We. Have. A. Big. Problem.

[Bebonang]

I applauding Amy Cohen Efron made her several good points. She have me contemplating her debate.

That is the reason why she does not approve of hearing people using ASL as foreign language and using the sign language like ASL for themselves and to teach ASL to hearing students only. She mentioned that hearing people removed d/Deaf not use ASL and to make them study oral method. That is why she said that ASL is for the Deaf only and it is theirs in their Deaf Communities.

This is to help you understand what is happening to our d/Deaf students in mainstream schools and Deaf schools where there are hearing people trying to separate them from their Deaf Culture. Yes, Amy Cohen made good points on what we have all been suffered under the hearing society. A lot of hearing parents and authorities do not understand us and our deafness. They have never experience being deaf themselves so why they forced us to be like them. That is the problem.

 

[rnock30]

My wife is spanish teacher. she told me they have deaf students and hearing students took ASL I and II together in her High School. I ask her why deaf students? She said ASL teacher told her few of deaf students using english sign language, others dont know sign, and some know little bit asl, they not know much about ASL. WoW i didn't know. i was student and i never been in class with hearing students for ASL.

 

[Reba]

My wife is spanish teacher. she told me they have deaf students and hearing students took ASL I and II together in her High School. I ask her why deaf students? She said ASL teacher told her few of deaf students using english sign language, others dont know sign, and some know little bit asl, they not know much about ASL. WoW i didn't know. i was student and i never been in class with hearing students for ASL.

It's true that mainstreamed deaf students don't usually get formal ASL instruction. Hearing students get English grammar, writing and literature classes. Deaf students don't get ASL classes. They should have Deaf adult instructors teach them about ASL language and Deaf history and culture, including Deaf ASL humor and storytelling. Deaf storytelling is ASL literature.

 

[Swedeafa]

I just want to state that I am not argumentive...I am learning and I accept I may be wrong...but talking g and debating a topic is how I learn along with reading. so remember I am not arguing with you and at no point do I mean to upset anyone...



This is very helpful and a good thing. I do not know much of Sweden, do you have a recommended reading?
It does seem from what you say they are on the right track. Community can be defined in multiple ways so distance really is not a factor, once one is established.

But at the same go...with the closing of deaf schools, ci, and mainstreaming people are later in life to become part of it or do not learn about it. And I have noticed once you do learn about it, there are people to teach and help lead you through it.



All cultures do change...it is only a matter of time and influence.... CI users should not be excluded, however...I notice I am starting to form a thought that may become a belief... Please understand I am learning and know this will seem beyond rude, and it is not my intent.
But CI users will eventually and deserve their own culture ... They experience things differently and eventual they should be separate cultures ... I want to say kind of like US and Canada but that is saying it wrong... Okay, CI and unimplanted deaf...both are deaf but their lives, struggles, accomplishments, and mentality will form different personalities, arts, literatures, and the use of sign is different.... CI users and none already have heated debates and CI users seem to be.... Seen as hearing wanta-bees by others... While other CI users are seen as okay...I am not sure what makes the difference or if it is that they are CI users. It is only something I have noticed and accept that this may be wrong... I do accept that I am missing thing and could be stepping on toes and I am not meaning to...



Europe as a whole seems to me as a mixed bag... While many countries are improving, they are also putting in steps that remove or have maintained the deaf people from influencing things....read recently that Germany banned sign until 2002 and is only recently moved it in... But instead of using German sign (believe it is called DGS) it was debated that ASL and BSL be used instead and in some regions (do not know about all) that is what was used... This cannot be good for their deaf culture that has already suffered so much through many struggles... Their schools are almost all mainstreamed and oral...
So while sign can be accepted it can also cause issue.... The other thing I have noticed is that while sign is more accepted, it seems that it is more acceptable for a hearing child or person to learn sign than it is for the deaf child or adult. Some people seem to see sign as more of an art then an actual language of a culture... While I will agree much like the written word some are more artistic in their sign then others...others throughout time have also approached it in an almost religious tone... But accepting sign is a huge step but it can also lead to the perversion of it if not handled correctly...and in this I believe the deaf should have the main say...yet they are kept out as far as I know.



No truer words could be used...right now it does seem a time of influx it has happened several times in history but now with CI at no other time has deaf culture been more at risk. The deaf need to have a say but it seems to me, and is my main curiosity, what are/can the deaf do?
Networking and education is the key, but right now the ones holding the master key seems to be people following the ones that want us all to be a single unit/culture/society and that would mean to kill deaf culture and regulate it to history books and a museums...

