the disabled child is an effect, a disabled child should not be considered as a low human being as if they are not valued... Hey, it's just my POV, that's all. Peace.

If that's the way you see it, then OK. But, I am disabled, so I think I have a much better idea of what life is like for someone like me. When a fetus is suspected of having an anomaly, all the Dr can do is give projections of how severely affected the fetus will be. It is then up to the woman to weigh the implications of her decision either to continue the pregnancy or to terminate it. Only SHE has the right to make that decision. Nobody has the right to decide that for her, and that is what anti abortion advocates are trying to do. They are trying to tell me and others like me what is right for me, and I am fundamentally opposed to that.