What do you suppose is main reason of problem with English..

[Audiofuzzy]

.. for deaf people? And the problem with spoken and written language is not limited to English, it is common problem for every deaf person in every language to be able to write and speak as fluently as a hearing person.

Sign language is as rich and expressive as any language but is just different, and in my opinion the problem lies in bad way of teaching English in schools.

In my opinion, "proper" English language should be enforced since kindergarten up to graduating form highs school.

Heck, I would even demand extra classes of english.

Why? because it is important part of our lives, our education, and increases our ability to communicate with hearing world.

what do you think?

Fuzzy

 

[rjr2006]

I sent you PM

 

[apathrev]

Because English is not the main language for the deaf community. ASL and English are 2 completely different languages, with different syntaxes. Do a little research on ASL, and you will easily learn this. Between writing and signing, is it really fair to expect someone to switch syntaxes?

In the way English is spoken and written, the most widely used format is subject, verb, object. With ASL, the syntax is verb, object, subject, if I remember right. Someone please correct on this. I'm going on what I can remember from job training.

 

[kuifje75]

I have observed that a lot of hearing teenagers and young people at the college where I work do not have a command on the English language as much as we would like to think so. I do not think that English literacy is an exclusively Deaf issue, but an issue that everyone must work together to address it, for both hearing and deaf people to improve their English.

 

[apathrev]

As much as I have to deal with the crowd that kuifje75 is talking about, and the deaf community at the same time, I can testify, that hearing young persons have just as many grammar and spelling problems with English as much as any deaf person. I can't tell you how many times I've made some idiot prankster look like an ass because he can't spell or use correct grammar for beans. But to be fair to the ass hat nation of relay abusers, I purposely try to make them look like idiots whenever possible.

 

[rjr2006]

With ASL, the syntax is verb, object, subject, if I remember right. Someone please correct on this. I'm going on what I can remember from job training.

yes, that is right.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

>>Between writing and signing, is it really fair to expect someone to switch syntaxes? <<

I believe it is, because like with every other language you are expected to learn the language of the country you live in.
For example I had to learn English when I came to Canada, and I did.

People who have a knack for languages often learn many different ones, and these languages do often have different syntaxes.

The deaf world's language is like a "foreing" language in an English speaking country.
Of course you are not obligated to learn perfect English if you don't wish but I believe learning proper English would offer everyone enormous advantages.

For example my deaf friend who didn't speak "proper' English missed all the funny points in comedies when not a situation but words' play was the funny thing.
Likewise, he didn't enjoy movies where it was important to follow the dialogues because he simply didn't understand written English. So he didn't get the plot.

And often when you go to say, a dr office or wherever and you don't have an interpreter it's hard to communicate.
TTY relay service told me once since they are obligated to relay "word for word", people who the deaf trying to communicate with often do not understand what the deaf are saying... it's frustrating to everyone.

That's why I believe if deaf children are taught since very early, switching syntaxes would be a breeze..

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

>>>hearing young persons have just as many grammar and spelling problems with English as much as any deaf person.<<

I have to respectfully disagree, because while it's true that hearing people too make a lot of spelling mistakes and grammar too, they do follow basic sentence structure that makes them understandable.
Whereas deaf people, their mistakes are not so much spelling as out of order sentence sequence.

Somebody somewhere gave an excellent example of "the sun prevents tree from....??"

That's what I am talking about- no hearing person would build a sentence this way.

Fuzzy

 

[deafdyke]

they do follow basic sentence structure that makes them understandable.
Whereas deaf people, their mistakes are not so much spelling as out of order sentence sequence.

Actually it depends. A lot of hearing people I know cannot articulate themselves very well in writing. It's like "HUH? WHAT were you trying to say?"
Deaf people tend to approach English as a SECOND language. They make the same errors as do speakers of other languages who approach English as a second language. Look at a posting written in English by someone whose native language is French, Spanish or whatever. Some of the postings/literature/contructions I've seen make the worst postings I've seen here, look like they were written by someone who writes on a Harvard level!

