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Unread 05-16-2009, 01:57 PM   #1
naisho
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Question Spelling words the way they sound (Oral habits)

Thought I'd drop a little something to get the English, language, linguistics, ASL/deaf/HH experts to drop their opinions on this, and hopefully things stirring (not, kidding).


I had a short discussion with a friend who is deaf about the way hearing, hard of hearing often may tend to spell words the way they are pronounced, or the way they sound.

I found it really interesting to look into this. Because this prompted me to search on here for some results. As a result of my search, I found that spelling errors were usually done by those who are hearing or hearing impaired, but never or infrequently from those who are deaf (as in can't hear oral communication).

Case 1
For one example, the word definitely is spelled definitely, correct? Do you tend to notice that some people spell it as definately?

Obviously when spoken in pronunciation form, it sounds as if there is an "a" where it is in the incorrect spelling, as definitely is literally pronounced "deaf-a-nate-ley", in my mind. Some others pronounce it as, "deaf-nate-ley"

Case 2
The same can be said for "rediculous" instead of ridiculous. I don't know how to explain this one, but this is a less common mistake that usually hits my "observation alert" in the brain telling me this person spelled it the way it sounds.

Case 3
"Descrimination" instead of discrimination.

There are probably more, maybe you can add them here.


Vice versa, some words are spelled the way they sound and I have seen that some might not spell it correctly likewise. Such as the word spaghetti, sometimes gets written as sphagetti.




This sometimes indicates to me that the speaker was raised in an oral or speech form, because it would appear to me that a profoundly deaf or severely hard of hearing person would be less likely to make these "pronounciative" spelling mistakes.

What do you think?
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:03 PM   #2
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I have pointed out repeatedly that hearing can't spell.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:13 PM   #3
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I believe it!...They (hearies) can speak it, but can't spell it...Met so many people like that.

And the word "San Juan"...Juan is spoke with a W not a J ...

Was introduced to someone not too long ago...nice looking guy...he started conversing with me and I asked him to repeat what he said on paper...his face turned "red"....and he walked off....to find out the man could not read or write......
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naisho View Post
Thought I'd drop a little something to get the English, language, linguistics, ASL/deaf/HH experts to drop their opinions on this, and hopefully things stirring (not, kidding).


I had a short discussion with a friend who is deaf about the way hearing, hard of hearing often may tend to spell words the way they are pronounced, or the way they sound.

I found it really interesting to look into this. Because this prompted me to search on here for some results. As a result of my search, I found that spelling errors were usually done by those who are hearing or hearing impaired, but never or infrequently from those who are deaf (as in can't hear oral communication).

For one example, the word definitely is spelled definitely, correct? Do you tend to notice that some people spell it as definately?

Obviously when spoken in pronunciation form, it sounds as if there is an "a" where it is in the incorrect spelling, as definitely is literally pronounced "deaf-a-nate-ley", in my mind. Some others pronounce it as, "deaf-nate-ley"


The same can be said for "rediculous" instead of ridiculous. I don't know how to explain this one, but this is a less common mistake that usually hits my "observation alert" in the brain telling me this person spelled it the way it sounds.



Vice versa, some words are spelled the way they sound and I have seen that some might not spell it correctly likewise. Such as the word spaghetti, sometimes gets written as sphagetti.




This sometimes indicates to me that the speaker was raised in an oral or speech form, because it would appear to me that a profoundly deaf or severely hard of hearing person would be less likely to make these "pronounciative" spelling mistakes.

What do you think?
Hmmmm, good post. I think it boils down to the deaf person's willingness to be corrected in the pronunciation of words. My friends know that I want to be corrected when I mispronounce a word, but not during a board meeting.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottesini View Post
I have pointed out repeatedly that hearing can't spell.
Bottesini - There are definitely words spellings that do not follow the sounds of the words. My understanding is that 20 % of the words claimed to be English are actually from other languages. I myself when I say the word "definitely" do not say a "short a", (or is he suggesting a "long A" becuase of the letter "e" after the letter "t"), but rather a "short i" sound. Does that help or hinder me with my spelling or am I simply a lowzee tieper??

Really it is simply two different approaches to understanding print.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:24 PM   #6
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loml - This is not to criticize or point you out of the list of "suspects" among my search.

I found in one of your previous posts during my search conducted on here. This indicates to me, or rather, gives me an impression that you were raised from an oral environment by chance, is that true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loml View Post
The letters are definately the symbols that represent the letters also called graphemes for the language of English print. These letters also represent the sound or phoneme. People/children who are deaf/hoh can and do think in sound with cueing.

