deafdyke

Yes, it was used in one of my college classes. I went to a HEARING college BTW. It's a VERY simple low tech solution, that could be just as good as CART.


But the IEP is not supposed to be used that way. You are arguing that Jackie's daughter is being kept back from acheiving b/c she misses stuff in the classroom. You're saying that she's essentailly being kept at average functioning...but if she was just an average student she would just be getting C's. Instead she is getting Bs and As!

Deafness

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jillio

Thanks, SCJSue.....there's the key phrase: must consider the students present level of functioning. And in the case of jackie's daughter, her high functioning means that additional services will not be written into the IEP.

jillio

If you want to pm me withthe area you are in, or the school she is planning to attend I can send you provider lists.

Agreed, you argue appropriate not best. But remember also that the reasonalbe is in there. And CART services at the high school level would ahve to be as a last resort for a substandard performing student I am afraid.

CART would definately be helpful in chem and anatomy classes.

jillio

Wrong. It is not about what is best, but what is reasonable and appropriate. And it is not decided on potential, but on present level of functioning. Guess your wife attended all the IEPs for your daughter, huh?

jag

Actually Rick getting what is best for each individual is the goal, the thing is you won't get it by using the word best. The IEP is supposed to be individual. I find it frustrating cause schools really don't individualize the instruction as they should. It requires constant monitoring to ensure anything you've put in there is actually done as stated. And I think this is where alot of the disagrement in this particular discussion is. I really don't know if your family used an IEP for your daughter but accomodations are usually resonable, in this case CART has so far been found to be resonable in the due process so far. That can change as it winds it way through the court system based on how well the attourney can argue that the accomodation is reasonable (compared to her peers, including the other deaf kids in that school system) and how the school had worded it's rejection (pwn) of this request. I do hope the student prevails but it's hard to say if the courts will actually determine this to be reasonable in this instance, Jillio and dd are right in stating that this would be concidered over what is necessary for this particular student based on prior court cases where it's been determined that if the student is doing well or average the school is doing it's job and no other accomodation is necessary. That's why I wish Jackie luck and why I think she should be very careful how she words any posts or how she says anything in the media. She could be making her case even harder to win.

Having said that parents do need to know they can't say best. They need to go into the IEP meeting with any and all information showing why the accomodation they are requesting is APPROPRIATE for thier child. Sadly we can't ask for the best but can ask for appropriate (which just may be the best, if we can get the information and stuff to show it is appropriate over what they can provide, if they provide nothing to begin with we've a better chance. )

rick48

JAG,

You are right about using the word best and many, many posts ago I wrote about how the goal at an IEP is not to argue that what you are seeking are the "best" services for your child for you will fall into the Rowley trap but to demonstrate how what you are seeking are appropriate as opposed to be what is being offered by the SD. As in Jackie's case CART as opposed to a sign interpreter for a child who is not fluent in sign.

The word "best" should never ever enter the room where your IEP is being held.
Rick

rick48

No, I went to them all, along with her, our TOD and our daughter's S&L therapist. We got everything we asked for and needed for our child's education because we were both prepared and we had a SE director whose goal was to provide the best education possible for our daughter.

jag

And I think that thats one of the things we need to keep stressing here for parents who may be reading these posts. Getting an accomdation that some deem to be unreasonable may rest on being able to prove it's appropriate so constant reminders to parents not to use the word best need to be made I think. I'm all for Jackie pushing for CART for her daughter, it sounds like she's using equal access rather then the best accomdation. Will be interesting to see how this plays out through the courts. In the mean time her daughter is getting the service.

jillio

And there's a problem with mainstream education for the deaf right there. The fact that it is lomped in with special education services. That allows for modification of the curiiculam,a nd it is not modification of the curriulum that deaf students need, it is modification of methodology. Modification f curriculum results in exactly the undereducation of bright capable students that we see on a widespread basis, and perpetuates the widely held belief by mainstream educators that deaf students are less intellectually capable than their hearing peers.

