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Unread 10-05-2010, 03:03 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HHIssues View Post
How would you feel that if someone that does not use a wheelchair dictates how all those that does should live?

I still think it comes down to who are YOU to determine how ALL of the deaf should live?
That's a closed minded view. How can there be any progress at all if people are so closed minded to what the other person has to offer, and by that, I mean both the deaf and hearing? You're not going to make progress if both sides don't come together. You're not going to make progress if the hearing medical establishment doesn't understand deaf culture. You're not going to make progress if the Deaf person simply refuses to give a hearing person a chance. You're not going to make progress if the hearing person shuns a deaf person just because they have an HA or CI, or "the way they speak", or "their flying hands".

People need to quit being so closed minded and try to give each other a chance. It can work, but it's going to take both the hearing and the deaf to make the change. This age old fight for equality has to start somewhere. Why not start by making the effort to cooperate with one another?

And, yes, it must begin with the medical establishment. As it stands right now, it doesn't appear that they have a clue regarding deaf culture. So, I'm saying make the changes in what the future students are being taught. Then, you may begin to see more compassion, and, a true betterment for the deaf.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 03:09 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Frankly, no. They should not accept it. They should speak up and correct those who voice such opinions, whether it is overtly or covertly.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:32 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze View Post
That's a closed minded view. How can there be any progress at all if people are so closed minded to what the other person has to offer, and by that, I mean both the deaf and hearing? You're not going to make progress if both sides don't come together. You're not going to make progress if the hearing medical establishment doesn't understand deaf culture. You're not going to make progress if the Deaf person simply refuses to give a hearing person a chance. You're not going to make progress if the hearing person shuns a deaf person just because they have an HA or CI, or "the way they speak", or "their flying hands".

People need to quit being so closed minded and try to give each other a chance. It can work, but it's going to take both the hearing and the deaf to make the change. This age old fight for equality has to start somewhere. Why not start by making the effort to cooperate with one another?

And, yes, it must begin with the medical establishment. As it stands right now, it doesn't appear that they have a clue regarding deaf culture. So, I'm saying make the changes in what the future students are being taught. Then, you may begin to see more compassion, and, a true betterment for the deaf.
Alright, how about you being not closed minded and being open to the possibility that ASL is not necessarily for ALL of the deaf people...?
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Unread 10-06-2010, 04:06 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HHIssues View Post
Alright, how about you being not closed minded and being open to the possibility that ASL is not necessarily for ALL of the deaf people...?
I can accept it, but, I would argue that the deaf person is still going to struggle trying to understand what is being said. If they are solely relying on speech reading, they will miss things. The CI/HA cannot be submerged in water. Deafies don't wear their equipment to bed. So, some of the time, the person is going to be completely deaf and will have to rely on the ability to speech read, which, leaves them open to miss certain phrases/words, ect. If they had a visual language (ASL) to fall back on, they'd NOT miss anything. Same is true for being in a crowd. Have you ever tried to follow more than one conversation at once? It's difficult, yes? Again, this is where ASL would be very useful.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 05:09 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Very well said! For a hearing person you have the heart and mind of a Deaf person.. I bow before you. :bow:
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Unread 10-06-2010, 06:37 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HHIssues View Post
How would you feel that if someone that does not use a wheelchair dictates how all those that does should live?

I still think it comes down to who are YOU to determine how ALL of the deaf should live?
In my view, I think all deaf/hh children should be exposed to both and then when they are adults, they decide for themselves whether to be a proud member of the Deaf community or not. Doesnt bother me.

It is about hearing people telling us that we should meet their communication needs, getting CIs or HAs, or having to be a part of their world because it is the majority.

My question was...why?

If Deaf people are happy using only ASL, dont have speech skills, dont interact with nonsigners, or dont have HAs or CIs...what's wrong with that?
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:38 PM   #67 (permalink)
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In my view, I think all deaf/hh children should be exposed to both and then when they are adults, they decide for themselves whether to be a proud member of the Deaf community or not. Doesnt bother me.
I don't think you mean to limit this, but just want to point out that I don't want my child to have to wait until the age of consent before being exposed to the Deaf community. I'd like her to interact fluidly with both children and adults -- Deaf, deaf & HOH, aided/unaided, hearing -- all without obstacles.

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It is about hearing people telling us that we should meet their communication needs, getting CIs or HAs, or having to be a part of their world because it is the majority.

My question was...why?

If Deaf people are happy using only ASL, dont have speech skills, dont interact with nonsigners, or dont have HAs or CIs...what's wrong with that?
Is there anyone here arguing that Deaf people who want to use ASL only and don't interact with nonsigners are in the wrong or must come into the nonsigning world unwillingly?
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:41 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GrendelQ View Post
I don't think you mean to limit this, but just want to point out that I don't want my child to have to wait until the age of consent before being exposed to the Deaf community. I'd like her to interact fluidly with both children and adults -- Deaf, deaf & HOH, aided/unaided, hearing -- all without obstacles.



