Education/IEP/Literacy

jillio · 05-22-2007, 12:34 PM

Mod's Note: Those posts here are split up from other thread (Books about deafness & CI) You can resume this education/IEP etc here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Time allready has told. Some just haven't heared.

I agree. Literacy rates and educational results have not improved with oralism, and success has been seen with the use of sign and speech together, in a TC environment. Don't know why people can't "hear" what time has already told. (End of sarcasm).

R2D2 · 05-24-2007, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I agree. Literacy rates and educational results have not improved with oralism, and success has been seen with the use of sign and speech together, in a TC environment. Don't know why people can't "hear" what time has already told. (End of sarcasm).

So, are you saying that CIs in an oral setting has not resulted in any improvement at all in literacy and educational results when compared to the previous generation of comparable deaf children, also educated orally but with hearing aids etc?

Do you have any links to the abstracts of such studies? I would be interested.

Personally (and I must admit I don't have any studies to back me up) I feel that parental involvement is by far the biggest determinants of educational and literacy outcomes, regardless of the actual mode of education. Involved parents will get their children diagnosed early, push for the right program to suit their childrens' particular needs, will do lots of research, will push for extra help, bully teachers etc etc. It all adds up. It's no different to the educational achievements of hearing children, which is also strongly corelated to parental involvement.

Raykat · 05-24-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

\difference is: I have research and statistics to back my position up--not to mention experience with more than one deaf child.

And I have a whole extended deaf family, all oral, all well educated, well married to hearing spouses, and.....very important in my eyes......able to construct extremely grammatical sentences, something I see sadly missing in posts from users of asl.

However, my opinion is...to each their own........why does every thread in Alldeaf have to descend into sniping between oralists and signers.....this started off as a perfectly civilized thread regarding films and books.

Drew's Dad · 05-24-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

...able to construct extremely grammatical sentences, something I see sadly missing in posts from users of asl..

Would anyone care to comment on this issue? Is this because of the structure of the language, similar to how Spanish differs from English (i.e. "straw hat" v. "hat of straw")?

I don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings, but I have noticed that some ASL users have a very difficult time writing. Is it because they are writing as ASL sentences are structured while signing, rather than how English is written?

jillio · 05-24-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

And I have a whole extended deaf family, all oral, all well educated, well married to hearing spouses, and.....very important in my eyes......able to construct extremely grammatical sentences, something I see sadly missing in posts from users of asl.

However, my opinion is...to each their own........why does every thread in Alldeaf have to descend into sniping between oralists and signers.....this started off as a perfectly civilized thread regarding films and books.

Because there is a new resurgence towards oralism in this ocuntry, and deaf children's education is suffering as a result. It's great that your family has done well, but there are thousands of children out there who do not share your experience.

And being able to consrruct grammatically correct-or reasonable so-sentences does not indicate the amount of knowledge possessed.

Raykat · 05-24-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Because there is a new resurgence towards oralism in this ocuntry, and deaf children's education is suffering as a result. It's great that your family has done well, but there are thousands of children out there who do not share your experience.

And being able to consrruct grammatically correct-or reasonable so-sentences does not indicate the amount of knowledge possessed.

How does a resurgence in oralism cause a childs education to suffer?

I agree that being able to construct a sensible, understandable senteence does not indicate the amount of knowledge, witness the number of university students with degrees who can barely string a sentence together, not to mention the effect text messaging is having on our language. However a great deal of a deaf persons knowledge comes from books, therefore there is no excuse for poor grammar. I am afraid I am rather pedantic on this subject as the written word has given me so much enjoyment over the years, a nice turn of phrase is a delight indeed.

jillio · 05-24-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

How does a resurgence in oralism cause a childs education to suffer?

I agree that being able to construct a sensible, understandable senteence does not indicate the amount of knowledge, witness the number of university students with degrees who can barely string a sentence together, not to mention the effect text messaging is having on our language. However a great deal of a deaf persons knowledge comes from books, therefore there is no excuse for poor grammar. I am afraid I am rather pedantic on this subject as the written word has given me so much enjoyment over the years, a nice turn of phrase is a delight indeed.

