Why the discrepancies between ASL and English?

[jenni-m]

so, what is the point you're trying to prove?

reba is right, no one can judge our language by number. like vampy said, we don't have adverbs, articles, props and so many more in our language. we don't even have 500,000 fingers, just ten and they hearies have more than 30 teeth along with a tongue drumming them and over 40 soundtones plus millions of drum hairs in ears where they compromise with english so of course can we say they have more than us?

in fact, 60% of ASL we use our body language and facial expressions which is why we have fewer words in dictionary. if our hands are tied behind us and only we are to communicate with our facial expressions, we could go on conversing like normal, no words at all. totally seperate from gestures because most of our facial expressions aren't univerisal. so only visual languages, ASL/LSF/AUSLAN/ETC., all in one is special, nothing like other spoken languages. period. so unlikely english, there are so much unnecessary words that are missing.

you want 10,000? okay, sum up traditional ASL, west/east/south/north ASL and as well as other countries such like france that uses ASL too (as our language is always changing in time), I'm sure you'll find more than 20,000 or so.

but again, numbers don't matter and why the discrepancies? because people like you are making it more complicated! seriously, chunk these links out dear, as you can see it only (says) sees basics! ASL is OUR language, end of discussion. I don't care what they "think", "see" or "discover".. otherwise we'd be unable to converse our needs at all. and, obviously, to understand "the discrepancies", you'll have to be deaf to understand.

Again, numbers are not my point, though your comment about 20,000 signs was helpful to my cause. Where are they?
And I am not making it more complicated than necessary. In fact, nothing I quoted was in the least 'complicated', not even a little bit complicated.

Languages are not an island. What works for you is only "just fine" up until you have to talk to someone else who doesn't quite 'get' it. If you can't get them to understand you due to a language that isn't developed and documented to its full potential, then don't cry about isolation, because it is not their fault that they do not have sufficient theory or documentation available.

 

[August]

why the discrepancies?


maybe...

because they're different languages?

:Owned:

WHAT NOW, SON!?

 

[jenni-m]

why the discrepancies?


maybe...

because they're different languages?

:Owned:

WHAT NOW, SON!?

DAMIT!@

Why WHY WHY

Do I have to spell things out in some other way? I'm sorry, but I can't do that. If you had read (and comprehended) the things I wrote and quoted up to now...

you would see that I am fighting FOR ASL AS A SEPARATE, LEGITIMATE LANGUAGE WHICH NEEDS TO BE TAKEN JUST AS SERIOUSLY AS EVERY OTHER LANGUAGE.

This might mean people have to... God forbid... EXAMINE IT compared to OTHER LANGUAGES if they want to GET ANYWHERE IN HAVING IT ACCEPTED AS A VIABLE AND TRUE LANGUAGE that other people actually will learn and have taught more in schools.

AM I plain enough yet? Or do you just want to go on making assumptions based on whatever convenient part of what I am saying which you are apparently getting stuck on?

And I don't appreciate assumptions that I'd "have to be deaf" (which I am) or that I am a complete idiot who knows nothing (which I am not).

I don't make these assumptions about other people. I write what I write, in the way I am comfortable writing it. I don't just assume that people are too ignorant to understand it (because that is condescending, and wrong).

 

[August]

DAMIT!@

Why WHY WHY

Do I have to spell things out in some other way? I'm sorry, but I can't do that. If you had read (and comprehended) the things I wrote and quoted up to now...

you would see that I am fighting FOR ASL AS A SEPARATE, LEGITIMATE LANGUAGE WHICH NEEDS TO BE TAKEN JUST AS SERIOUSLY AS EVERY OTHER LANGUAGE.

that's all well and good

but

the fact that it's a different language still accounts for the discrepancies.

OOOOH, SNAP!

:Owned:

 

[jenni-m]

that's all well and good

but

the fact that it's a different language still accounts for the discrepancies.