I don't have time for a long reply, sorry. The discussion here is great and thought provoking. As for reading tips I agree with the others about Limping Chicken being a good blog to follow.

If you are worried about the future of Deaf culture, I think Sweden might be a good study subject. We have tax funded health care, which means that most children who can have a CI get it. There are very few new fully deaf people here. (I assume in some other countries some people cannot afford CI, and there is a larger percentage of fully deaf simply for financial reasons.) This means that the process is likely to go quickly here. I do not know what will happen in the future, but I honestly think you might be right about that the fully deaf will not be large enough group to keep traditions by themselves. In a broader perspective, cultures mix much more today, due to globalization and people traveling. People also seem to make more individual choices, rather than just following one specific tradition. It is not just the deaf who are becoming more diverse. In some way this is a good thing because we can make choices that suit our lives and we do don't have to follow one specific group. Individual freedom is important. But, it is still important that sign language is a possible choice when wanted, and Deaf culture should not be forgotten. I hope Deaf organizations will find a way to reach new people.

 

[rnock30]

It's true that mainstreamed deaf students don't usually get formal ASL instruction. Hearing students get English grammar, writing and literature classes. Deaf students don't get ASL classes. They should have Deaf adult instructors teach them about ASL language and Deaf history and culture, including Deaf ASL humor and storytelling. Deaf storytelling is ASL literature.

good morning. I did visited Public High School couple months ago. My wife showed me outside of ASL I & II classrooms. Students' projects on the walls were about Deaf History and Culture. I never see deaf famous people before Marlee Matlin on the wall that students had learned. She told me there are 2 deaf asl teachers, one deaf coach and one interpreter. They are adults. I met deaf woman teach asl. She can handle both deaf and hearing students together but my wife said other asl teacher he got frustrated and walked out 2 different period classrooms because some of deaf and hearing students being very bad. Not that easy. I asked her why not interpreter helps him.. she said he said he don't need interpreter to help out classroom... that his job... they use interpreter for conference, talk with principals and event. ....... My 90's 80's upbringing in south Georgia ... in school, I never have deaf instructors. Most of them hearing teachers signed English language and orally talk same time. None of hearing students learned deaf community. They thought deaf are just like other students who are special need. I had felt audism forced us wearing School-District-ugly-strapon-hearing aids on our chest and speech class. smh We stayed one class in different period and sometime few different for not need interpreter. PE class. We never had learned deaf culture cuz public school dont wanna us know.

 

[Jezie]

good morning. I did visited Public High School couple months ago. My wife showed me outside of ASL I & II classrooms. Students' projects on the walls were about Deaf History and Culture. I never see deaf famous people before Marlee Matlin on the wall that students had learned. She told me there are 2 deaf asl teachers, one deaf coach and one interpreter. They are adults. I met deaf woman teach asl. She can handle both deaf and hearing students together but my wife said other asl teacher he got frustrated and walked out 2 different period classrooms because some of deaf and hearing students being very bad. Not that easy. I asked her why not interpreter helps him.. she said he said he don't need interpreter to help out classroom... that his job... they use interpreter for conference, talk with principals and event. ....... My 90's 80's upbringing in south Georgia ... in school, I never have deaf instructors. Most of them hearing teachers signed English language and orally talk same time. None of hearing students learned deaf community. They thought deaf are just like other students who are special need. I had felt audism forced us wearing School-District-ugly-strapon-hearing aids on our chest and speech class. smh We stayed one class in different period and sometime few different for not need interpreter. PE class. We never had learned deaf culture cuz public school dont wanna us know.

You have me curious if it was just my parents or also the state now....you mention that you were brought up in southern Georgia...where about?
My hearing fluctuated a lot until I became deaf...I was never told this was not normal and I was not allowed to know about my hearing loss. Not permitted hearing aides when it was severe or profound.... I always had to manage and act like nothing was wrong....

 

[rnock30]

Savannah

 

[Jezie]

I don't have time for a long reply, sorry. The discussion here is great and thought provoking. As for reading tips I agree with the others about Limping Chicken being a good blog to follow.

If you are worried about the future of Deaf culture, I think Sweden might be a good study subject. We have tax funded health care, which means that most children who can have a CI get it. There are very few new fully deaf people here. (I assume in some other countries some people cannot afford CI, and there is a larger percentage of fully deaf simply for financial reasons.) This means that the process is likely to go quickly here. I do not know what will happen in the future, but I honestly think you might be right about that the fully deaf will not be large enough group to keep traditions by themselves. In a broader perspective, cultures mix much more today, due to globalization and people traveling. People also seem to make more individual choices, rather than just following one specific tradition. It is not just the deaf who are becoming more diverse. In some way this is a good thing because we can make choices that suit our lives and we do don't have to follow one specific group. Individual freedom is important. But, it is still important that sign language is a possible choice when wanted, and Deaf culture should not be forgotten. I hope Deaf organizations will find a way to reach new people.