Cue notation for chair is: 8c3s the sounds are [ch] [air]
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by naisho View Post
loml - This is not to criticize or point you out of the list of "suspects" among my search.

I found in one of your previous posts during my search conducted on here. This indicates to me that you were raised from an oral environment by chance, is that true?
naisho - LOL I am not surprised, but seriously when I say that word out loud I do not enunciate an "a", short or long. Or maybe I just don't enunciate the a when I am thinking about it.

My parents have heavy Scottish accents, maybe this has something to do with it. All very interesting indeed.

One could define my environment as having an oral component I suppose..
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:42 PM   #8
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How can a deaf person spell a word he/she cannot hear?
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:48 PM   #9
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OH OH OH OH! ME ME ME ME!

Get this.. when I used Viable to place a call.. my BIL Juan picked up the phone and the operator fingerspelled.... "Ron".

My pet peeve nowadays are teens spelling "Yeah" with this "Ya".. ugh!
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:48 PM   #10
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Well I notice that hearing tend to misspell words by spelling it the way they sound. Deaf on the other hand tend to spell by sight and they may get two similar words mixed up or the spelling may look like the correct spelled word and have a letter or too wrong. I used to spell Mississpi by trowing in as many "i"s and "s"s as possible.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:49 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by naisho View Post
loml - This is not to criticize or point you out of the list of "suspects" among my search.

I found in one of your previous posts during my search conducted on here. This indicates to me, or rather, gives me an impression that you were raised from an oral environment by chance, is that true?
Uh, I am under the impression Loml is hearing.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naisho View Post
loml - This is not to criticize or point you out of the list of "suspects" among my search.

I found in one of your previous posts during my search conducted on here. This indicates to me, or rather, gives me an impression that you were raised from an oral environment by chance, is that true?
loml is hearing.

The fact that the deaf are actually better spellers than the hearing is a well known concept. It has to do with the top down processing that is employed in processing the written word. There has been much cognitive psychology research done on this very topic as it relates to the deaf.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:57 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mrs Bucket View Post
OH OH OH OH! ME ME ME ME!

Get this.. when I used Viable to place a call.. my BIL Juan picked up the phone and the operator fingerspelled.... "Ron".

My pet peeve nowadays are teens spelling "Yeah" with this "Ya".. ugh!
Oh yea. My pet peeve is the pathetic pathetic use of "off of."
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Unread 05-16-2009, 02:57 PM   #14
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Well I notice that hearing tend to misspell words by spelling it the way they sound. Deaf on the other hand tend to spell by sight and they may get two similar words mixed up or the spelling may look like the correct spelled word and have a letter or too wrong. I used to spell Mississpi by trowing in as many "i"s and "s"s as possible.
You are correct. The errors made by hearing spellers are phonetically similar sounds, and those made by deaf spellers are in two words that create the same shape overall. We do not look at the individual letters when we see and process a familiar word. We see the overall shape formed by the letters.I think we had a similar discussion a while back.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:01 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by loml View Post
Bottesini - There are definitely words spellings that do not follow the sounds of the words. My understanding is that 20 % of the words claimed to be English are actually from other languages. I myself when I say the word "definitely" do not say a "short a", (or is he suggesting a "long A" becuase of the letter "e" after the letter "t"), but rather a "short i" sound. Does that help or hinder me with my spelling or am I simply a lowzee tieper??

Really it is simply two different approaches to understanding print.
If you take it back far enough, all English words come from other languages. Phonetically spelling has absolutely nothing to do with understanding print. Being able to phonetically sound out a word does absolutely nothing to provide cues regarding the meaning of that word. Meaning is necessary for understanding print.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:02 PM   #16
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Iv been a quite good speller throughout my life. I am not exaggerating. As soon I see once how a word is spelt I can spell it correctly continously. But of course the same as many deaf people like me I do have trouble spelling words that I cannot pronouce or really hear properly
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:02 PM   #17
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Basically, the reason why I'm posting this is because of an overall hypothesis I've been trying to conduct (this is not for empirical purposes, just for self-realization).

You have to be raised from an oral environment to spell the word "definately" incorrectly, and by oral environment I include hearing, and the hearing impaired.