Is there anyone here arguing that Deaf people who want to use ASL only and don't interact with nonsigners are in the wrong or must come into the nonsigning world unwillingly?
Some people here have said that they are "isolating" themselves and also out there IRL. Sometimes when I bring up questions, situations, and etc, it is not always become of what other ADers say. Sometimes I use real life experiences too or sometimes it has nothing to do with other ADers.

Recently, I have been coming across some people who are making comments about how deaf people should get CIs. I noticed that has been happening more often than before.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:51 PM   #69 (permalink)
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If they had a visual language (ASL) to fall back on, they'd NOT miss anything. Same is true for being in a crowd. Have you ever tried to follow more than one conversation at once? It's difficult, yes? Again, this is where ASL would be very useful.
I've watched my daughter in crowds, and don't think she's able to follow more than a couple of signers at once. Not very different from being able to make sense of more than a handful of voices all happening at the same time. Just as she would need to turn her eyes to follow an individual signer in a crowd, so would she need to turn her head to aim her microphones as an individual speaker in order to focus in on that particular conversation.

If we were in an ideal world where all used ASL, yes, a visual language would be GREAT for those inevitable periods of complete deafness that a CI wearer has. But, we're not. While my daughter may be fluent in ASL, very few people are. And unless she limits her interactions to only other signers, without processors on, she'll simply be in the same boat as any unaided deaf person among non-signers with whom knowing ASL doesn't help: finding ways to communicate via speech, speechreading, common gestures, writing, texting.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:53 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Some people here have said that they are "isolating" themselves and also out there IRL. Sometimes when I bring up questions, situations, and etc, it is not always become of what other ADers say. Sometimes I use real life experiences too or something it was nothing to do with AD.

Recently, I have been coming across some people who are making comments about how deaf people should get CIs. I noticed that has been happening more often than before.
I agree that this is wrong -- it may be a great choice for my family, but I know situations where it's just not. I don't think anyone should be pressured or coerced into something so drastic. Because frankly, surgery is not a small step. Managing aids or CIs is not a small thing.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:54 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I agree that this is wrong -- it may be a great choice for my family, but I know situations where it's just not. I don't think anyone should be pressured or coerced into something so drastic. Because frankly, surgery is not a small step. Managing aids or CIs is not a small thing.
It is weird because I dont remember meeting people recently who ever said that all deaf people should get hearing aids except for my teachers when I was growing up.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:58 PM   #72 (permalink)
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It is weird because I dont remember meeting people recently who ever said that all deaf people should get hearing aids except for my teachers when I was growing up.
Maybe it is because you are away from and free from that world but they still say those same things today in deepest Oralingua!

Last edited by Tousi; 10-06-2010 at 10:02 PM.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 08:36 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I'm one of those who is slightly isolating myself. I don't think it's only my hearing loss that's doing it. I am finding that I am having a harder time more and more being in public places. I hate crowds, I hate feeling crowded in. I hate disorganization. I hate having a communication gap. I can speak very clearly having had hearing of some sort for 42-43 years and no hearing for 4 years. People do not believe me when I say I can't hear them and will refuse to use pen and paper or my netbook word pad for communication. I do sign a little with the deaf club, but they are not happy that I do not have a better grasp of ASL or PSE. The adult ed classes here have cancelled all ASL classes, since there aren't enough people signing up for classes.

I do get out to go to the library and grocery shopping. I do go to my deaf club once in a while. I will be traveling to see Hollykins and Marylou4 in another week. I will spend the weekend at Marylou4's home. So, I'm not totally isolating myself. Just partially, if that's right.

I feel more and more insecure as time goes on.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 09:02 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Very well said! For a hearing person you have the heart and mind of a Deaf person.. I bow before you. :bow:
A few words, my friend....

Empathy, a certain understanding, concessions..... You get the idea.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 09:08 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GrendelQ View Post
I've watched my daughter in crowds, and don't think she's able to follow more than a couple of signers at once. Not very different from being able to make sense of more than a handful of voices all happening at the same time. Just as she would need to turn her eyes to follow an individual signer in a crowd, so would she need to turn her head to aim her microphones as an individual speaker in order to focus in on that particular conversation.