 

[apathrev]

Actually it depends. A lot of hearing people I know cannot articulate themselves very well in writing. It's like "HUH? WHAT were you trying to say?"
Deaf people tend to approach English as a SECOND language. They make the same errors as do speakers of other languages who approach English as a second language. Look at a posting written in English by someone whose native language is French, Spanish or whatever. Some of the postings/literature/contructions I've seen make the worst postings I've seen here, look like they were written by someone who writes on a Harvard level!

Who cares if no hearing person would build a sentence that way? I have to read out ASL syntax all day long, and you know what? There has one been 1 case since I began working as a relay operator where someone has not understood the meaning of the sentence.

You're basically saying "deaf people need to learn English if they're going to communicate with us hearing people." "Bad English" is not a problem with the deaf community, as it appears you are trying to make it. When communicating with hearing people, it is not fair to expect the deaf person to be completely familiar with all the grammatical rules of English. As hearing people, we use the complete same set of syntax and grammatical rules and for speaking and writing, If we were expected to switch syntaxes when changing forms of communication, do you think others would expect perfection from us?

 

[kuifje75]

In the way English is spoken and written, the most widely used format is subject, verb, object. With ASL, the syntax is verb, object, subject, if I remember right. Someone please correct on this. I'm going on what I can remember from job training.

No, that is not correct. ASL is a SOV language, or subject-object-verb.

The usual grammar rule is like this:

TIME + TOPIC + VERB/COMMENT

Example:

YESTERDAY MOVIE ME SEE.
English= "I saw the movie yesterday."

When there is no TIME sign, then you add "FINISH"

MOVIE ME SEE FINISH.
(I saw the movie.)

 

[Audiofuzzy]

>>MOVIE ME SEE FINISH.
(I saw the movie.)<<<

That's exactly what I had in mind. Hearing people does not talk or write like that. Even if they are bad at grammar and spelling.

Please, by debating this subject and expressing my opinion I do not intend to say that hearing people are better than deaf. They are not!
I am simply saying deaf world is a minority in a society where majority uses "hearing" English.

And the deaf people, when they do not know "hearing" English well, are only depriving themselves of this way of communication.
I already gave you an example of all the fun lost while watching movie because of the English.

From my personal experience - I was often frustrated communicating with my deaf friend because of ASL different syntax.
I do not sign, and please keep in mind majority of people do not either.

I couldn't get my point accross because he didn't understand the grammar and order in which I was speaking.

I witnessed once his frustration trying to set up a dental appmnt over the TTY.
both he and the dentist assistant couldn't understand each other for a while.

And then there was this survey at school which I am unable to recreate but the questions were sounding alike and yet their meaning was completely different. he just couldn't get it.
he replied to all with the same "fine". Which was not a correct reply to everything.

I am saying - it is not the deaf people fault they use ASL and that ASL is different,
nor am I saying ASL is worse than spoken English because it is not.

I am saying deaf people would benefit from knowing English well, but yes it requires some work.

But if one is taught from very early age it, it becomes automatic.


>>"Bad English" is not a problem with the deaf community, as it appears you are trying to make it<<

well this is delicate subject, undoubtedly, so before you jump all over me please hear me out- first.

I believe "Bad English" is a problem for the deaf community, for many reasons.
First, the deaf themselves are unable to use it whenever it calls for,
for example because of inadeqate English they may not " quite get it" while studying at school and therefore get lower marks than they deserve.

I was trying to help my friend to prepare for written drivers licence test and it was pretty stressful. The way he understood the text was not always correct and therefore his answers weren't either. It was a lot of work for him , a simple test.

Then again yes I see your side "why would the deaf people do everything for hearing", and not the other way.
Well I guess because learning English is possible for everyone so why not. Once again, if it is done early it's not a struggle. And we are in a hearing world, not they in ours.

It's not like asking to everyone please implant CI so hearing people won't have to try harder to be understood. English does not change your body or anything.

And, as I've said before many times, we live in a hearing world and it would be simply easier for US to know English well.


