Selective abortion.

[Oceanbreeze]

But what about if the people are doing evil things. Surely it is right to speak out. People can say and do what they think. It's not about craming ideas. But when babies of any stage of development are routinely murdered. Surely you wouldn't want that to happen. It's NOT about choice as we are ristricting people's choices by not giving them a chance to live. There is a verse I remember:



So this is why I'm speaking out, even though it's not making me very popular but if I don't speak out and disabled people get wiped out in increasingly larger numbers. One day they might think I'm deafblind so should get knocked off. I would like to speak up on the rights of pre born disabled babies before that happens.

That is a loaded statement and I refuse to be swayed by it. I have already stated my position. I refuse to debate it with you or anyone else. You DO NOT have the right to tell me what I should do with my body. It's THAT simple! You do, however, have the right to decide for YOURSELF what you will do with YOUR body. If you want to carry a pregnancy to term, wonderful. I applaud you. You made your own choice. Now, allow me to make mine according what it legal in the United States!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Many people are confused about what "partial birth abortion" actually is. The anti-abortion crowd has led others to believe that the baby is actually cut into sections, and then the sections are removed. That is not true. Partial birth abortion is actually called "D & X" standing for "dialation and extraction." Here is a description of the procedure:

The term was first coined by the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) in 1995 to describe a recently introduced medical procedure to remove fetuses from the womb. Alternately known as "dilation and extraction," or D&X, and "intact D&E," it involves removing the fetus intact by dilating a pregnant woman's cervix, then pulling the entire body out through the birth canal.

The further along a pregnancy is, the more complicated -- and the more controversial -- the procedures are for aborting it. Abortions performed after the 20th week of pregnancy typically require that the fetus be dismembered inside the womb so it can be removed without damaging the pregnant woman's cervix. Some gynecologists consider such methods, known as "dilation and evacuation," less than ideal because they can involve substantial blood loss and may increase the risk of lacerating the cervix, potentially undermining the woman's ability to bear children in the future.

Two abortion physicians, one in Ohio and one in California, independently developed variations on the method by extracting the fetus intact. The Ohio physician, Martin Haskell, called his method "dilation and extraction," or D&X. It involved dilating the woman's cervix, then pulling the fetus through it feet first until only the head remained inside. Using scissors or another sharp instrument, the head was then punctured, and the skull compressed, so it, too, could fit through the dilated cervix.


'Partial-Birth Abortion:' Separating Fact from Spin : NPR

The procedure does not involve mutilation of the fetus. However, there is a procedure that does, and when the U.S. outlawed the D & X procedure, doctors were still free to perform the procdure that dismembers the fetus. This procedure is much more risky to the mother than D & X.

So, you can see that when the anti-abortion crowd talks about D & X, they have given it a name intended to create an emotional response, and they have also lied about the actual procedure to make people feel horrified unneccesarily. And all that was achieved by outlawing the procedure was that doctors can no longer perform a procedure that is safer and more humane than the one they are left with. The anti-abortionists actually created a situation whereby the most humane procedure was outlawed in favor of the less humane procedure.

And, we must keep in mind, the abortions performed at the stage of the pregnancy when a D & X would be required are done in the case of threats to the health of the mother or the fetus. It is a medical decision between a woman and her physician. And now, physicians have been prevented from offering the woman a more humane, safer, less traumatic medical procedure simply because a few wish to make a decision for all, even when the decision does not affect them in any way.

for positive post and also link as well.

Yes I thought partial birth abortion means is cut fetus´s body into pieces like what I saw pictures in abortion debate threads. I know for a long time if woman decides to not raise a disabled child or do not want to give her risk life up for a fetus, then do with CS birth. Yes I know they do mostly with CS birth than virginal birth... The word of "partial-birth abortion" got me nightmare in several abortion debate threads because of cut fetus´s body into pieces.

I know a little about D&X procedure and find interesting but I am wondering why can´t they do with CS birth instead of virginal birth if they know it´s risk?

again for convince me what word of partial birth abortion is about.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Funny you should bring this up. My Mother was in such a position. The situation was a bit different, but not much. I was born with a hole in my spine. A condition called spina bifida. This is something that causes life long issues for the baby. Treatment includes the immediate closure of the back to prevent deadly infections. My Mother was young and didn't know what to do. Her Dr was pro-life and told her "If you don't consent to treatment for your baby and she dies, you will have murdered her..." That's an exact quote. Mom told me the story when I was nearly in my 20s. She DIDN'T know what to do. She chose to consent to surgery and here I am.

