shel90

Iam not talking about children. Iam talking about deaf adults who have been exposed who have completely abandonded asl and the Deaf community. Tell them to come in here and share their experiences.

If that's what they want that's fine BUT THEY WERE EXPOSED BOTH!!! That is my beleief..expose the children to both and let them decide when they grow up and everyone is happy. Get it?

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faire_jour

And if they choose spoken language, you are fine with that? So, if my child or Li-Li or any other child grows up and chooses to be oral, you will support their choice?

deafgal001

yes, Shel is fine with that, because she said they get to choose. If they choose oral route and never use ASL, so be it.

Frisky Feline

1+ ^^^

posts from hell

Shel has expressed her opinion on that quite a bit... Did you see it?

shel90

FJ, I have stated many many times. How many more time do I need to state it?

Have them grow up with a respect for both worlds. If they choose to go oral as adults, their decision. I will support them ONLY if they don't have audist attitudes towards ASL users and the Deaf community.

I can't control deaf adults but respect them more if they have experienced both instead of saying "I hate the Deaf community and don't need ASL" when they have never experienced it. Same with Deaf people who are 100% hermits from the hearing world saying that about spoken language and hearing people.

*how many deaf actually completely 100% isolate themselves from the hearing world? Anyone?*

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posts from hell

I for sure dont.

Bebonang

That is the whole point of Deaf Culture. It was not suppose to be about spoken language and listening. Of course, we can depend on lipreading sometimes with hearing people. But we are talking about Deaf Culture, period.

Faire_jour did not understand Deaf Culture. She was talking about different thing and is still hoping that her daughter and every deaf child, whether hearing aids or CIs, would immerse into spoken language and listening.

I have been through that in the mainstream school and I really hate that very much. That is why I don't feel like discussing with her every time she does not get it on our experience. She also think that CI will change everything so that we can hear and listen plus spoken language only if not ASL. But she knows we need ASL badly. She does not care for us to use ASL when it comes to hearing family conversations. That is all I have to say here.

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GrendelQ

You do know that FJ has raised her daughter with ASL as her primary language, has fought to keep ASL in her daughter's academic curriculum, and is an outspoken proponent of bilingual education, right? Have you confused her with someone else?

Bebonang

Yes, I know.

Then FJ is messing everything up when she is talking about spoken language and listening which is way out of wacko. She was not talking about Deaf Culture at all. That is off topic anyway.

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I HAVE BEEN DEAF SINCE BIRTH, AND IT IS STILL AWESOME TO BE . (thumb up) (very happy)

faire_jour

Why can't my kid have both? Why can't she be Deaf and hear?

I get that you can't hear spoken language, but you don't seem to understand that other deaf people can.

I am happy that my daughter uses ASL and has a community (locally) that loves and supports her. But I am also happy that she can talk to her great grandparents and they can have a relationship and I am happy that she can talk to her Daddy on the phone when he works late. Why not give her the benefit of both? Where is the downside?

deafdyke

First of all ASL only monolingals are getting to be rare overall. There are many who are older but even most ASL users have had extensive speech training. It's like the number of Spanish speakers in America who only speak Spanish...or like the number of quebecosis who only speak French.
faire joure when you say oral, do you mean orally SKILLED or just oral only? There is a HUGE difference there. Someone can be orally skilled, but not be oral only. I am very orally skilled, to the point where I have a very high Verbal IQ. Verbal IQ indicates mastery of a language. Most dhh people have a lower verbal IQ and a high nonverbal IQ. Yet, I do not identify as oral. Even with my oral abilty, I still have a very strong connection to Deafness and Deaf culture. Bear in mind I am HOH (meaning according to hearing experts I'm more hearing then deaf))
I think that's what you're missing here. Just b/c a dhh person can hear and talk relatively well, it does not mean that they'll have the abilty to access the hearing world 100%. They will be able to access quite a bit of the hearing world yes....but....well hearing parents of dhh kids, who chose oral only seem to think that oral only will allow them to totally and completly access the hearign world, and allow them to have a "Normal Suburban Childhood" Even AG Bell Oral deafies acknowledge that while hearing and speaking is awesome....it still doesn't allow them to have complete and unfettered access to the hearing world. Did you know for example that at the Mainstream conference, a pretty much perhennisal topic is social issues and fitting in? Heck, if I had a buck for every single dhh mainstreamed "orally sucessful" guy who has ever IMd me wanting a girlfriend,or who complains that they don't fit into the hearing world/have few friends in the hearign world I'd be RICH!
Also, kids saying " I can hear you, talk" doesn't really indicate anything. They do want to talk yes....but they're still at relatively low levels of language sophistication. Heck when i was little we lived next door to a Deaf (voice off) girl. I didn't understand why she didn't speak. I felt like I had access to the hearing world and didn't need sign. Fast forward over twenty years, and I'm now hardcore ASL. I think too maybe many of the kids might be picking up from their parents the unspoken attitude that " YAY! Speech is good! Yay! My kid doesn't need something that's "speshal needs"
Yes, there are hearing parents who are very into ASL and support it....but sadly a lot of hearing parents are still unconsciously greiving.

posts from hell

deafdyke: IM Sent.

Hohtopics

Approximately when did you enter the Deaf community? What decade was it? 70's? 80's? 90's, etc...?

deafgal001

does it matter? there are some young ones to this day joining the Deaf community.

Hohtopics

Just like it is with other sub cultures, there are different aspects of the deaf culture. It doesn't have to be just the Deaf / ASL's.