Fuzzy

ps - I am sure my grammar sucks a lot, English is my second language and all the "the"s and "an's" and "a's" is a hit and miss game for me

 

[Liza]

I think it's an easy mistake to confuse ASL and English, assuming ASL really is a part of English. I don't know where this comes from... perhaps a sense of nationalistic pride that only English is given the attention at an early age?

When my niece told me that children in norwegian schools usually learn norwegian AND english at a young age, and then german is learned in the 7th grade - I was embarassed how some people insist on English being the only thing taught in those grammar schools in USA! High school is entirely a different matter. But grammar/elementary school?! There is NO room for other languages other than English in USA. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Let me know!

 

[Liza]

on the other hand, i'm also familiar with a handful of norwegian natives who are horrible at norwegian while some are good at norwegian - both deaf and hearing. go figure!

Do you think it might be the location? Small town vs city? As in small towns having a higher chance of having bad norwegian skills than those in the city?

 

[kuifje75]

When my niece told me that children in norwegian schools usually learn norwegian AND english at a young age, and then german is learned in the 7th grade - I was embarassed how some people insist on English being the only thing taught in those grammar schools in USA! High school is entirely a different matter. But grammar/elementary school?! There is NO room for other languages other than English in USA. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Let me know!

Actually, in the school back in my hometown, they do teach Spanish alongside with English. My goddaughter knows some Spanish herself, and she's 9. It does depend on which school district you send your kids to.

That is true about European schools, remember Liebling's sons learned English and they are still in grade school. It's odd though because Chinese is probably the number one used language in the world, yet we still learn English.

 

[kuifje75]

on the other hand, i'm also familiar with a handful of norwegian natives who are horrible at norwegian while some are good at norwegian - both deaf and hearing. go figure!

Do you think it might be the location? Small town vs city? As in small towns having a higher chance of having bad norwegian skills than those in the city?

That is a possibility... if you are talking about redneck English versus proper English

ASL is not based on English, and never will be. That is why some Deaf people have troubles with their English. I don't think it's because of the language, but rather because of the byproduct of their education where the teachers never bothered teaching them the differences between English and ASL. I know many multi-generation deaf families whose English are really awesome, and their primary mode of communication is ASL.

On the other hand, you might have your lone deaf person in a hearing family who never really received the full support that he could have had. There are some families who just simply think that its "good enough" that he reads and write, and don't bother correcting nor explaining him the grammar. I am a deaf person in a hearing family, and my family made every effort to have my English corrected and explained to me why it was corrected. They made sure I understood why.

Also, it is my observation that hearing teachers only focus on the ability to read lips and speak clearly, that they neglect the other areas such as explaining grammar and sentence structures to the students. So, you might have a so-called "model" deaf student who can speak and read lips great, but look at his writing... ugh...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Yes, that's right.

My eldest son start to learn English in 5th grade, then one year later change back to 3rd grade, my young son learn in 3rd grade.

We only have English in any school except French. The reason that German government wants the children to learn English in any schools because of English lanuage in the world. There're only French to learn in grammar school for the students who start from 5 grade.

 

[kuifje75]

Also, learning ASL does not mean that your English will suffer.

If you learn two or three languages at same time, especially when you are young, you see the different grammar rules and how things are said.

For example:

English: Yesterday I have bought a new car.
German: Yesterday have I a new car bought. (Gestern habe ich ein neues Auto gekauft.)
French: Yesterday, I have bought a car new. (Hier, j'ai achete une voiture nouvelle.)

It doesn't mean that the French or German speaker is wrong. It only depends on how the person is educated and that it is explained to them that grammar and structure are different between languages.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

yes, that's right K75.

Something like that.

Liebst Du mich? - Love you me (Translation: Do you love me?).

Wir fuhren gestern nach München. We drove yesterday to Munich (Translation: We drove to Munich yesterday).

Dort in München war die Stimmung toll. There in Munich was the mood super (Translation: There was a tremendous mood in Munich).

Ich muß einkaufen gehen - I must to shopping go (Translation: I have to go to the shopping).

You will know what German's grammar is when you translate into English grammar.

 

[Reba]

...
English: Yesterday I have bought a new car.

Oops.
"Yesterday, I bought a new car."


Yes, English is tricky.