Because history shows a positive correlation between oralism as the methodlogy of education and a reduction in literacy rates and non high school graduates. A resurgence will only serve to perpetrate that.

Raykat · 05-24-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Because history shows a positive correlation between oralism as the methodlogy of education and a reduction in literacy rates and non high school graduates. A resurgence will only serve to perpetrate that.

Correct me if I am wrong but the way I understand what you have said is......
the use of oralism (spoken word) reduces the use of the literacy (written word).....do you mean that by learning to speak a persons reading suffers?

jillio · 05-24-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raykat

Correct me if I am wrong but the way I understand what you have said is......
the use of oralism (spoken word) reduces the use of the literacy (written word).....do you mean that by learning to speak a persons reading suffers?

Well, not exactly. Whe oralism is the phiosophy used, far, far too often literacy and true education are sacrificed for the sake of speech. And the use of the spoken word does not necessarily translate to use of the written. Haven't you ever experience the situation of a child being pulled out of a classroom and missing instruction in science or math to be given speech therapy in the resource room. It unfortunately happens quite often here in the states. And yes, literacy suffers because the child has not formed a strong foundation in an L1 language, and therefore is incapable of learning another mode of a different language.

R2D2 · 05-24-2007, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Because history shows a positive correlation between oralism as the methodlogy of education and a reduction in literacy rates and non high school graduates. A resurgence will only serve to perpetrate that.

According to the literature provided in Boult's link, which cites a large number of recent studies, this doesn't appear to have occurred for children with CIs, when taken as a whole group. Children with CIs in both TC and oral programs appear to be doing well in literacy and education measures when compared to non CI children with similar controls, with the oral CI group appearing to have the edge.

Can you elaborate more on why you feel that CI deaf children (I assume you are referring to CI children here) will suffer declines in literacy if educated orally? Are you saying that you believe history prior to CIs will repeat itself?

I really am open to listening to your reasoning here.

Raykat · 05-24-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Well, not exactly. Whe oralism is the phiosophy used, far, far too often literacy and true education are sacrificed for the sake of speech. And the use of the spoken word does not necessarily translate to use of the written. Haven't you ever experience the situation of a child being pulled out of a classroom and missing instruction in science or math to be given speech therapy in the resource room. It unfortunately happens quite often here in the states. And yes, literacy suffers because the child has not formed a strong foundation in an L1 language, and therefore is incapable of learning another mode of a different language.

I spent many years hopping on my push bike and peddling from my wee church school to the big public school down the road for my twice weekly speech therapy, this was during primary school days. I dont think I missed out on any other part of my education by doing this.

Bottesini · 05-10-2008, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Well, not exactly. Whe oralism is the phiosophy used, far, far too often literacy and true education are sacrificed for the sake of speech. And the use of the spoken word does not necessarily translate to use of the written. Haven't you ever experience the situation of a child being pulled out of a classroom and missing instruction in science or math to be given speech therapy in the resource room. It unfortunately happens quite often here in the states. And yes, literacy suffers because the child has not formed a strong foundation in an L1 language, and therefore is incapable of learning another mode of a different language.

I was pulled out quite a lot for speech therapy, and still managed to grow up literate. I have not joined your discussions, but I am HOH mainstreamed and old, so grew up before latest scientific methods.

jillio · 05-10-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I was pulled out quite a lot for speech therapy, and still managed to grow up literate. I have not joined your discussions, but I am HOH mainstreamed and old, so grew up before latest scientific methods.

You are one of the lucky ones. There are always individual success stories within the larger group.

Growing up before the latest scientific methods could actually have been a benefit to you. For one thing, the educational system was, overall, functioning better. For another, fewer deaf students in the mainstream meant more time for more personalized service plans.

Bottesini · 05-10-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You are one of the lucky ones. There are always individual success stories within the larger group.

