Examples of 'ideal' educational and language environments for deaf children

This has been touched on before but I think only in threads that were deleted and gone: have any of you been or do you know of deaf people on this forum who were educated in the way that you would consider 'ideal?'

I think most of you were raised in mainstream environments, some at schools for the deaf, and a handful in different types of oral school environments. Some used spoken language, some sign, some SEE, some CS and so on at home while growing up. I know many of you have written about doing great DESPITE educational or language environments you think were awful. But I'm looking for people who think their educational and language environment contributed positively to who they are now, I'm looking for educational/language experiences that are good models for what has worked well (not cautionary tales of what your parents did wrong ).

I know that 'ideal' is subjective, and even though I'm hoping to see some examples where ASL and a bi-bi school were part of the mix, I'm really looking for any type of 'best case scenario,' so my request is not necessarily limited to the bi-bi approach we've chosen for the little one. But please let me know if you are an example of an educational and home language environment 'done right'. Thanks!

First: happy birthday to your little one, not sure when that was, must been recent.

Second: what is "done right"??? It's subjective. SilenceGold will come in here saying SEE rocks and he was raised ideally. If you want to hear stories of a deaf school sending a kid off to an university full time for the last two years of high school lemme know. I'll tell you my experiences...

Whats this for?

posts from hell said:

First: happy birthday to your little one, not sure when that was, must been recent.

Second: what is "done right"??? It's subjective. SilenceGold will come in here saying SEE rocks and he was raised ideally. If you want to hear stories of a deaf school sending a kid off to an university full time for the last two years of high school lemme know. I'll tell you my experiences...

Whats this for?

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Thanks -- Thursday was her big day: she's 5 , nearly out of the nest!

But if Silence Golden wants to chime in, that's OK with me, I want to get it straight from the horse's mouth and I'm not judging anyone's feelings about their background -- I just want to hear what environment has worked for different people. And I DID consider you an ideal model of a great educational/language experience but then you went and dashed my expectations by telling me you have succeeded DESPITE a SEE-based learning/language environment you do not back any longer.

It's really just for me, I'm coming across some young adult 'success stories' of deaf kids who took a particular approach and are happy, healthy, enjoying their path. But, I haven't seen any that have taken anything like the path we're taking -- I'm not afraid to pioneer a path that I believe in, but I'd also love to find someone who has come out on the other side of growing up after doing something similar. And I want to get a well-rounded set of examples of different approaches that work, regardless of whether or not it's what we do.

One only needs to look at the history books to see where everything is coming from.. Before SEE and Mainstream came along, deaf people had high employment levels and great English... This was with ASL.

I just feel that everything is muddled now. Politicians see deaf schools as a huge expensive thing because it shows big dollar bills on the paper, while they don't see the expenses on paper when it's spread out in public education system...

I would be more than glad to discuss this but I feel that you already know most of my story and I'll be biased as all hell. But if you have any questions, just hit me up.

posts from hell said:

One only needs to look at the history books to see where everything is coming from.. Before SEE and Mainstream came along, deaf people had high employment levels and great English... This was with ASL.

I just feel that everything is muddled now. Politicians see deaf schools as a huge expensive thing because it shows big dollar bills on the paper, while they don't see the expenses on paper when it's spread out in public education system...

I would be more than glad to discuss this but I feel that you already know most of my story and I'll be biased as all hell. But if you have any questions, just hit me up.

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Do you believe that the ASL-based environment is the same back then (before SEE/Mainstream came along as you said) as it is now? Education wise? Social wise?

Daredevel7 said:

Do you believe that the ASL-based environment is the same back then (before SEE/Mainstream came along as you said) as it is now? Education wise? Social wise?

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Completely different. Look at all the "deaf clubs" out there. Chances are that most of them were established between 1935-1965. Visit them, look at the bylaws and such. Chances are that they still have the original ones. Some of them still have women pay this much and men pays that much for memberships. Excellent thinking, structure and English in all of them.

Back then Deaf schools had extensive job training as well. They had farms, they had broom making, they had automotive, printing, etc etc. Kids were already trained for the working world when they graduated. These days zip, zlich.

