true perception of the hearing world?

[Interpretrator]

I think the real difference here (between the gay community and the Deaf community) is that the gay community does not have a culture of its own.

Entirely untrue.

 

[InTheGenes]

Entirely untrue.

My sentiments, exactly. When I first read that comment (that there is no gay culture), I was immediately struck by the irony that someone from the Deaf community would say such a thing, since great pains have been undertaken to get the Hearing world to see that Deaf culture actually exists. (Obviously, those of us here know that it does...)

 

[jillio]

agree completely int he practical sense that there is definately a Gay Culture. However, in the sociological view point, it would be considered a subculture of the majority culture because it does not involve a differenct language. It's just a subculture vs. culture, but it operates the same way and provides the same sense of belonging and sameness for its members.

 

[Hear Again]

However, in the sociological view point, it would be considered a subculture of the majority culture because it does not involve a differenct language. It's just a subculture vs. culture, but it operates the same way and provides the same sense of belonging and sameness for its members.

jillio,

Exactly! That's precisely the reason why I said the gay community does not have a culture of its own.

If the gay community has a "culture" of its own, the deafblind and blind communities have one too since many of us share similar experiences that are unique to people who cannot see or cannot see and hear (i.e. Braille, use of guide dogs/white cane, tactile sign/other alternative communication techniques for the DB, use of screen readers/Braille displays, reliance on public transportation/sighted assistance/readers, etc.).

 

[Hear Again]

My sentiments, exactly. When I first read that comment (that there is no gay culture), I was immediately struck by the irony that someone from the Deaf community would say such a thing, since great pains have been undertaken to get the Hearing world to see that Deaf culture actually exists. (Obviously, those of us here know that it does...)

What do my comments have to do with convincing hearing people of the existence of Deaf culture? Please explain.

The gay community does NOT have a "culture" per se given the fact that they do not have a *distinct language* all their own.

 

[Interpretrator]

The gay community does NOT have a "culture" per se given the fact that they do not have a *distinct language* all their own.

There are many definitions of "culture." They do not have to include a distinct language.

From Wikipedia:

"More recently, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (Unesco) (2002) described culture as follows: '... culture should be regarded as the set of distinctive spiritual, material, intellectual and emotional features of society or a social group, and that it encompasses, in addition to art and literature, lifestyles, ways of living together, value systems, traditions and beliefs.'"

(Culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

And for more reference:

Sexuality and gender identity-based cultures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree Deaf culture has the component of ASL as a language, but not every culture has that component. For example, one can be heavily involved with Jewish culture and not speak Hebrew or Yiddish.

 

[InTheGenes]

I agree Deaf culture has the component of ASL as a language, but not every culture has that component. For example, one can be heavily involved with Jewish culture and not speak Hebrew or Yiddish.

Exactly.

Several ethnic groups have their own culture (African Americans, various Asian-American groups, etc.), as well as regional cultures (southerners, New Englanders, etc.). While accents might differ among these various groups, language isn't typically a part of their cultural identity. Heck, there are even concepts used to embody culture: youth, fear, fast food nation, etc.

The following URL at reference.com lists over 2000 definitions for "culture". Of the several that I browsed, few listed language as a key component.

Twenty years ago or so, I think the gay "movement" was more universally thought of as a sub-culture, but I'd argue that this has changed rather drastically in recent years.

I think from a Deaf perspective, this might be difficult to swallow, perhaps, because from what I've been able to gather, many deaf people aren't considered culturally Deaf unless they embrace Deaf culture, and use sign language. At least, I believe that's what I thought I read in a recent thread not too long ago. Personally, I almost wonder if perhaps the definition of "culturally Deaf" ought not to be broadened to extend to ALL deaf people, with various sub-cultures within the larger "mainframe" of d/Deaf people (oralists, signers, HoH, etc.)? However, I'm no sociologist (nor am I d/Deaf), so I won't speak as an "expert", by any stretch of the imagination.

I WILL say, however, that I see being gay as more than simply sexuality; I believe it to also be a cultural identity.

While I'm not the biggest fan of using Wikipedia as an "official" source, there IS a rather interesting article on "gay culture" there, if you care to read it (too large to effectively quote/paste here).

 

[InTheGenes]

What do my comments have to do with convincing hearing people of the existence of Deaf culture? Please explain.

For many uninitiated hearing people, there is complete ignorance on their part that Deaf culture even exists. I've had several conversations with hearing friends who were astounded that there was such a thing, and I've done my best to act as an effective honorary Ambassador to the Deaf community, in educating them about it.

So, when someone in the Deaf community claims that there is no such thing as gay culture, I find it ironic. The individual struggles that each culture has undergone throughout the years (to be accepted, to not be patronized, to be seen as equal, etc.) are not really all that different, in my opinion.