Before I go any further, let me say I am grateful for her decision. How could I not be? But, at the same time, that Dr is the REASON I am for choice today. That Dr had NO business interjecting her own agenda into the situation. My Mother was young and scared. She should have had an unbiased person helping her to decide what to do, and she didn't. I am saddened at that.

Nobody has the right to pressure a woman into making a decision; even if that decision means death to a sickly infant (either before or after birth).

for share your post here and explain the reason why you beleive in choice. It´s sad to read your mother´s experience with the doctor.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I am not talkin' about REMEMBER. I am talkin' about how he would FEEL in his own reality, if it were his mother who decides not to keep him.... it doesn't matter, if it wasn't for his mother - it could be ANY mother who could give birth of him. Suppose if, his mother could NOT afford or was raped by someone else or somethin' that she could not keep him for ANY reason, HOW would he FEEL about bein' aborted by his own mother ? It would MAKE him " unimportant " because he was UNLOVED and UNWANTED. Why would someone throw a fetus away ?

Well, you talked about feeling and I talked about remember... Okay, I am going to response your post about FEELING, not remember...

Question about feeling...

Would you tell your child that you thought about abort him/her? If your answer is yes then is your responsiblity for lead your child beleive that he/she is unloved and unwanted.

Never, never, never make a child feel unwanted and unloved if you told him/her about your abortion plan when you was pregnant with him/her.

I was unexpected to have 2nd child because I want to wait bit longer... I would never tell my 2nd son that he is an unexpected child because it make him feel that I do not wish to have him... All what I told him that we planned to have 2nd child but he came surprisely like a gift to us. He smiled and said that he is a miracle child...

And my point about remember... nobody remember as fetus what mothers want them or not because they do not have any experience and memory as fetus...

Don't you realize that every agency have a better access for all disabled persons ? Deaf babies could get hearing aids or CI to help learning how to speak. There are some actors who are Down's Syndrome...some of them are painists. Every child is an investment to its parents in despite of their handicapped or what ever. There's many accesible for disabled persons every where and even, tty for deaf persons, too. Hearing people can help them.

I beleive that I did said many times before that I am against abortion for no reasons.

My point is RESPECT women´s choice either they want to keep disabled children or not.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

But you are disabled too. How can you say such a thing? I don't understand. How can disabled people want other disabled people to be discriminated against in this way. It makes me feel so sad when disabled people don't unit with other disabled people and stop this murder of children.

Yes, I am disabled but I am not bitter person. It´s an unfair to use my disablitity to women´s freedom of choice for not want to raise a disabled child.

Why do people criticise women's CHOICE to not want to have a disabled child? Let me tell you the example about my British deaf friend.

My British deaf friend had 2 hearing children in her previous relationship with a deaf man and met another deaf man with all 5 deaf children in his previous marriage. They are not plan to have a baby together because all of their children are teenagers. Surprisely, baby come unexpectly to them. Their child was born and then 6 months later they found out thru test that she is deaf. Guess what, my deaf friend CRIED over her child´s deafness. Why she cried? BECAUSE it´s not about her but her child´s future. She compared her raise hearing children with deaf child and said that it´s work hard to raise a deaf child than hearing child. What she said is TRUE because many deaf and hearing parents said the same thing as what my friend says. Yes, my parents said the same thing as well that´s why they decided to put me to boarding school which is long way from London which they supposed to put me day school in London which I can go home everyday.

Anyway, they thought to have another child to company their deaf child but my friend decided to have gene test to find out either her another child would also deaf or not... The gene test result comes and said that their another child will likely deaf. My friend decided to not have another deaf child.

Would you criticize anyone´s choice to accuse them as discrimination, etc like what I just told you about my British deaf friend here?

I would NEVER criticize anyone including my deaf British friend´s choice to have a disabled child or not because it´s THEIR choice, not mine.

All children are hard work. I don't think I caused my parents that much more bother then my bother did who is not disabled. Some disabled children can give their parents far more pleasure as they don't do drugs or go into crime.

This is a denial post, I ever read here. It sound that you assume it? Why you said "I don´t think........." Did you asked your parents how difference raise between disabled and normal child?

Of course I asked my parents about this... Yes, they admitted the difference raise between disabled and normal child. No wonder, why they put me at boarding school long way from London instead of school for the deaf in London then I can go home everyday.