Would most of us agree on this?
Because, I had noticed and am guessing that a Deaf (I say this with a capital D), who was raised from a deaf environment, would be virtually impossible for them to misspell "definately" because for one they can't hear it. There are probably some exemptions, but this is the overall question I am trying to present.

Any comments or suggestions on that?
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:07 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by DeafLissa90 View Post
Iv been a quite good speller throughout my life. I am not exaggerating. As soon I see once how a word is spelt I can spell it correctly continously. But of course the same as many deaf people like me I do have trouble spelling words that I cannot pronouce or really hear properly
Meaning no offense, but is your spell checker on? Don't worry, I am in the same baot! And btw, naisho specified folk with profound hearing loss, which I assume to mean those who cannot hear voices.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:08 PM   #19
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I usually make mistakes when I type fast I dont usually check the spelling. Sorry guys LOL
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:15 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by naisho View Post
Basically, the reason why I'm posting this is because of an overall hypothesis I've been trying to conduct (this is not for empirical purposes, just for self-realization).

You have to be raised from an oral environment to spell the word "definately" incorrectly, and by oral environment I include hearing, and the hearing impaired.

Would most of us agree on this?
Because, I had noticed and am guessing that a Deaf (I say this with a capital D), who was raised from a deaf environment, would be virtually impossible for them to misspell "definately" because for one they can't hear it. There are probably some exemptions, but this is the overall question I am trying to present.

Any comments or suggestions on that?
No, you do not have to be from an oral environment to spell a word incorrectly, nor is it virtually impossible to spell a word incorrectly simply because you are deaf. The type of spelling errors made are simply different.
Someone from an oral environment is more likely to make errors based on phonetic similarities, and someone from a visual environment is more likely to make errors based on shape similarities.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:19 PM   #21
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No, you do not have to be from an oral environment to spell a word incorrectly, nor is it virtually impossible to spell a word incorrectly simply because you are deaf. The type of spelling errors made are simply different.
Someone from an oral environment is more likely to make errors based on phonetic similarities, and someone from a visual environment is more likely to make errors based on shape similarities.
Fascinating! I have profound hearing loss, and I find myself to this day pronouncing words as I read them. Well, up to a point, lol.

Last edited by Beowulf; 05-16-2009 at 03:20 PM. Reason: changed see to read
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:21 PM   #22
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I have not always had a profound loss, iv had a severe loss from 9 months -8 years and now sort of in the severe-profound category but mostly profound and i do pronouce words as I do think they are pronouced. My mum and my sister usually help me and correct my pronounciation of words which i do thank them for.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:26 PM   #23
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:32 PM   #24
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Fascinating! I have profound hearing loss, and I find myself to this day pronouncing words as I read them. Well, up to a point, lol.
Well, actually pronouncing the words as you read them has more to do with the methodology used to teach you to read. Even hearing people process the word in print from top down....meaning that the individual letters are not seen when reading, the word as a shape is seen. If there is a descrepancy, then the next step in the processing is to see the first letter and the last letter to solve the discrepancy. The only time we actually break a word into syllables or individual letters or morphemes when we read is when it is an unfamiliar word being seen for the first time. From then on out, it is processed as a shape.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:34 PM   #25
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I have not always had a profound loss, iv had a severe loss from 9 months -8 years and now sort of in the severe-profound category but mostly profound and i do pronouce words as I do think they are pronouced. My mum and my sister usually help me and correct my pronounciation of words which i do thank them for.
That is great! I notice that you are nineteen years old, so my hat is off to you. I would like to know, though, if you allow others to correct you? I think you know what I mean. For myself, there is a price to pay for the willingness to let the world correct you in your pronunciation of words. It is a pisser, lol.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:35 PM   #26
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What about if we work with the word definitely, for example.. following this since it is the major example right now.

There are 25 ways to spell that i incorrectly, so when referring to shape similarities, I assume it has to look similar to the way it is written or seen..

definately, definbtely, definctely, defindtely, definetely, definftely, defingtely, definhtely, definitely, definjtely, definhtely, definktely, definltely, definmtely, definntely, definotely, definptely, definqtely, definrtely, definstely, definttely, definutely, definvtely, definwtely, definxtely, definytely, definztely

if we take five vowel words out, we have:
definately, definetely, definitely, definotely, definutely

the ones that are "looking" like they work are (aside from definitely):
definately, definetely, definltely, definntely.

On the QWERTY keyboard, the A is nearly all the way on the "left" side of the board, so you have to be pressing a key from the following sets of letters - assuming average typers use two hands the standard position, in a 101-US keyboard layout.