I have noticed, in the states at least, that more people are prone to implant their children and the adults who are in late 20s to 40s who are late deafened are turning down the CI it is the elderly and the babies that have the surgery done. But I am not sure why or if what I have come across is completely correct. But healthcare is available so it is not financially motivated, at least I do not think so...
I have been going through limping chicken and will continue to...it is an interesting site and I thank you all for pointing me in that direction...
Culture is important and the mingling of cultures is not a bad thing...it gives freedom to the individuals of choices available to them and teaches them more about life and the people on this planet... The trouble comes with the people...groups by human nature attempt to and will try to control everything and make other groups just like their own...having the group mind that their way is the best way and that they are "only trying to help".
I will look more into Sweden...

 

[AlleyCat]

It's true that mainstreamed deaf students don't usually get formal ASL instruction. Hearing students get English grammar, writing and literature classes. Deaf students don't get ASL classes. They should have Deaf adult instructors teach them about ASL language and Deaf history and culture, including Deaf ASL humor and storytelling. Deaf storytelling is ASL literature.

I had full ASL instruction prior to being mainstreamed. I was enrolled in an ASL program (along with written and spoken English and speech therapy - it was a 3-part program) starting when I was 1.5 years old. I was fluent (or as fluent as you can be at 5 years old ) by the time I entered Kindergarten.

But yes, after that, no formal ASL instruction, not that I needed it since I had completed learning ASL, but for those who didn't have that opportunity, many weren't even provided that opportunity.

I'm sure my Deaf history and culture didn't really come until later, though. Post-high school. That was just a result of being mainstreamed in public schools, much like you said. Got really immersed into it in college.

 

[Swedeafa]

I have noticed, in the states at least, that more people are prone to implant their children and the adults who are in late 20s to 40s who are late deafened are turning down the CI it is the elderly and the babies that have the surgery done. But I am not sure why or if what I have come across is completely correct. But healthcare is available so it is not financially motivated, at least I do not think so...
I have been going through limping chicken and will continue to...it is an interesting site and I thank you all for pointing me in that direction...
Culture is important and the mingling of cultures is not a bad thing...it gives freedom to the individuals of choices available to them and teaches them more about life and the people on this planet... The trouble comes with the people...groups by human nature attempt to and will try to control everything and make other groups just like their own...having the group mind that their way is the best way and that they are "only trying to help".
I will look more into Sweden...

There is not much available in English, but here are a few links:

• http://oru.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:310710/FULLTEXT01.pdf
• http://www.zak.co.il/d/deaf-info/old/sweden
• http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...de=rbeb20#/doi/full/10.1080/13670050903474077
• https://academiccommons.columbia.ed.../CONTENT/HowertonFox_columbia_0054D_11159.pdf
• http://limpingchicken.com/2015/03/1...f-eurovision-songs-makes-him-viral-sensation/
• http://www.arbetsformedlingen.se/do...aa80009054/1401114559735/broschyr-dov-eng.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/1532437/Pol...e_who_are_deaf_in_Northern_Ireland_and_Sweden

The main organizations for Deaf are SDR and HRF (Sveriges Dövas Riksförbund and Hörselskadades riksförbund) the latter is broader and for all hearing loss levels while the first is for Deaf.

 

[Jezie]

Savannah

Interesting...thank you beautiful home town...

 

[Jezie]

There is not much available in English, but here are a few links:

• http://oru.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:310710/FULLTEXT01.pdf
• http://www.zak.co.il/d/deaf-info/old/sweden
• http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...de=rbeb20#/doi/full/10.1080/13670050903474077
• https://academiccommons.columbia.ed.../CONTENT/HowertonFox_columbia_0054D_11159.pdf
• http://limpingchicken.com/2015/03/1...f-eurovision-songs-makes-him-viral-sensation/
• http://www.arbetsformedlingen.se/do...aa80009054/1401114559735/broschyr-dov-eng.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/1532437/Pol...e_who_are_deaf_in_Northern_Ireland_and_Sweden

The main organizations for Deaf are SDR and HRF (Sveriges Dövas Riksförbund and Hörselskadades riksförbund) the latter is broader and for all hearing loss levels while the first is for Deaf.