The fact is raise a disabled or problematic child is more work hard than raise a normal child. I know what I am saying because of difference raise between my oldest son´s problematic and my youngest son´s normal development. Thanks to therapies to develop my oldest son´s problematic behavior for years... His problematic behavior improves before he become is teenager and hit puberty. My son is soon to be 16 years old now.

I notice the number of pro abortion ANTI BABY CHOICE people who just attack the source without even thinking. Does it hurt too much to think. Are you just that brainwashed? It makes me want to be sick.

The people should RESPECT every women´s freedom of choice and keep your thoughts and mean remarks to yourself!!!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Yes, I've known plenty of people with downs syndrome and I think they can be really lovely people.

Some responses I've been getting here make me feel so sad. It's like you think that killing is ok. It's like you've all been brain washed. Isn't there any way at all of making people think. Yet if you tell people of baby getting murdered after birth they want mother to get killed and very angry but only a few months earlier. A few weeks earlier and it's considered ok because it was 'the mother's choice'

The more I hear the term 'pro choice' the more I hate the very term. I hate the way in which murder can EVER be considered as anything other then Murder.

How even disabled people will think it's perfectly ok for other disabled people to get killed because of this loaded claptrap that the pro abortionists spew out.

THEY ARE NOT FOR CHOICE because a Dead baby will NEVER have ANY choices whatsoever. They are gone. Murdered.

I feel so sickened and upset by all this.

Would you call me as a murderer if I choose to stay alive for my family´s sake over fetus?

 

[deafdyke]

Oceanbreeze and jillo.............on the other hand there needs to be much better info out there for disabilty, so that people can have the tools nessary to make the choice in the first place. Most info on disabilty is very negative.
Like there's nothing wrong with ending the pregnancy of a baby who's died in utereo. It's just like pulling the plug on someone who is profoundly injuired.

 

[dreama]

I find it to be a greater evil in, knowingly, introducing a greatly decapitated person into society than to, unknowingly, introduce. This is an abortion issue? To me, it's a human issue. Would you throw a child, handcuffed, into the water and demand, "Sink or swim!"?

Those who parade theirselves to be "pro-life" would want a person to have that kind of life . . . handcuffed and in the water. Why? So that they have conversation fodder? Those who declare "pro-choice" would narrow their arguement upon womens' right. For me, it's a human decision: a better life would be found through those who really cared in the first place.

For a disabled person yourself you seem to have a very negative view on disabilites. It is so very depressing. So would you rather be dead? Have you even bothered to read the articles? You need to educate yourself on this issue if you think that people would rather die then face a few extra challanges in life.

I've met a lot of disabled people as I went to a special school for the disabled. Also some disabled clubs and I worked at one time at a day centre for the disabled as a maseur. I've met people with Downs syndrome and spina bifida who often get aborted. These humans are only discriminated by the attitudes that the none disabled have. Same as with deaf people.

So yes saving disabled people's lives is the humane thing to do because then they have a chance for life. I am deafblind. I also suffer a lot of migraines and eye pain. Hoever I am VERY VERY glad that my parents decided not to murder me at birth even though my life hasn't always been a bed of roses. I'm so glad to be alive and don't believe I have a lesser life then my brother who is normal. I just have a Differant life. That is all. I only ever feel like I am "hancuffed and drowning" is when I read so many people with attitudes like yours who would rather I was dead just because I'm disabled.

Of all the disabled people I have ever met I have NEVER met one that I would consider better off dead. In fact there is an organisation called 'not dead yet' who campaign against Euthanasia for the disabled. Have a look there too and see if you still hold your believes that we should all be killed as the 'humane' thing to do.

Living with Dignity - Not Dead Yet UK Campaign

Not Dead Yet News & Commentary

 

[dreama]

Yes, I am disabled but I am not bitter person. It´s an unfair to use my disablitity to women´s freedom of choice for not want to raise a disabled child.

I don't consider myself as bitter just because I believe I and every other disabled person deserve the rights of life the same as everyone else.

Why do people criticise women's CHOICE to not want to have a disabled child? Let me tell you the example about my British deaf friend.

My British deaf friend had 2 hearing children in her previous relationship with a deaf man and met another deaf man with all 5 deaf children in his previous marriage. They are not plan to have a baby together because all of their children are teenagers. Surprisely, baby come unexpectly to them. Their child was born and then 6 months later they found out thru test that she is deaf. Guess what, my deaf friend CRIED over her child´s deafness.

Well in some countries people will cry over the birth of a daughter instead of a son. Should we promote killing female babies too.

I would NEVER criticize anyone including my deaf British friend´s choice to have a disabled child or not because it´s THEIR choice, not mine.