Exactly what accommodations were provided for your daughter? Pulling out of class for speech and language therapy? Separate instruction for langauge arts? Preferential seating?

jillio

And as the decision rests on assessment of the child's current level of functioning, it would appear, from that perspective, that jackie's request for additional accommodations is excessive.

jillio

Exactly. And where this discussion of appropriate accommodations, when just this point was made in an attempt tp advise this parent by supplying just that information in an effort to assist in obtaining services, it was twisted into an anti-CI stance rather than an attempt to assist. CI is not and has never been, as issue in this case. Yet when this advise was offered, accusations abounded that we were simply anti-CI and pro ASL only. Emotion distorted the true issue. What a parent needs to do to increase their chances of winning not only at the due process level, but within the court system is the issue. And even jackie admitted that her attorney had made the same statements to her that I had made. And, had some of the strategies recommended by those who are responsible for making sure that the ADA is enforced, as well as responsible for following ADA guidelines in the provision of accommodations, been used in the IEP meeting, there is a better than average chance that resoting to due process would never have been necessary. Unfortunately, parents too often approach the request for service from an emotional standpoint and argue on the basis of fairness, citing only the added effort necessary by them in ensuring that their child succeeds academically. They shoot themselves in their own foot, and then refuse to understand how they have contributed to the denial of their request.

rick48

Who said anything about modification of curriculum? Do you just make things up as you go along? My daughter took honors and AP courses.

Sorry, but I will not discuss my child with you as you have proven to have no genuine interest in any rational discussion with someone who chose a different path then you did for your child and, more importantly, your past comments about her show that your sole intention is to further demean her as a futile attempt to get back at me.

jillio

Please show me where I have made a demeaning comment to your daughter. I believe that was a question regarding service.......neither a statement, nor a personal observation. Your defense mechanisms are way over developed. They do have therapy for that.

And, since you seem to be having trouble focusing....you said "special ed", and I said "lumping deaf education under the umbrella of "special ed" allowed for modifications to the curriculum.

rick48

Disagree, as she is seeking equal access to maintain and perhaps hopefully increase her present level, which thankfully is excellent.

rick48

Right off the top of my head Post #50 in your "Why" thread. You talk about going into the gutter when it is you who comments upon other's children.

jillio

You can disagree all you wnat to. It isn't about her intention. It is about the criteria used to judge whether additional accommodations are necessary. Present level of functioning is the criterion most looked at.

jillio

Off the top of your head, huh? That paranoia is getting worse.

Went back and read the post, and I can't find your name or your daughter's name in it anywhere, nor can I find anything that could be considered a personal attack. And, as the response was made to shel, and not to you, it rather presumptuous of you to simply assume it was about you. You've really got to stop jumping to so many concclusions.

deafdyke

I have to say that I think deaf and other classicly disabled kids would get a better education, if they were served by a different service agency. Most special ed teachers don't know how to teach kids like us. They usually just get a token one day intro to fingerspelling.
Rick so your daughter did really well? That doesn't surprise me. But, early on did she have to have significent accomondations?

shel90

Jackie is also a teacher for the deaf so I was appalled when she called the deaf children who go to the deaf school "bad" according to what she heard from others. To me, that shows lack of compassion for those who can't "make" it in the public schools. Like they r beneath the oral sucesses and that is one of the many reasons I dislike this philisophy.

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pek1

shel,

My blood is near the boiling point regarding that comment! My late aunt was a teacher for first grade (hearies) and always referred to them as "dum dums." She once called me "deaf and dumb" to which I replied, "I'm not dumb." Another thing, it is a known practice that teachers get together to choose what kids they want to teach and the ones with less seniority get the kids that no one wants to teach. This is bad and if I had known that at the time, I would have agreed with my mother to send me down to the deaf school and forget the public school in our area. This is shameful.

Now, I haven't been following this thread since the last time I posted, but, correct me if I'm wrong. Is Jackie a good teacher (one of us) or is she here just to create problems for deaf and hoh? No, I am not being facetious.

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jag

Well she did say that she was repeating what was said to her. Could be true, might not. But, I do get the impression reading posts from people here who have done the oral thing and decided the it wasn't for them that they think they were treated that way. Could she have stated it differently? sure Did she correct her co workers, I really didn't see anything based on her posts I'd say probably not but I could have missed it, but I do condider pretty sad, But that life. But I wasn't there so have no idea what she may or may not have said.

But it actually has nothing to do with my statement saying that our job as a parent (including Jackie) is to get what is appropriate for our child, the I means individual, Jackie may or may not win in the courts, time will tell. It's not up to someone who works for the school system to decide she is wrong in her persuit for the accomodation she requested for her child. What I said has nothing to do with what she may have said regarding other deaf children. Even as a teacher of the deaf/hoh her first and formost job is her children.