Thank you very much

 

[hoichi]

[

I see... well there are so many issues at once. Firstly, the Deaf are really a very small group. This makes it difficult. In Sweden I can see a huge difference in activities and acceptance in places where there are large Deaf populations compared to places where there a few deaf people. A positive thing is that it is easier today for Deaf to move to places where there is a Deaf population compared to before, and even if you don't live in the same place, you still can stay in touch with other Deaf in much better ways than before.

Alright.

I sSecondly, all cultures change over time.

This is an empty statement. Its akin to stating water is wet, ..it does nothing for the discussion. If anytbing it muddies critical thinking regarding what exactly is going on

Change is not necessarily the the end of Deaf culture.

Again an empty statement. If the above change is the long term loss of our sign. Then yes indeed Deaf culure wil cease.

It might be possible that Deaf culture will include CI users in the future. Wearing a CI does not exclude signing as an important language. It is hard to say what will happen, but it is possible that Deaf culture will adapt and survive somehow. Deaf societies should be proactive. If kids don't go to Deaf school, how do we do to reach them? Deaf school cannot be the only way.

They are of us now. what matters is if they sign, and many upon many were forced drilled into, and denied our very signs..as policy so that they do not "revert to being Deaf", its not just what do Deaf do, its alos what are these profit driven multii natiionals, these adiologists, these twisted doctors,these hearie actually doing?

I think Deaf people are doing something. Sign language has been recognized as a language in many countries, this is a good thing. More Deaf have good education in the younger generation compared to the older. This is also good, because with better education they will have more influence. I see many tv programs in sign language produced by Deaf. Many authorities in Sweden have information on the web in sign language. The Eurovision Song Contest was interpreted in international sign for the first time. This is huge thing in Europe.

Allot of this is smoke an mirrors and. mixed blessing. But indeed we Deaf are doing something with the little means we have

The situation is difficult right now for Deaf culture, but maybe there are opportunities as well. I guess education and networking are two keys.

Maybes are maybes..
Indeed networking and education are keys

 

[rnock30]

Interesting...thank you beautiful home town...

yup. no doubt.

 

[Swedeafa]

[
Again an empty statement. If the above change is the long term loss of our sign. Then yes indeed Deaf culure wil cease.

Well, we should work on preserving sign language. I am trying to contribute by learning to sign myself. And those who are Deaf could educate parents that it is possible and beneficial to learn sign language even if the child uses hearing technology. You could start a blog advocating for sign language or volunteer as a sign language teacher. Perhaps organize a sign language day like we had here two weeks ago. If deaf kids are mainstreamed, start some activity that helps them meet each other so that they don't feel alone and can get other deaf friends. It might seem impossible, but do what you can to influence.

 

[CrazyPaul]

They used handouts, white board, acting out situations, visual examples, text book, slides, notes.

There are also spoken language instructors that use total immersion methods where they don't speak English while teaching another language. It's not an unknown technique.

Total immersion is a better way to learn a language, as long as the student let's himself or herself "go with the flow." That is, let go of the English and comparing the new language to English. Be a child learning language from momma or papa.

So a deaf ASL instructor should not have problems to teach hearing students without interpreters? I believe they can do it but some colleges have issues with it. Scratch my head...

 

[CrazyPaul]

Again an empty statement. If the above change is the long term loss of our sign. Then yes indeed Deaf culure wil cease.

I doubt it at all. Not all parents CI their deaf children nor all deaf people want to be CIed. Deaf culture is alive and forever. There's no way this world will be utopia as Hitler dreamed of.

 

[hoichi]

[

I don't have time for a long reply, sorry. The discussion here is great and thought provoking. As for reading tips I agree with the others about Limping Chicken being a good blog to follow.le.

agree..and since you like limping chicken so much, i highly recomend paddy lads understanding deaf culture.

If you are worried about the future of Deaf culture, I think Sweden might be a good study subject. We have tax funded health care, which means that most children who can have a CI get it. There are very few new fully deaf people here. le.

In other words your country drills holes into babies heads, as soon as the multi nationals get the loot from your gov Promised Or before. As long as it comes, the drill will turn...... nothing to be proud of. Actually its damn sickining.!!

(I assume in some other countries some people cannot afford CI, and there is a larger percentage of fully deaf simply for financial reasons.) This means that the process is likely to go quickly here.le.

Yes the drilling seems to be picking up isnt it?

I do not know what will happen in the future, but I honestly think you might be right about that the fully deaf will not be large enough group to keep traditions by themselves. le.