If we were in an ideal world where all used ASL, yes, a visual language would be GREAT for those inevitable periods of complete deafness that a CI wearer has. But, we're not. While my daughter may be fluent in ASL, very few people are. And unless she limits her interactions to only other signers, without processors on, she'll simply be in the same boat as any unaided deaf person among non-signers with whom knowing ASL doesn't help: finding ways to communicate via speech, speechreading, common gestures, writing, texting.
So, we decide to forgo teaching a deaf baby ASL simply because of logisitics? That seems like it would create an even bigger problem. I still would assert that it's better to have ASL than not have it. Your daughter has ASL to use if she chooses to. What I hope to see in the future is all babies and children being taught it; regardless if they have a CI or not.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 09:13 PM   #76 (permalink)
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So, we decide to forgo teaching a deaf baby ASL simply because of logisitics? That seems like it would create an even bigger problem. I still would assert that it's better to have ASL than not have it. Your daughter has ASL to use if she chooses to. What I hope to see in the future is all babies and children being taught it; regardless if they have a CI or not.
Logistics are real life. How is a child supposed to learn ASL if there is no one to teach them? No one to interact with?
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Unread 10-06-2010, 10:39 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Logistics are real life. How is a child supposed to learn ASL if there is no one to teach them? No one to interact with?
Parents can learn. Immersion in the deaf community is one way. A person can also sign themselves up for classes at their local community college. If a parent can hit the internet and search hrs on end for information regarding CI's, then, they can do the same for sign language classes.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 10:58 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Maybe it is because you are away from and free from that world but they still say those same things today in deepest Oralingua!
Do they have frozen rum drinks there???
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Unread 10-06-2010, 11:00 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Do they have frozen rum drinks there???
I want one!
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Unread 10-06-2010, 11:04 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Do they have frozen rum drinks there???
That's the minimum you will need in that world! J/K
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Unread 10-07-2010, 01:50 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Parents can learn. Immersion in the deaf community is one way. A person can also sign themselves up for classes at their local community college. If a parent can hit the internet and search hrs on end for information regarding CI's, then, they can do the same for sign language classes.
How did you become fluent in ASL? (Over what period of time, what route did you take)
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Unread 10-07-2010, 04:57 AM   #82 (permalink)
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I can accept it, but, I would argue that the deaf person is still going to struggle trying to understand what is being said. If they are solely relying on speech reading, they will miss things. The CI/HA cannot be submerged in water. Deafies don't wear their equipment to bed. So, some of the time, the person is going to be completely deaf and will have to rely on the ability to speech read, which, leaves them open to miss certain phrases/words, ect. If they had a visual language (ASL) to fall back on, they'd NOT miss anything. Same is true for being in a crowd. Have you ever tried to follow more than one conversation at once? It's difficult, yes? Again, this is where ASL would be very useful.
Did it ever occur to you that there are still other means of communicating even without ASL and even if the child isn't wearing an hearing aid or a CI? For starters, some do develop excellent lipreading skills. Secondly, some of the parents do learn how to be naturally expressive and would still face their child when talking to them or would make a little more than usual mouth articulation and so forth.

For instance, my parents didn't know ASL yet I understood every word they said especially my mother even when I wasn't wearing my hearing aids and that was during the "pre-CI" days...
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Unread 10-07-2010, 04:59 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Parents can learn. Immersion in the deaf community is one way. A person can also sign themselves up for classes at their local community college. If a parent can hit the internet and search hrs on end for information regarding CI's, then, they can do the same for sign language classes.
What's in it for you?

I still think who are YOU to tell how ALL of the deaf people should live...?

How would you feel if someone that does not use a wheelchair tell all those that does how to live? You hadn't answered the question?
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Unread 10-07-2010, 05:02 AM   #84 (permalink)
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It is about hearing people telling us that we should meet their communication needs, getting CIs or HAs, or having to be a part of their world because it is the majority.
Some of you are always telling hearing parents of CI children that "they don't know what is it like to be deaf". Then tell Oceanbreeze that, that "he doesn't know what is it like to be deaf" either.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 07:40 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Some of you are always telling hearing parents of CI children that "they don't know what is it like to be deaf". Then tell Oceanbreeze that, that "he doesn't know what is it like to be deaf" either.
I don't think you know what it is like for me to be deaf.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 09:08 AM   #86 (permalink)
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I don't think you know what it is like for me to be deaf.
Right, andyou don't know what it is like for my daughter, so why does anyone assume to have the right answers?
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Unread 10-07-2010, 09:10 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Right, andyou don't know what it is like for my daughter, so why does anyone assume to have the right answers?
Only you are talking about your daughter.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 09:17 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Only you are talking about your daughter.
No, when someone is against childhood implantation and against chilodren being permitted to attend spoken language schools, they are deciding what is best for ALL deaf children, so they are talking about my daughter too.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 09:18 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Right, andyou don't know what it is like for my daughter, so why does anyone assume to have the right answers?
Right, and you don't know what it is like for your daughter too as well. You may get an idea of what it might be like... but you still don't know what it's like.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 09:20 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Right, and you don't know what it is like for your daughter too as well. You may get an idea of what it might be like... but you still don't know what it's like.
Nicely said.
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