Society oppression on the deaf has lessened a bit, but has a long ways to go.

posts from hell said:

Completely different. Look at all the "deaf clubs" out there. Chances are that most of them were established between 1935-1965. Visit them, look at the bylaws and such. Chances are that they still have the original ones. Some of them still have women pay this much and men pays that much for memberships. Excellent thinking, structure and English in all of them.

Back then Deaf schools had extensive job training as well. They had farms, they had broom making, they had automotive, printing, etc etc. Kids were already trained for the working world when they graduated. These days zip, zlich.

Society oppression on the deaf has lessened a bit, but has a long ways to go.

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You're absolutely right about the deaf club(s) being established a LONG time ago -- at least for here in Mpls/St. Paul. I can tell you, however, that has changed totally. It used to be the "old-timer's" hangout that none of us younger deaf people would be caught dead at. But something has changed within the last 5-10 years -- it is chock full of deaf people my age (40) or younger, and a big mix of education, training, etc. among all of us. It is a lot of fun to hang out there now.

AlleyCat said:

You're absolutely right about the deaf club(s) being established a LONG time ago -- at least for here in Mpls/St. Paul. I can tell you, however, that has changed totally. It used to be the "old-timer's" hangout that none of us younger deaf people would be caught dead at. But something has changed within the last 5-10 years -- it is chock full of deaf people my age (40) or younger, and a big mix of education, training, etc. among all of us. It is a lot of fun to hang out there now.

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Ive heard that. Good to know. Many others are shrugging the younguns off.

posts from hell said:

Completely different. Look at all the "deaf clubs" out there. Chances are that most of them were established between 1935-1965. Visit them, look at the bylaws and such. Chances are that they still have the original ones. Some of them still have women pay this much and men pays that much for memberships. Excellent thinking, structure and English in all of them.

Back then Deaf schools had extensive job training as well. They had farms, they had broom making, they had automotive, printing, etc etc. Kids were already trained for the working world when they graduated. These days zip, zlich.

Society oppression on the deaf has lessened a bit, but has a long ways to go.

Click to expand...

Wanted to add..many of my coworkers who have worked at deaf programs or schools for a long time say that today's kids are different. That there are more kids with language delays and deficits than in the old days before PL 94-104 was passed.

posts from hell said:

Completely different. Look at all the "deaf clubs" out there. Chances are that most of them were established between 1935-1965. Visit them, look at the bylaws and such. Chances are that they still have the original ones. Some of them still have women pay this much and men pays that much for memberships. Excellent thinking, structure and English in all of them.

Back then Deaf schools had extensive job training as well. They had farms, they had broom making, they had automotive, printing, etc etc. Kids were already trained for the working world when they graduated. These days zip, zlich.

Society oppression on the deaf has lessened a bit, but has a long ways to go.

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I remember a Deaf frind who refused to take courses like these because they were "vocational" jobs.

deafskeptic said:

I remember a Deaf frind who refused to take courses like these because they were "vocational" jobs.

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hows he doing?

AlleyCat said:

You're absolutely right about the deaf club(s) being established a LONG time ago -- at least for here in Mpls/St. Paul. I can tell you, however, that has changed totally. It used to be the "old-timer's" hangout that none of us younger deaf people would be caught dead at. But something has changed within the last 5-10 years -- it is chock full of deaf people my age (40) or younger, and a big mix of education, training, etc. among all of us. It is a lot of fun to hang out there now.

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Yeah, Thompson Hall, right?

My guess is across the board it is all crap. Deaf school or local district....no difference. Yes there are the exception, but overall - CRAP. You have schools, "professionals", etc. all creating a new method to teach the deaf because years ago people were unsuccessful....right? Read some of the educational journals - it is a disaster what they are doing to these kids treating them as guinea pigs.

Now you have the deaf adults who could give a CRAP about introducing Deaf children into the fold. ASL will die a quick death with the apathy. If it wasn't for hearing adults .... nothing would be done for Deaf children around the country......I've come to the conclusion that is a good thing.

Check out the scores - the lowest belong to the deaf school.
Hearing Impairments

posts from hell said:

hows he doing?

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I haven't seen her in years and I've not kept in touch with her so I dunno.