Growing up before the latest scientific methods could actually have been a benefit to you. For one thing, the educational system was, overall, functioning better. For another, fewer deaf students in the mainstream meant more time for more personalized service plans.

I admit that this is true. Also my parents worked hard with and for me.

vallee · 05-10-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You are one of the lucky ones. There are always individual success stories within the larger group.

.

Parental involvement does not involve luck! Hard work, love, effort, and time, not luck.

shel90 · 05-10-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vallee

Parental involvement does not involve luck! Hard work, love, effort, and time, not luck.

My mom was involved in mmy and my brother's education just like as u said but my brother ended up with language delays from the oral-only approach and didnt make it in the public school setting. I also ended up with socio-emotional scars. We didnt have luck on our side despite my mom's best efforts to be involved with our education.

However, I saw that Jillo made that post about this person being lucky before that person mentioned about his her parents being involved.

jillio · 05-10-2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vallee

Parental involvement does not involve luck! Hard work, love, effort, and time, not luck.

I did not say that parental involvement involved luck. I said that he was one of the lucky ones who survived the mainstream as well as he did. There are numeorus students who have just as much parental involvement who are unable to make it in the mainstream.

jillio · 05-10-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

My mom was involved in mmy and my brother's education just like as u said but my brother ended up with language delays from the oral-only approach and didnt make it in the public school setting. I also ended up with socio-emotional scars. We didnt have luck on our side despite my mom's best efforts to be involved with our education.

However, I saw that Jillo made that post about this person being lucky before that person mentioned about his her parents being involved.

Quite true. And you will also see that his first sentence in the reply was, "I admit this is true." I mentioned more in my post than the fact that he was one of the lucky ones.

loml · 05-10-2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vallee

Parental involvement does not involve luck! Hard work, love, effort, and time, not luck.

jillio · 05-10-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Perhaps you should go back and re-read the posts, as well.

shel90 · 05-10-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I did not say that parental involvement involved luck. I said that he was one of the lucky ones who survived the mainstream as well as he did. There are numeorus students who have just as much parental involvement who are unable to make it in the mainstream.

and yet people still continue to ignore this issue. I just have the feeling that as long as there are some successes in the mainstream, everything is all good. There is something seriously wrong with the picture. However, I am one of the few who wont ever ignore that fact and actually working with those kids on a daily basis that the mainstreamed programs failed.

jillio · 05-10-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

and yet people still continue to ignore this issue. I just have the feeling that as long as there are some successes in the mainstream, everything is all good. There is something seriously wrong with the picture. However, I am one of the few who wont ever ignore that fact and actually working with those kids on a daily basis that the mainstreamed programs failed.

That is exactly why I said that Bottessini was one of the lucky ones. While parental involvement is not a matter of luck, unless of course, you consider the fact that some kids are born to parents who are involved, and some aren't, and there is no rhyme or reason to that. However, success requires a number of things being present, parental involvement being only one of them. There is also teacher competence, the nature of the school district, and personality variable of both the deaf child and the hearing peers with whom they attend school. For everything to come together at one time and in one place is indeed lucky. And all too rare.

vallee · 05-10-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

and yet people still continue to ignore this issue. I just have the feeling that as long as there are some successes in the mainstream, everything is all good. There is something seriously wrong with the picture. However, I am one of the few who wont ever ignore that fact and actually working with those kids on a daily basis that the mainstreamed programs failed.

So all mainstream programs fail??
I work with special education children in mainstream programs and while I see success and failure with children. I work daily to improve the success for the children, not blame. There are many factors involve in any educational setting and programs.

half full - half empty
mainstream - deaf education
each has its own failures and successes.

shel90 · 05-10-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vallee

So all mainstream programs fail??
I work with special education children in mainstream programs and while I see success and failure with children. I work daily to improve the success for the children, not blame. There are many factors involve in any educational setting and programs.

half full - half empty
mainstream - deaf education
each has its own failures and successes.

I meant to say that the mainstreamed failed them. I didnt say "all".

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