I think it was jillio in an earlier post that said something along the lines of:

...communicating with, associating with, or even having as a best friend, a gay person does not make me a member of the Gay Community. It makes me a straight person who participates in and is exposed to gay individuals, and therefore, allows me more intimate exposure. That leads to increased empathy and understanding of the particular difficulties experienced by those who are homosexual, but it doesn't make me more gay than any other straight person.

That kind of exposure certainly won't make you more GAY, per se (unless, of course, you began experimenting, and found out something entirely new about yourself, LOL!)... but it would, in fact, potentially make you an honorary member of the gay community. That happens ALL the time (ever heard of a fag hag, fruit fly, or a dyke tyke?). Sure, you might be a "visitor", and there would be aspects of the gay community that you WOULDN'T partake of... but not all gay people partake of them, either! But if you found yourself sharing in their struggles, sharing in their hopes, fears, accomplishments, failures, etc... then by golly, I'd say your membership card would read: "honorary member in good standing"!

I see this much in the same fashion that CODAs or spouses/siblings/family members of Deaf people are often considered "honorary" members of the Deaf community, without actually being deaf, themselves.

 

[Hear Again]

InTheGenes and Interpretrator,

Now I understand what both of you mean and accept culture by the definitions you stated.

I was always brought up with the belief that one of the most important components (or identifying factors) of culture is that it contains a distinct language.

Perhaps the definition of culture has expanded today and if that's true, then I retract my statement about the gay community.

My apologies if I offended any AD members with my comments. I did not intend to be offensive with my remarks.

 

[InTheGenes]

All good!

My apologies if I offended any AD members with my comments. I did not intend to be offensive with my remarks.

Speaking for myself, no offense taken!

You don't seem to be the malicious sort at all. Plus, my guess is we're here (reading these particular threads) because we want to understand one another, as well as ourselves.

 

[jillio]

Exactly.

Several ethnic groups have their own culture (African Americans, various Asian-American groups, etc.), as well as regional cultures (southerners, New Englanders, etc.). While accents might differ among these various groups, language isn't typically a part of their cultural identity. Heck, there are even concepts used to embody culture: youth, fear, fast food nation, etc.

The following URL at reference.com lists over 2000 definitions for "culture". Of the several that I browsed, few listed language as a key component.

Twenty years ago or so, I think the gay "movement" was more universally thought of as a sub-culture, but I'd argue that this has changed rather drastically in recent years.

Once again, if viewed from an anthropological, sociological viewpoint, the above are subcultures of the majority culture.
I think from a Deaf perspective, this might be difficult to swallow, perhaps, because from what I've been able to gather, many deaf people aren't considered culturally Deaf unless they embrace Deaf culture, and use sign language. At least, I believe that's what I thought I read in a recent thread not too long ago. Personally, I almost wonder if perhaps the definition of "culturally Deaf" ought not to be broadened to extend to ALL deaf people, with various sub-cultures within the larger "mainframe" of d/Deaf people (oralists, signers, HoH, etc.)? However, I'm no sociologist (nor am I d/Deaf), so I won't speak as an "expert", by any stretch of the imagination.

I WILL say, however, that I see being gay as more than simply sexuality; I believe it to also be a cultural identity.

While I'm not the biggest fan of using Wikipedia as an "official" source, there IS a rather interesting article on "gay culture" there, if you care to read it (too large to effectively quote/paste here).

Once again, the above examples, if viewed from an anthropological, sociological stand, these are considered subcultures, not distinct cultures. To be considered a distinct and separate culture, separate language is considered necessary. That is why Deaf Culture is considered a separate culture and not a subculture formed from the majority hearing culture.

 

[xNinjaxAshx]

So you guys are talking about cultures. The gay culture and Deaf culture.

We do have many cultures in this world, but in my opinion in the end, we're all human beings. So why argue which cultures exist?

 

[InTheGenes]

Once again, the above examples, if viewed from an anthropological, sociological stand, these are considered subcultures, not distinct cultures. To be considered a distinct and separate culture, separate language is considered necessary. That is why Deaf Culture is considered a separate culture and not a subculture formed from the majority hearing culture.

So American and Canadian cultures are really sub-cultures of British culture, then?

 

[Interpretrator]

So American and Canadian cultures are really sub-cultures of British culture, then?

No. Jillio is going off only one definition of culture. Yours is a perfect example of why the "culture = language" definition doesn't work in every situation. Standard American English, Standard Canadian English, and Standard British English (Recieved Pronunciation or whatever) are not separate languages, they are different dialects of English, but clearly each country has its own separate majority culture.

We do have many cultures in this world, but in my opinion in the end, we're all human beings. So why argue which cultures exist?

Because that's a very nice utopian idea that all people are the same but in the real world, there is no society without different cultures. And knowing how cultures differ from one another helps people understand each other better, much better than simply closing our eyes to the differences between us. When there is no understanding of cultural separations, there is prejudice and discrimination.