If your deaf friend had such low self worth that they think a child like themselves should be killed I would pity them more then anything but I wouldn't believe it morally right to let them kill a baby because of this such a low self estemed. It really depresses me that there are people who feel this way.

I've a friend with RP who is deafblind. She chose to have children knowing they could be blind too because blindness is no big deal and I aplaud her for her decision.

This is a denial post, I ever read here. It sound that you assume it? Why you said "I don´t think........." Did you asked your parents how difference raise between disabled and normal child?

Since you weren't living with us you really don't know what you are talking about.

The people should RESPECT every women´s freedom of choice and keep your thoughts and mean remarks to yourself!!!

I will NEVER respect a person who wants to kill her own baby no matter what is wrong with it. I believe in diversity in a society. That includes lots of disabled children being born.

How can we expect respect from those without disabilities if we don't respect ourselves.

 

[dreama]

Oceanbreeze and jillo.............on the other hand there needs to be much better info out there for disabilty, so that people can have the tools nessary to make the choice in the first place. Most info on disabilty is very negative.

Exactly. Being disabled isn't the major disadvantage that people make it to be. Our lives are no worse. Just differant.

But there are advantages too. I don't have to work at some boring job all day. I can choose to be a writer. I don't have to fight for my country either. I don't get driven up the wall with noisy neibours because I can't hear them. I also can't hear if someone is being rude to me so my deafness is like a sheild. It protects me.

 

[Foxrac]

I have agree with jillio, Liebling and OB.

I'm pro-choice, I'm favor into choice of abortion or keep it, it's all up to woman that based on their choice, I don't agree about Roe v. Wade need overturn and let states to make decision to ban it, it would make more worse, such as increase of illegal abortion and more dead mothers, there's pill to kill fetus/newborn, that's recent technology for illegal abortion, it's still existing in USA but much more worse in other countries when abortion is restricted or banned.

I do understand about some people who are pro-life and concern about abortion, only woman's choice is come at first, if when ban on it then it's violate of woman's rights of choice and personal. There's nothing as I do but if any healthy women who got unwanted pregnant so accidently then suppose to be give for adoption, it's depends on situation, it's different based on individual.

 

[Maria]

Would you call me as a murderer if I choose to stay alive for my family´s sake over fetus?

Want to know my honesty ? Sure, I would call you a murderer, if you choose to stay alive over fetus.

 

[Babyblue]

Want to know my honesty ? Sure, I would call you a murderer, if you choose to stay alive over fetus.

A fetus can not survive with out the mother. If the mothers life is compromised so is the fetus.

Therefore in reality the mother actually had no choice to choose her life over the fetus. Abortion then is the right choice. Why lose two lives.

I am pro choice

 

[jillio]

But you are disabled too. How can you say such a thing? I don't understand. How can disabled people want other disabled people to be discriminated against in this way. It makes me feel so sad when disabled people don't unit with other disabled people and stop this murder of children.

All children are hard work. I don't think I caused my parents that much more bother then my bother did who is not disabled. Some disabled children can give their parents far more pleasure as they don't do drugs or go into crime.

I notice the number of pro abortion ANTI BABY CHOICE people who just attack the source without even thinking. Does it hurt too much to think. Are you just that brainwashed? It makes me want to be sick.

Children are not being murdered. Embryos are being aborted. Big difference.

Where do you come up with these statements? Chidlren with disabilities make up the largest portion of the juvenile offender population, and a very large protion of the adult prison population also has one or more documented disabilities. You really need to get your facts straight, and stop relying on myth. The only brainwashing I see going on is the misrepresentation of fact and outright lies being told by the anti-abortionists.

Idon't understand how you, as a disabled person who does not want the non-disabled population making decisions about your life feel perfectly justified in doing it to others. That is nothing short of hypocritical.

 

[jillio]

A fetus can not survive with out the mother. If the mothers life is compromised so is the fetus.

Therefore in reality the mother actually had no choice to choose her life over the fetus. Abortion then is the right choice. Why lose two lives.

I am pro choice

Excellent post. And your facts are correct.

 

[jillio]

I have agree with jillio, Liebling and OB.

I'm pro-choice, I'm favor into choice of abortion or keep it, it's all up to woman that based on their choice, I don't agree about Roe v. Wade need overturn and let states to make decision to ban it, it would make more worse, such as increase of illegal abortion and more dead mothers, there's pill to kill fetus/newborn, that's recent technology for illegal abortion, it's still existing in USA but much more worse in other countries when abortion is restricted or banned.