Gma said:

My guess is across the board it is all crap. Deaf school or local district....no difference. Yes there are the exception, but overall - CRAP. You have schools, "professionals", etc. all creating a new method to teach the deaf because years ago people were unsuccessful....right? Read some of the educational journals - it is a disaster what they are doing to these kids treating them as guinea pigs.

Now you have the deaf adults who could give a CRAP about introducing Deaf children into the fold. ASL will die a quick death with the apathy. If it wasn't for hearing adults .... nothing would be done for Deaf children around the country......I've come to the conclusion that is a good thing.

Check out the scores - the lowest belong to the deaf school.
Hearing Impairments

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and you know the selections of the students in VSDB? How did they get there?

and you know the selections of the students in VSDB? How did they get there

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Hehehehehehehe....exactly PFH...... What most people don't understand is that most kids at deaf schools aren't K-12ers. In many states deaf school is arbitarily picked as the "last resort...Many kids make amazing progress when they're finally placed there....but they still score low compared to kids who have gotten that quality of education for years and years.
And I had an entire EXTENSIVE post all written out, when my computer froze up.......GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

Back then Deaf schools had extensive job training as well. They had farms, they had broom making, they had automotive, printing, etc etc. Kids were already trained for the working world when they graduated. These days zip, zlich.

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Yes. But that's b/c schools for the deaf were seen as low skilled vocational centers....and broom making? Sure you're not mixing us up with Schools for the Blind? There are a few Deaf Schools with good vocational programs, Maryland School, Missouri, and Virginia School.........but yeah I agree with you. It seems like nowadays vocational programs are either an afterthought or more like training for service or menial jobs. Did you know even Clarke and CID had vocational programs back in the day?

Wanted to add..many of my coworkers who have worked at deaf programs or schools for a long time say that today's kids are different. That there are more kids with language delays and deficits than in the old days before PL 94-104 was passed.

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Yes, back in the old days, kids at deaf schools were behind public schools. Now with a wholesale one size fits all mainstreaming policy, you get a lot of kids falling though the cracks majorly!

Didn't want to have a novel long post, so dividing up my responses.

I'm hoping to see some examples where ASL and a bi-bi school were part of the mix,

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Well....bi-bi is still really new. I think they were putting on the finishing touches with this approach when I was still in school. Also, bi bi/deaf school with a kid who has hoh listening level abilties is really new. I do have to bring up something.
I think ASL and spoken English fluent kids will do the best overall.
Were you aware that there is a simlair sitution in Blind ed?
Braille is very much entwined with blind ed. People think all blind kids learn Braille. That used to be true back in the old days. In 1960 50% of all blind kids were taught in Braille. Nowadays it's only 10%.The tendancy was to use large print and books on tape and stuff like that...In other words low vision aids. It was thought that blind kids did not need Braille. I even have a friend who went to Perkins and didn't even get to learn Braille?!?!? The kicker? 90% of those who are Braille literate are employed?!?! Sound familiar?

Before SEE and Mainstream came along, deaf people had high employment levels and great English... This was with ASL.

I just feel that everything is muddled now. Politicians see deaf schools as a huge expensive thing because it shows big dollar bills on the paper, while they don't see the expenses on paper when it's spread out in public education system.

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You're right on mainstream...... Well maybe not mainstream programs, but then again those types of programs are really hit or miss. But you are dead on with solotaire mainstreaming. But SEE was only introduced in 1972. Before then it was ORAL, and in the later grades it was the combined system. (both speech and Sign) In the past century there was never exclusive use of ASL to teach dhh kids. It was very under the table.
And yeah I agree with you..........and one thing that politcians are missing is that while maisntreamed kids aren't in special schools, they're still acheiving in low rates on acheivement and exit exams. Disabled kids are a very common group to not pass or score low on acheivement exams.

This is part of the point. My grandson is stuck in a public school with two other students in his class that he has nothing other than deafness in common with, and the deaf in the state allowed the state to turn the state deaf school into a hell hole. WTF!!!

Gma said:

This is part of the point. My grandson is stuck in a public school with two other students in his class that he has nothing other than deafness in common with, and the deaf in the state allowed the state to turn the state deaf school into a hell hole. WTF!!!

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What makes you think the "deaf in the state" had any power?

Yeah, silly me. That would require them to take up a common cause for the good of the children and I guess that is not possible - but I be darn if they can't put together a DNO once a month.