Hohtopics

Well, things were different back then. Even the BTE's weren't as good during the 1970's as they are now. As a matter of fact, just the other day I was talking to a long time, oral deaf friend of mine. And we both agreed that looking back, that the body aids were more powerful than the BTE's.

deafgal001

I'm a child of 80's teen of the 90's ... I don't think it was just as good either.

rockdrummer

I don't know that anyone is "insisting" nor did I mean to imply that. It is everyones right to decide to assimilate or not but I also believe that decision will have an impact on many aspects of ones life. Especially when we are talking about communication.

rockdrummer

Looking at this from a cultural perspective it is each individuals choice to assimilate or not into the majority culture. Nobody is insisting or forcing anyone to do anything. Just as with many things in life our decisions have implications. If I move to Japan and choose to not learn their language I am going to be isolating myself from communicating with anyone that knows Japaneese.

rockdrummer

that is exactly what I was saying earlier. It's a mixed bag of results just as much in life is.

deafgal001

An ASL country... would they even allow that to happen?

rockdrummer

that is a good point. Technically deaf cultures are really sub-cultures. But at the end of the day we are still talking about two different languages.

posts from hell

I blame mexico for that.

But I think its easier done than we think

Passivist

This assumes every Japanese uses the same method of communicating. Like the deaf they don't, there are regional dialects, Cantonese etc. The deaf don't all sign either, in reality very few are totally dependent or strictly ASL only using deaf. They use SE/SEE/Cued speech, lip-reading etc. So not Must learn ASL or be isolated ? I don't think so... I think the onus is very much on the ASL person to conform to others... at present neither are giving an inch so....

deafgal001

RD later pointed out subculture.

deafdyke

LOL....PFH, does that mean you have a forum crush on me?
I do think that faire joure has been listening to AG Bell theorists too much. I think too she doesn't understand that they can spin things. They are the ones who assume that good speech and language= 100% access to the hearing world. It has ALWAYS pretty much been a mix. Some kids feel "almost hearing" but others ....It has always been pretty much a very mixed bag as to end results. That will be true of this generation as well. I also find it really ironic that the VERY same oral deaf folks who say that spoken language gives you SO much access to the hearing world, are the very same ones who complain and moan that they don't fit into the hearing world, and have a poor social life and SO many problems b/c they are dhh. You know....I'd love to see about psychological issues suffered by oral only folks. Not just reports of "high self esteem" from kids. I mean yeah that's a good sign...but still it's still early on. Many children (including hoh) do well up til about fourth grade......that's actually a reason why there's still a couple of res programs that are oral. (Clarke and St. Joseph's) and why there are still private oral programs which are for school age kids.
Oh, and she's constantly using Kat's audiogram as "proof" that CIers can hear at mild loss levels. While that can be true (and doesn't surprise me) remember that Kat had a progressive loss! It's also from testing in a silent soundproof booth.Which can be very different from the real world.
I also think that faire jour is explorating her experiance with her small deaf school to Deaf Ed as a WHOLE.
I remember actually, her saying that the speech therapist didn't have much experiance with teaching dhh kids to speak, and the only reason why she was hired was b/c she knew ASL. It's NOT about philosophy. It's about scarcity of resources!!! Heck even most public school or even most specialized speech therapists wouldn't have much training on how to teach dhh kids to speak!

faire_jour

You really think you get me, don't you? You couldn't be more wrong. First of all, I don't listen to AG Bell. I refuse to support them financially because they do not advocate for ALL methodologies. I have been to a few conferences, but I have also been to several bi-bi educational conferences as well as those put on my Hands & Voices, which is unbiased.

How would you feel if I told you that I thought you had been brainwashed by Deaf community extremists and that you were missing the big picture because you are too insulated in your closed society to see how many people with a hearing loss do wonderfully with spoken language? That the ONLY people who seek out ASL are those who are unhappy with oralism and want and need an alternative? That those who choose to live in the hearing community NEVER GET COUNTED because they never go to the Deaf community?

Also, you constantly spew things like "most orally skilled people still have language delays" or "self esteem issues" or "social issues", well, you know what? Put your money where you mouth is. SHOW US. Quit saying this bullshit that you have based on nothing but your opinion.

And actually, my daughter discriminates speech at 10 db, so that is considered normal hearing, not a mild loss. And yeah, the booth isn't real life, but 10 db in the booth definitely translates to conversation speech (55db) in the real world. You know what tells me that she hears in the real world, her ability to pick up incidental language....exactly what you claim deaf kids CAN'T do. She told me "Yep" today. She also uses words like "awesome" and knows the characters from Sponge Bob, all things we haven't taught her. She also hears and understands speech in the school cafeteria, in restaurants, from upstairs and from the backseat of the car. All things that kids with hearing aids struggle with.

As for her progressive loss, that doesn't matter. She went a full 4 years without access to spoken language. She performed as if she was profoundly deaf since her diagnosis. Children with profound or total losses do just as well as kids with severe or progressive losses when they are implanted early.

I extrapolate the bi-bi school to all voice off bi-bi schools. By default if the school is voice off they can NOT encourage or use spoken language in the classroom. They can not provide fluent spoken language immersion, because it is a voice off ASL school.

AlleyCat

Out of curiousity, how would you like us to SHOW YOU? I am part of a very large deaf community, and I see this for myself. How do I show you this? If nothing else, I can share one concrete example. I know of one oral deaf who has serious self-esteem and social issues. I know -- I used to be married to him.

rockdrummer

you are correct. My point is about communicating with any method or dialect. If you don't learn to communicate with the majority (whatever that is) then you are isolating yourself from communicatiion with anyone that does not use your mode of communication.