I do understand about some people who are pro-life and concern about abortion, only woman's choice is come at first, if when ban on it then it's violate of woman's rights of choice and personal. There's nothing as I do but if any healthy women who got unwanted pregnant so accidently then suppose to be give for adoption, it's depends on situation, it's different based on individual.

 

[jillio]

Yes, I've known plenty of people with downs syndrome and I think they can be really lovely people.

Some responses I've been getting here make me feel so sad. It's like you think that killing is ok. It's like you've all been brain washed. Isn't there any way at all of making people think. Yet if you tell people of baby getting murdered after birth they want mother to get killed and very angry but only a few months earlier. A few weeks earlier and it's considered ok because it was 'the mother's choice'

The more I hear the term 'pro choice' the more I hate the very term. I hate the way in which murder can EVER be considered as anything other then Murder.

How even disabled people will think it's perfectly ok for other disabled people to get killed because of this loaded claptrap that the pro abortionists spew out.

THEY ARE NOT FOR CHOICE because a Dead baby will NEVER have ANY choices whatsoever. They are gone. Murdered.

I feel so sickened and upset by all this.

You have been brainwashed into believing that potential for life is the same thing as life. And that a cluster of cells in any way resembles a baby. You really need to stop believing all the myth and learn a few facts.

Murder can only happen if life has been taken. You yourself stated that you don't know when life begins. If life has not begun, murder has not occurred. Please stop contradicting yourself.

 

[jillio]

Jillio -

If it is a reverse question, my answer is still same if it is really happen... You never know, it is a lot of better or worse if a half of us may not be here. A half of non-existence people may be "here", and their "lives" could be much better than us or could be much worse than us. It is a same thing. Like you said, NO ONE knew what happen to those future people, "what if" things in past situations, and us.

Life is life, let it be.

I meant, for only an example, if you are trapped in a massive fire building with an unfamiliar stranger and could not get out. Another person is willing to rescuse only one way - this person personally knew this stranger and his/her life very well, but this person know so much nothing about you because s/he and you never meet each other. This person comes in and the person must make a quick desicion to choice only one optional of two; that stranger and you. The rescuser may have a little care about you or nothing at all, you never know.
Which do you really think the person will recuse this stranger or you? Now you have my point. Just like they choose wanted children over unwanted children because they don't know them very well and it is really easy to assume those unwanted children have a lousy life because they are not really valued at all... It's just like mother choose herself over her child because she don't know who this unborn child is. That is life, right? Again, it's only an example.

So, it is a life is life...

But in this case, you are talking about people who have, by all definition, achieved life. An embryo has not achieved life and is not capable of independent existence. Therefore, it is not viable, and cannot be compared to that which is viable and living independent life. One is a living being, the other has potential to become a living being. Potential is not the same as is.

 

[jillio]

I am not talkin' about REMEMBER. I am talkin' about how he would FEEL in his own reality, if it were his mother who decides not to keep him.... it doesn't matter, if it wasn't for his mother - it could be ANY mother who could give birth of him. Suppose if, his mother could NOT afford or was raped by someone else or somethin' that she could not keep him for ANY reason, HOW would he FEEL about bein' aborted by his own mother ? It would MAKE him " unimportant " because he was UNLOVED and UNWANTED. Why would someone throw a fetus away ?

Don't you realize that every agency have a better access for all disabled persons ? Deaf babies could get hearing aids or CI to help learning how to speak. There are some actors who are Down's Syndrome...some of them are painists. Every child is an investment to its parents in despite of their handicapped or what ever. There's many accesible for disabled persons every where and even, tty for deaf persons, too. Hearing people can help them.

An embryo does not have consciousness. An embryo doesn't have emotion. An embryo does not think or feel because it has not developed to the point that those things can occur in the brain. Therefore, an embryo cannot think or feel anything about abortion. You're projecting your adult feelings on something that doesn't even have a fully developed brain.

And now everyone is attempting to bring disability into the issue. Disability has absolutlely nothing to do with woman's choice.

 

[jillio]

What's the difference? Saying "probably" or "will" carries the same message. "Consent or your child will (probably, ect...) die.." means the same thing and it's wrong for any doctor to impart their agenda on someone.

My Mother didn't have the option because I was already born. Hers was a choice of treatment or no treatment, and the doctor told my mother point blank she would be a murderer if she didn't consent to treatment. No matter how you say it, it's wrong to give that kind of message!

Absolutley. It is the projection of personal values on another.