OOOOH, SNAP!

:Owned:

No. It doesn't. That's where you went wrong.
The discrepancy I am looking at is the fact that it is not well documented, or well taught. (from what I can see, anyway)

Why do you think these threads keep popping up on "how do you sign this?" "well, this is how I do it". Which is fine and great. Interpretation is a great part of ASL. I have looked at some poetry in ASL, and the way things can be conveyed is awesome and nearly limitless. But the people outside are missing out on this, not to mention confusion within the language itself. These things should be studied and documented, by people who use the language.

And I'm not even saying it has to be written solely in text. It could be captured on video (like a lot of ASL dictionaries do)

It is not enough to learn through immersion, especially if you want to be understood by others who can't get that immersion.

 

[August]

 

[freckles]

Again, numbers are not my point, though your comment about 20,000 signs was helpful to my cause. Where are they?
And I am not making it more complicated than necessary. In fact, nothing I quoted was in the least 'complicated', not even a little bit complicated.

Languages are not an island. What works for you is only "just fine" up until you have to talk to someone else who doesn't quite 'get' it. If you can't get them to understand you due to a language that isn't developed and documented to its full potential, then don't cry about isolation, because it is not their fault that they do not have sufficient theory or documentation available.

then don't include numbers. I was speaking of in general, according to what was most brought up in your original post. still, as said in reba's post - it still has something to do with statisitics anyway.

to understand FULLY, jenni. I know you're deaf (and blind, I've saw in your profile) but enough as us to understand the discrepancies to figure out yourself? I don't know. again, see and yes, I am restricted, limited to english here to answer you and if you "speak" ASL, we'd may, if by any chance, discuss better in person because you as well assumed what I said was with a bad intention. so, blame it to language? or isolation? or freckles?

sorry I can't help here. and by the way yes, people >>like<< you who question this kind of thing, unable to figure or even prove yourself is making it more complicated. can you not? it's not our fault that they isolated our language either.

[letting go the rope], don't prejudice us by how we "speak" englishly.

 

[jenni-m]

then don't include numbers. I was speaking of in general, according to what was most brought up in your original post. still, as said in reba's post - it still has something to do with statisitics anyway.

to understand FULLY, jenni. I know you're deaf (and blind, I've saw in your profile) but enough as us to understand the discrepancies to figure out yourself? I don't know. again, see and yes, I am restricted, limited to english here to answer you and if you "speak" ASL, we'd may, if by any chance, discuss better in person because you as well assumed what I said was with a bad intention. so, blame it to language? or isolation? or freckles?

sorry I can't help here. and by the way yes, people >>like<< you who question this kind of thing, unable to figure or even prove yourself is making it more complicated. can you not? it's not our fault that they isolated our language either.

[letting go the rope], don't prejudice us by how we "speak" englishly.

I'm sorry.
It is not just prejudice.
This right here is a good example.
I do know a little ASL (not a lot) and can read so called "ASL English" passably.

And yes, I can figure out the discrepancies, based on real world logic which applies to everyone whether they want it to or not.

It is not only prejudice.
Compromises need to be made, a bit.
ASL is very 'private', as it is, to me. A lot of things are taught in the home, and picked up locally just by using it, and I have seen an attitude that other people are 'outsiders'.

This does not help to 'un-isolate' the language.

Like for example, someone asked how to sign "forum", in another thread.
It turned out that people have signs for that word, but it seems it was not easy to reference, because they had to come here and ask for it.

Things go both ways. If we do not make an attempt to put the language 'out there' in more solid forms, then people will be even less inclined to care about it, and will continue to have the attitude that "it is just something deaf people do because they can't hear".

 

[freckles]

yeah, not 'just' prejudice. you had to say that huh. again, I have no words that justifies to my thoughts.