 

[jillio]

So you guys are talking about cultures. The gay culture and Deaf culture.

We do have many cultures in this world, but in my opinion in the end, we're all human beings. So why argue which cultures exist?

Because it promotes understanding of the etiology of differences in value systems and norms, thereby increasing tolerance for such and reducing fear.
As far as Deaf Culture is concerned, to have their culture recognized and given validity, the culture had to be defined under sociological and anthropological terms. That was the first step in acheiving equal access. Until the Daf community was seen as a separate culture, and identified as a cultural and linguistic minority all deaf people were regarded simply as handicapped, and the prevailing attitude was one of inferiority to the hearing community. To identify the Deaf Culture has allowed for the attitude of different needs, implying equality, rather than special needs, which implies inferiority.

 

[jillio]

No. Jillio is going off only one definition of culture. Yours is a perfect example of why the "culture = language" definition doesn't work in every situation. Standard American English, Standard Canadian English, and Standard British English (Recieved Pronunciation or whatever) are not separate languages, they are different dialects of English, but clearly each country has its own separate majority culture.



Because that's a very nice utopian idea that all people are the same but in the real world, there is no society without different cultures. And knowing how cultures differ from one another helps people understand each other better, much better than simply closing our eyes to the differences between us. When there is no understanding of cultural separations, there is prejudice and discrimination.

You are correct that I am using one definition-that which is derived from sociological and anthropological theories. However, for the Deaf Culture to have been recognized at all, it was necessary for researchers to prove the linguistic base. The hearing community only began, historically, to accept that the needs of the deaf population were different, based on the way they perceive information, and not special based on inferior ability to learn and produce language. That is why I make the disticntion between the scientifically recognized, and politically adopted, definition, and the existence of subcultures.

 

[Southern]

yeah we gays do have a very distinct culture and while the language isn't seperate we use English in the U.S. then American culture could not be considered a seperate culture from that of britan which we all know is not true. Going off that, we use the same words but differently in England and America. The same could be said of the gay culture in America. We have our traditions and our own terms. A word can mean one thing in regular socity and mean something completely different in the gay culture. Also our culture spans the globe what you find true of American gays is many times true of Mexican, Japanese, French, and Russian gays. Maybe we are subcultures of the various larger cultures but taken as a whole across the globe we are one culture and that i think out weighs the other.

 

[Southern]

yea that reminds me...I have had hearing people show their annoyance at me and I wouldnt know why. Someone told me later that I make too much noise at times. After that, I did become paranoid for a while about not making too much noise in public but then it became such a burden so right now, I do not give a damn. If whatever noise bothers them, too bad for them. They have to accept and put up with it. LOL!

Why have that attitude about it? We treat each other (hearing) the same. If some one that is hearing is making an annoying noise we will ask them to stop. If they don't then we tell them. Out of common courtousy you stop. Think of this visually. If a blind person had a bright flash light and kept shining it in your eyes you would ask them to stop wouldn't you? The flash light might be making a funny noise and the blind person is just listening to it. The fact that the light is hurting your eyes makes no sense to the blind person, they have no concept of this. It is the same. No need to be parinoid about it but being contious of it there is nothing wrong with. Would you want a person shining a bright light over and over and over in your eyes? No you wouldn't. Same thing. =)

 

[shel90]

Why have that attitude about it? We treat each other (hearing) the same. If some one that is hearing is making an annoying noise we will ask them to stop. If they don't then we tell them. Out of common courtousy you stop. Think of this visually. If a blind person had a bright flash light and kept shining it in your eyes you would ask them to stop wouldn't you? The flash light might be making a funny noise and the blind person is just listening to it. The fact that the light is hurting your eyes makes no sense to the blind person, they have no concept of this. It is the same. No need to be parinoid about it but being contious of it there is nothing wrong with. Would you want a person shining a bright light over and over and over in your eyes? No you wouldn't. Same thing. =)

How am I supposed to know how loud I am being if the hearing people dont inform me? They just make faces at me and not say anything. As a child, I asked my mom why were so many people making faces at me and she said cuz I was talking too loud. So I tried my best not to talk too loud but it is so hard when I cant tell if I am or not. If someone could take the time to tell me, great but if they give me dirty looks and not say anything then nothing I can do about it cuz I honestly do not know what loud noises I would be making at the time. I cant worry about pleasing everyone else if they dont tell me what is bothering them.

If a person is shining a bright thing in my eyes, I would tell that person that it hurts. The key is communication and I dont think it is right that people expect me to read their minds if I am hurting their ears. They need to let me know or otherwise I will keep on doing it.

 

[Southern]

true true, if you aren't told you can't. But body language and facial expressions are a way to tell you. Funny we don't want to be rude by telling you, "hey cut that crap out!" but we will give a dirty look which is just as rude! LOL people are funny!