Q W E R T
A S D F G
Z X C V B

if we use those words for shape comparing, we get:
definqtely, definwtely, definetely, definrtely, definttely
definately, definstely, defindtely, definftely, defingtely
definztely, definxtely, definctely, definvtely, definbtely

in all of those, the only way I can see it from the way I'm understanding, are the underlined ones that look like they are the most common. The rest look like they are really obvious typing mistakes that no one would make unless they hit the wrong key on accident, both of oral and deaf.

Observing from that, one would have to be reaching from the left side of the board to be choosing that as a shape-spelling mistake, this is all I'm wondering for this word in particular.

It doesn't make too much sense for hitting left hand for those sets of letters unless you were spelling "orally", if you get what I mean.

Also, the word definitely stems from definite, if that is of any importance?

I'm not trying to disprove or ramble upon anything here, I'm just trying to understand how exactly would people be able to spell the word definitely incorrectly while typing (not actually spelling as writing on a paper).
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:37 PM   #27
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Well, actually pronouncing the words as you read them has more to do with the methodology used to teach you to read. Even hearing people process the word in print from top down....meaning that the individual letters are not seen when reading, the word as a shape is seen. If there is a descrepancy, then the next step in the processing is to see the first letter and the last letter to solve the discrepancy. The only time we actually break a word into syllables or individual letters or morphemes when we read is when it is an unfamiliar word being seen for the first time. From then on out, it is processed as a shape.
I'll take your word for that, jillio, since I have no idea why I communicate the way I do, lol.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:39 PM   #28
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If you want more in depth information regarding the congnitive processing of print, spelling and errors, and the differences in visual memory as applied to the deaf, then I would suggest Psychology of Deafness, , by Marc Marsharck, et.al. This is a compilation of many years of research and contains the complete reports of several years of cognitive research on this topic.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:41 PM   #29
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What about if we work with the word definitely, for example.. following this since it is the major example right now.

There are 25 ways to spell that i incorrectly, so when referring to shape similarities, I assume it has to look similar to the way it is written or seen..

definately, definbtely, definctely, defindtely, definetely, definftely, defingtely, definhtely, definitely, definjtely, definhtely, definktely, definltely, definmtely, definntely, definotely, definptely, definqtely, definrtely, definstely, definttely, definutely, definvtely, definwtely, definxtely, definytely, definztely

if we take five vowel words out, we have:
definately, definetely, definitely, definotely, definutely

the ones that are "looking" like they work are (aside from definitely):
definately, definetely, definltely, definntely.

On the QWERTY keyboard, the A is nearly all the way on the "left" side of the board, so you have to be pressing a key from the following sets of letters - assuming average typers use two hands the standard position, in a 101-US keyboard layout.

Q W E R T
A S D F G
Z X C V B

if we use those words for shape comparing, we get:
definqtely, definwtely, definetely, definrtely, definttely
definately, definstely, defindtely, definftely, defingtely
definztely, definxtely, definctely, definvtely, definbtely

in all of those, the only way I can see it from the way I'm understanding, are the underlined ones that look like they are the most common. The rest look like they are really obvious typing mistakes that no one would make unless they hit the wrong key on accident, both of oral and deaf.

Observing from that, one would have to be reaching from the left side of the board to be choosing that as a shape-spelling mistake, this is all I'm wondering for this word in particular.

It doesn't make too much sense for hitting left hand for those sets of letters unless you were spelling "orally", if you get what I mean.

Also, the word definitely stems from definite, if that is of any importance?

I'm not trying to disprove or ramble upon anything here, I'm just trying to understand how exactly would people be able to spell the word definitely incorrectly while typing (not actually spelling as writing on a paper).
Only if you are studying etymology. And a spelling error is a spelling error whether you have written the word with a pen, or whether you have typed the word. A typo is not a spelling error, and a spelling error is not a typo. The mode of putting the word into print has no bearing on the spelling error, or the type of spelling error.
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Unread 05-16-2009, 03:49 PM   #30
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If you want more in depth information regarding the congnitive processing of print, spelling and errors, and the differences in visual memory as applied to the deaf, then I would suggest Psychology of Deafness, , by Marc Marsharck, et.al. This is a compilation of many years of research and contains the complete reports of several years of cognitive research on this topic.
Eh, where's the fun in that? All that is left is to ruefully admit that I am already figured out, and that is frightening.
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