I understood that, yet, isolated or not, either way and whenever they finally consider it as a language 'out there', our language will always be isolated. for one, it's different from all different languages. for example, the example you used - a person might came here to see what's the sign for "forum" in west. or south. just like "how do you pronounce it?"

who knows. and I know one day, it will be valided... with time. we have so much to educate and still working on this but as long as we have ASL interpreters almost everywhere now.

 

[jenni-m]

yeah, not 'just' prejudice. you had to say that huh? again, I have no words that justifies to my thoughts.

I understood that, isolated or not, either way and whenever they finally consider it as a language 'out there', our language will always be isolated. for one, it's different from all different languages. for example, the example you used - a person might came here to see what's the sign for "forum" in west. or south. just like "how do you pronounce it?"

who knows. and I know one day, it will be valided... in time.

Yes, it is quite different, I am not denying that.
It is very traditional, and very deep, and as pointed out, a lot of things simply aren't said in English words, quite the same way, and many things are figerspelled, etc.

And yes, it will be more valid, given time.

I guess it is hard for you to say what you want to, and it is hard for me to say what I want to.

It might look like I am good with English, but really I am not, compared to other people... which is why my first post was so strange, I was doing the best I could at that time, and using what other people said about it to narrow it down. Some times I get out what I want to say the first time, some times it takes longer. I know tons of words but I don't always know which ones to choose for best effect... and it can get frustrating for me.

Anyway... um.
I don't know if I can say things another way to make myself more clear. I'm running out of ideas.

 

[freckles]

*chuckles* ..but one thing for sure, is, you're better than me. still, I don't envy you - englibberish is not my thing. at all and it baffles me to no end. I even once attempted commit over it - stupid communication barriers.

so, my point is, while supporting your idea, HOW can we have them understand us? like you said, it's two way thing however, along with reba, we need more ASL people. we're beating an apple with oranges if you get what I mean.

 

[jenni-m]

*chuckles* ..but one thing for sure, is, you're better than me. englibberish is NOT my thing. at all and it baffles me to no end. I even once attempted committ over it.

so, my point is, while supporting your idea, HOW can we have them understand us? like you said, it's two way thing however, along with reba, we need more ASL people. we're beating an apple with oranges if you get what I mean.

This helped, right there.

How can we be understood?
First, look at how other people understand.
Study the linguistics of other languages.
Just like there is a separate logic to ASL (being a visual language) there is a logic to a spoken and written language.

Appeal to their logic.
Put things 'in their face' in a meaningful way, so that it cannot be ignored.

A lot of people encounter many other spoken languages, they recognize them, recognize how they work and how they originated, and who uses them.

But, many people do not encounter ASL. A large majority only know that it exists, and nothing beyond that. Many people have never known a deaf person in their whole life, and have not seen more than a few moments of ASL in action, let alone ASL 'literature' (and especially not something as 'abstract' as ASL poetry).

Create awareness in people. One by one, if you have to.

Some people end up being interested in it, and come to an ASL speaker or teacher to learn it, or get a teaching book or program. But a lot of people simply don't care, because they don't need to care, they never really encounter the language so never bother to become educated about it.

 

[freckles]

well, actually jenni, in my question, I guess, I was trying to imply the problem. the problem is? I have. all above you said. we have.

I was an ASL instructor for 3 years and forever in heart but, a person can't do one too much. even though ASL awareness is expanding - which is great - I believed we need more 'educators'.

that being said, is why I didn't 'get' your first post in first place expecting you'll understand our, my (another) perspective of discrepancies without an explanatio.

 

[jenni-m]

well, actually jenni, in my question, I guess, I was trying to imply the problem. the problem is? I have. all above you said.

I was an ASL instructor for 3 years and forever in heart but, a person can't do one too much. even though ASL awareness is expanding - which is great - I believed we need more 'educators'.

that being said, is why I didn't 'get' your first post in first place expecting you'll understand our, my (another) perspective of discrepancies.

That's the thing, you helped me see another point.