I get that from a social worker who had no problems taking the agency she worked for to due process because of their denying certain services to her son with down syndrome, the funny thing is that was when he was an infant, his parents havn't had to put up with much crap since then, they are treated with respect and listened to and serious concideration is given to their requests, and such requests were usually granted. I do think that many parents who's kids are covered under IDEA and ADA really need to educate themselves on what their childs rights are.

rick48

Jag,

Agree with you and it is also important that parents prioritize the services/accomodations they are requesting and pick their "fights" accordingly.
Rick

shel90

I cant judge on how good of a teacher she is but I dont agree with her philosophy of oral-only for young deaf babies and when it was apparent after several years that if the children arent picking up on spoken language, switch to signing or TC. That's the biggest reason many deaf/hoh children are language delayed and I dont approve of that kind of practice because I have seen all of my life (35 years) of the damage it did to so many deaf/hoh people, myself included.

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shel90

Fine if she is repeating what others are saying about deaf children who go to deaf schools then why call them "bad" in that one post without clarification that it was not her wording? That really pissed me off big time cuz that is a personal insult to me since my brother attended the deaf school all his life because he couldnt make it in the public schools. Matter of fact, he is studying for his Master's at a hearing college so Jackie and whoever she works with need to get a good dose of reality about the children who attend the deaf schools and start respecting them too. Just like there are children in the public schools who have academic problems or behavioral problems (Columbine anyone?) just like some kids at the deaf schools too but that doesnt mean all of them are "bad"!!! If u want to excuse her for saying that, fine with me but in my eyes, there is no excuse for that especially coming from an educator of deaf children. People with that view have done a lot of harm to numerous of deaf children by not having faith in them. Of course, the kids pick up on that and give up on learning. Why bother if the public views u as "bad"?