We never were. We have alwyas been a minority. We were along with other disabled and undisirebles the first targeted by the nazis. In the united states we were forced sterilized, our signs forbidden in our schools in canada resedential.schools our hands were tied and we were forced against our will to attempt to speak a languge we could not percieve. We were targeted by the likes and deep pockets of such hearie lights of morality like bell, who was terrified of a Deaf race, and wished to remove us from the human gene pool, he stoped short of wishing and campaigning for the exterminating of Deaf living not due to moral qualms, but simply due to the fact he didnt see that having any inpact on the future gene pool....so on..so forth...its a rather long litany....yes indeed we have always been the smaller prey in this...havnt we?

In a broader perspective, cultures mix much more today,
le.

Mix? Or forced assimilition? Mix or sinpley culture Colonized? Mixed or enthocide? Is mixed a polite euphamism?

due to globalizatione.

And neo liberalism, and culture colonalism, and cultural eradication, and forced pokicy for profit driven multi nationals...yes....

and people traveling. People also seem to make more individual choices, rather than just following one specific tradition. It is not just the deaf who are becoming more diverse. le.

how much choice does a baby have in having his or her head drilled into? And being denied sign?

In some way this is a good thing le.

Well you come by it honesly....i give you that....

because we can make choices that suit our lives and we do don't have to follow one specific group.le.

Deaf babies from the start, against the diseres of us Deaf, against our wishes and our pleas, have been drilled into, babies.being implanted was NOT about science, or even succsess, it was simply due to multi national conpanies wishing to extend their profit margin and they gained approval, against medical opposition, the artifical ear is a balanced book you shoukd read, the mask of benevolance also a must read if you are sencere.

Individual freedom is important.le.

Talk is cheap, how much individual freedom or choice do babies have to be drilled into or not?

But, it is still important that sign language is a possible choice when wanted, and Deaf culture should not be forgotten. le.

Your just spewing typical culture colonilism and empty pleasentries....as the drill turns.....

I hope Deaf organizations will find a way to reach new people.

Given the billions of dollors and very deep pockets arrayed against us. With the goal of ridding the world of us Deaf, or to use your words full deaf, that hope is just a pipe dream....

 

[Swedeafa]

Hoichi, I see you are against CI and respect that. I don't agree it is as black or white as you describe it. Firstly, it is possible that companies that make a large profit have good intentions. Secondly, the reason for implanting children when really young is that the results are much better if implanting before the age of three, since the brain can still learn to interpret the sound, which becomes impossible if waiting too long. There is plenty of research confirming this. The most crucial thing according to me is to teach those kids sign as well. Furthermore, the need access to the Deaf society and good role models. I am very much against focusing exclusively on developing speech and sound recognition. CI users should have access to sign language.

I also think it is important that if someone chooses not to get CI, that choice should be respected. It should be ok to say yes and it should be ok to say no.

Another question is what is the effect on Deaf society if more deaf get CI? This is difficult and important. I don't think it's possible to stop people from getting CIs, so there needs to be other ways of keeping the Deaf culture. There are many people that don't mind having an implant, and who are satisfied with the results. They should not be prevented from getting one. Those who agree with you that it is wrong to have an implant, should be respected for that choice as well. As for children, parents are responsible. There are deaf without CI who are unhappy/happy and there are deaf with CI who are unhappy/happy. The CI itself will not determine if you get a good life or not. How you are treated in school, how kind and supporting your parents are, and if you have access to sign is more important.

It is ok to not like CIs, but those who want them are not stupid or insane. They simply have a different perspective on possible risks and issues.

Are the companies just there for the profit? Do they hide facts? We need independent research that is not tied to the industry that can analyze and provide facts. It is not black or white. Irregardless of why, there is a trend towards more CI, and this affects the Deaf society. It is not really possible to stop the trend, so what should be done to keep sign language alive and Deaf culture alive?

 

[linicx]

IMHO the whole idea is silly. Before the written word, Native Americans used a combination of signs and sounds to commute with an unknown tribe. Thru this they were able to determine the agenda of the other.

American English is our spoken/written language. ASL is our silent language. It is not foreign. It is not secondary. It is no less necessary, or less viable than our spoken word. It is no less necessary than my white cane and HAs are to me.

Every student in every American school, private or public, should be able to recognize the ASL sign asking for help. After all if we know what SOS means and sounds like, we should know it in sign language, too.

And any adult who wants or needs to learn ASL should never be denied for any reason. It is a serious subject for those who are serious about learning.

My grandchild's friend is in prison. They were school pals for years. Friend went into prison fully hearing and sighted. Friend will be released completely deaf, partially blind; and not yet 25. Needless to say grandchild desperately wants to learn ASL.