I don't watch television, generally, but I can somehow imagine that there are no advertisements for Deaf products on it.

Want to know what to do?
Make an ASL story, or collection of ASL poetry. Record it on DVD, with interpretation or subtitles, and call it a 'video book in ASL'. Advertise it on television, in speech along with ASL.

Make more videos on YouTube, and other video sites, and make sure they are subtitled.

Make reports and journals, and other critical works, in ASL, publish them in a very public way.

I notice how people love to say ASL is a separate language. While this is true, it is still American Sign Language. American. English may be the American official language, but ASL is the choice of many who can't speak English, because they are deaf. This is why I am yelling about discrepancies, and why we have such advanced English dictionaries, books, and papers easily available, and only very basic ASL material. Yet people are living in the same country!!

But like Reba said, it is about money. But somebody needs to 'bite the bullet' and start spending for benefit of society rather than profit returns.

 

[freckles]

yes and given time too! you're so right about america but, not to remind you, speaking visually and sonically is different. especially when deafies were "dumb" so it has prolonged our awareness and education to today.

there are TONS of vlogs about ASL on youtubes already in despite of right now that we're grapes, still small in pieces, but in the end with everyone's help we will make a good wine.

cheers.

 

[jenni-m]

yes and given time too! you're so right about america but, not to remind you, speaking visually and sonically is different. especially when deafies were "dumb" so it has prolonged our awareness and education to today.

there are TONS of vlogs about ASL on youtubes already in despite of right now that we're grapes, still small in pieces, but in the end with everyone's help we will make a good wine.

cheers.

Yeah.
I guess my real question all along is...
Why aren't people working even harder and faster on it?

It's actually a bit amazing for me how I just went full circle and condensed all this down to one question... heh.

Anyway, sorry to be a bother.

 

[Jolie77]

Yeah.
I guess my real question all along is...
Why aren't people working even harder and faster on it?

It's actually a bit amazing for me how I just went full circle and condensed all this down to one question... heh.

Anyway, sorry to be a bother.

Don't be a bother. I found this thread quite interesting. It got me to think of few things.

While the vast of the majority uses English, ASL is still in the stage of being low on the totem pole and it is still climbing up it's way. As you may have already know this, ASL is not a written language. It is a visual language. I think it all comes down to this because you see, any other languages (except for ASL/ and other sign languages) are already a written language. It is easier to work on the semantics and pragmatism which means it is easier to convey it into different words or so and on. Now, when we have a visual language, it is already a mind boggle trying to make it a written language. To make a visual language into a written language only complicates things. There are already works in progress for a "signwriting" (which is wonderful, yes) but however, it is not exactly the real deal of ASL itself.

Just saying.

 

[jenni-m]

Don't be a bother. I found this thread quite interesting. It got me to think of few things.

While the vast of the majority uses English, ASL is still in the stage of being low on the totem pole and it is still climbing up it's way. As you may have already know this, ASL is not a written language. It is a visual language. I think it all comes down to this because you see, any other languages (except for ASL/ and other sign languages) are already a written language. It is easier to work on the semantics and pragmatism which means it is easier to convey it into different words or so and on. Now, when we have a visual language, it is already a mind boggle trying to make it a written language. To make a visual language into a written language only complicates things. There are already works in progress for a "signwriting" (which is wonderful, yes) but however, it is not exactly the real deal of ASL itself.

Just saying.

Definitely, which is an obstacle.
It can be done, however, because I feel that basic, governing logic is the same everywhere.

Writing was not around forever, things used to be purely oral, (and there may have been a time when it was not even more than simple 'grunting'), then drawn in pictures, pictures became glyphs, glyphs evolved into alphabets, alphabets were used to make words.

If any basic concept can be drawn in a picture or a sequence, it can be translated into anything else.

Direct comparison may not always be possible, but a 'helper comparison' through simplification and THEN conversion, can make it possible every time, in my mind.