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jackiesolorzano

Dear Friends,
I have been thinking about sharing some thoughts and explaining some things with all of you. At times, I was against the idea of sharing because I know how critical a lot of you have been of me and my way of life. But I have decided to go ahead and share because it will give you more insights and explain some things about me and then you can understand a bit more of why I believe in the things that I believe in.
As I said before, I am a first generation American. I have a younger sister and when we entered school we did not know a single word of English. Both of my parents had a good command of English but they felt that they should each teach us their native language and that the schools would teach us English. It was easier for me to learn English then it was for my sister. She had to repeat kindergarten. My mother was a teacher in Mexico. Although she had some college education she did not graduate. My father finished high school back in Hungary. My parents were very dedicated to us. My parents worked hard and were able to live the American dream. My father before he passed away would sit with us everyday and help us with our homework. He did not work the last 3 years of his life so his sole purpose was taking care of my sister and me. My father passed away when I was 9 years old. It was hard for my mother because she was a single parent in a country where she did not have any family members close by.
I haven’t wanted to admit this to you and I don’t admit it to a lot of people but you have been right, my writing skills are not good. I speak perfect English and almost perfect Spanish but when it comes down to my writing skills, they are not where most people who have a master’s degree are. I have to put a lot of focus on it and even focusing at times it is still very hard. I am so passionate about the topics we talk about here that I have not put the focus I would need to in order for my English to be at the standard it should be at. When I am posting things I am trying to get my thoughts across in a fast manner. Jillo has made fun of me using the wrong word. She is right I do use the wrong word at times. It is hard for me to sometimes think of the right word to say. I have several languages going on in my head. I usually get it right but I have been known to use the wrong word. Most of the time people are patient with me but on this site since I go against what most people think they sort to making fun of my skills. It is OK, if it makes you feel better to make fun of me more power to you. It is not going to change who I am, what I stand for, and what I do for a living.
It seems unfair to me that several people on this site criticize my English skills although I have noticed many other members including educators, their skills are also not where they should be. I wonder why I am being held to a higher standard, is it because I am an educator or an oralist. I strongly believe it is because I do not believe in some of the members’ philosophy. If I believed in your philosophy, I know you would not criticize my grammar skills. The times that you most criticize me is when you are wrong and instead of focusing on the issue you focus on my weak grammar skills. I think over 99% of the time you know what I am trying to say and I am not writing for my supervisors, students’ parents, or college professors so why should I focus and spend so much time on editing when I have seen almost everyone else on this site make grammar errors. Even if my grammar skills were good most of you would find some other reason to criticize me or make fun of me. It just seems unfair to me but maybe it makes you feel better that my grammar skills are not good. Maybe you think that proves your point. I do apologize for my weak grammar skills. I know that at times I get words mix up and what I am trying to say sometimes gets confused or when I use the wrong word it changes the meaning completely.
I do have the capacity of writing English in the correct form it just takes me a lot longer to get it in that format. I have to first write it, edit it then I have to leave it alone for awhile and go back and edit it. Honestly, it is not worth my time to go through this process because my time is limited and I know you will find some other reason to criticized me. In college, I did very well but my hardest class was college composition. I received my only C in that class and it was the class that I worked the hardest in. I love to read and read all the time so any class that the tests were based on readings, I received A’s. I also did overall well in short essays. It just when there were papers that I had to write it took more effort. For my Master’s project I work on it for 6 months. It was a lot of work but I did get an A on it. As you know there are many state tests that teachers have to take, I have taken them all and passed them on the first time. I know of many teachers that struggle with these tests but they are still amazing, caring, and wonderful teachers. We are all humans and make mistakes.
I know how you are thinking and you might just say that a teacher shouldn’t be teaching if they have my type of grammar skills. The only reason you are thinking this is because I am an oral teacher of the deaf, if I was a signing teacher and believed in your philosophy you wouldn’t be saying this. When I am writing a report or an IEP, my emotions are not as involved as they are when I am posting something on all deaf. When my emotions and beliefs are involved my grammars skills suffer even more. And if you truly are concern about my grammar skills don’t worry I teach preschool so I am not teaching grammar skills. I personally would never put myself in a position of teaching English/grammar skills to students because I know that is not my strength and I am not doing a service to those students. I have also always told my supervisors that my grammar skills are weak. My grammar skills have never been an issued in securing a contract. Since I do speak Spanish fluently my supervisor love having me on staff, being able to speak Spanish is such an amazing skill to have in southern California.
I have also been criticized about saying that someone needs to be in the home that speaks English if a child is to get an implant and they reside in the United States. From personal experience, I know how hard it is to learn English later on in life. I know you have your research papers but you can find a research paper to support almost any point of view. What I am talking about is personal experience both from a standpoint of learning English as a 2nd language and from raising 2 implanted oral deaf teenagers. Someone needs to be at home supporting the child with the language being taught at school. I was lucky my parents both spoke fluent English so when we came home with homework they were able to help us. And even with this help it was still very hard. How do you think a child with an implant is going to succeed with oral language if there is no one in the home to help support the child? Also this is where most of you have no personal experience in those beginning years of getting implant. Yes, you have your research papers but do you have the personal experience to know what needs to be in place in the beginning when the child is just implanted. I am not saying someone has to be fluent, I am just saying someone has to be willing to learn English with that child who has an implant. Yes, children with an implant can acquire language naturally but they have to have direct instruction also. It is a combination of things. I can understand where Jillo has to deal with college age kids that haven’t had much success with the implant or Shel, who has to deal with the kids that transfer from other programs, it is hard for them. The difference is I get to work with children as soon as they get implanted. I know what needs to be in place if a child is to have as much success as possible with the implant.
I have also been criticized for not exposing my children to the Deaf culture, more. I honestly could care less if you think I need to do more. We do what we feel comfortable with. We are not doing this to please anyone. Honestly, people like Jillo are the reasons why I am careful to what type of people in the Deaf culture I expose my children. I do what feels comfortable to me and my children.
What I ask of you instead of focusing on my bad grammar skills focus on what I am saying. I can assure you that I will try to focus more on my grammar but at times mistakes will happen especially when you are criticizing me or when I do not have the time to edit.
I also owe a big apology to Tousi. I was embarrassed. I did not want to admit my weakness because so many of you had already criticized me so much. I do think it was wrong and weak of Tousi to wait until he/she thought I was off the site to make the comments about my grammar skills. I am sorry to Tousi and to all of you for saying it was an experiment. It was not. It was me trying to hide my weakness.

jackiesolorzano

Thank you Jag. You know my daughter is not meeting her full potential. Her IQ is a bit more then 2 standard deviations above the norm. She did receive A's and B's on her report card because she spents 2 to 6 hours on homework and school work a day and because of what we do at home for her. With her IQ being so high, school shouldn't be as hard as it is for her.

jackiesolorzano

You are so right Jag, when our case is final and I know it will be in our favor, it will help all the other deaf kids in our SELPA. Actually, I just met with our attorney and he said that the school district asked for a settlement meeting, so I guessing that they are going to give in, then this will help all the other deaf kids behind us oral and signing.

jackiesolorzano

We do have all the standard accommdations such as setting closest to the teacher making sure her better hearing ear is towards the teachers. But come on a hackysack, in a classroom.

jackiesolorzano

You are so wrong. The first words that came out of my mouth when we heard the verdict was that now all the other deaf kids in our SELPA can get CART. But since you really do not know who I am and what I stand for you are just making judgement.

jackiesolorzano

I know that my daughter has not achieved her full potential. Her IQ is 2 standard deviations above the norm. She works really hard for her grades. What average student spends 2 to 6 hours a day on school work everyday. On most of her state tests, she falls in the below average range. These are clear signs she is not reaching her full potential.