to be proud of your country

Bebonang said:
The point is that Europeans should have stayed in their own countries and have their ways and culture. This is suppose to be their home. They can do a lot of damage to themselves if they are so barbaric to the way they treated low common people. But they were being shipped for the Gold and looking for whatever they are looking including the lands that they should asked us first. If we say "No", the Europeans should respect us as we have live here for many centuries.

It does not matter if we are not born if the Europeans remained in Europe while many nations in North American including Mexico and South America can live in peace. Every one of us from different nations and cultures had been here before Europe countries like France, German and UK came to our shores. We do not want them to come over if they were not friendly and can learn to live with us. We don't forced them. They also should not have tried to change us to be like the Europeans. All they should have asked if we can dress to be like them, but the Europeans wanted to forced to assimilate us by killing us and to forced our Native children to go to boarding schools where there were much abusive and being killed off just to make rooms in boarding schools. It happened the same in Canada in residential schools, too. We are not the only one. In Australia, White people had forced Native children in boarding schools and they had the worse treatments which they had suffered so much. What is wrong with our color skins being black and brown? We are human beings as much as any of White people.

Beside back then, the Natives were too friendly to know about their conquest and their cruel ways on how they treated us with abusive attitude and killing us to get what they want. All they care about what they want!!!! They just want to conquer to get what they want and reap what they found like Gold. I don't see their needs at all. This is what make me upset over this.
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Jonas Salk is an American who made polio a thing of the past.

His parents were Polish Jews who emigrated here. If this country didn't exist, Salk could have been born and lived in Poland and become one of the millions of Jews killed by Hitler.

History isn't as simple as you try to make it.
 
Bottesini said:
Jonas Salk is an American who made polio a thing of the past.

His parents were Polish Jews who emigrated here. If this country didn't exist, Salk could have been born and lived in Poland and become one of the millions of Jews killed by Hitler.

History isn't as simple as you try to make it.
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You will probably never know if history can change if Europeans remained to stay in their own countries. You may be right about Hilter as he was still in Europe (born and raised there) and caused this holocaust of Jewish people. I feel sympathy for the Jewish people to suffered this. This is barbaric and dangerous to be look down and treated Jewish people like that. They could have gone to other countries like England or somewhere to have peace. They could have fought back to the German Nazi. That is why I don't understand why they are doing so much damage all over the world especially when Kings and Queens are sending over explorers to get what they want to conquer and reap. This is or was outrageous and barbaric. :(
 
Bebonang said:
You will probably never know if history can change if Europeans remained to stay in their own countries. You may be right about Hilter as he was still in Europe (born and raised there) and caused this holocaust of Jewish people. I feel sympathy for the Jewish people to suffered this. This is barbaric and dangerous to be look down and treated Jewish people like that. They could have gone to other countries like England or somewhere to have peace. They could have fought back to the German Nazi. That is why I don't understand why they are doing so much damage all over the world especially when Kings and Queens are sending over explorers to get what they want to conquer and reap. This is or was outrageous and barbaric. :(
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That's very true we will never know what would have happened in an alternate history.
 
[

Jezie said:
Please do not get me wrong, I was not meaning to imply that you were claiming that it would be all sunshine and rainbows.



The evidence of such lays in the hands of history and thought.... almost every time a nation or its citizens have severed ties with each other chaos ensues....the nation falls several steps backwards and struggles to right itself again...

..
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Well what do you mean exactly by severing ties with each other? What examples are you refering too?
And are these examples relavant?



Jezie said:
As always you ask good head scratching queations.... why give loyalties to something that at its core is disloyal?
... Because, I do not believe that the government as a whole means to be dishonest nor disloyal. ...

..
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This contradicts what you posted but...what is the state? How do you define the state?

Jezie said:
it is the people of the governemnt that are and have always been self serving.... Sadly that is the nature of humans... some of my answer to this question is a private matter that we can cover via pm....


..
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Alright

Jezie said:
A person has individual freedom when he or she breaks from social group mind and learns to think for their self and not a moment sooner....if a person never manages this achievement it is a moot point....
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But what do you mean here by individual freedom? if the state still demands loyalty from the infsnts first breathbto your last?
 
Jezie said:
How does a nation state become so ... uniform for lack of better wording?
It is a smaller scale but the same things happen in the development and maintenance of a nation state as to what happens for nations...
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It became uniform by the monopoly of the use of violence, or aS its beter known in the old world the kings last argument.
 
hoichi said:
It became uniform by the monopoly of the use of violence, or aS its beter known in the old world the kings last argument.
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Thus not different by a whole lot... there are some variances I will grant you that.... but at the core not a very large difference ....
 
hoichi said:
[


Well what do you mean exactly by severing ties with each other? What examples are you refering too?
And are these examples relavant?





This contradicts what you posted but...what is the state? How do you define the state?



Alright



But what do you mean here by individual freedom? if the state still demands loyalty from the infsnts first breathbto your last?
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What I mean by severing ties with each other....is that either the government turning it's back on its citizens... or the citizens going against the government.... but for this discussion I am not meaning of things past...I am speaking of if we as all people threw off our loyalties to or nations and became nothing but either individuals or collections of nation states...we would end up going after each other's throats.... trying to control, oppress, or assimilate the other.... wait the US already does this.... well still argument does not change....
I mentioned using history and thought.... While there are examples in history of a government betraying its people through segregation, concentration camps, genocide, slavery, theift, butchery, and flat out simple murder....and people going against its government through over throws, coups, protest, assinations, replacement, riots, and the like.... I am placing these thoughts with histories examples to see what would happen if people had no loyalties to a nation....

How do you see me as contradicting myself?

I was under the impression for the sake of this conversation we were speaking of nationalism and loyalties expected/demanded from its citizens from the time of his or her birth until they pass....

Individual freedom is freedom of self....self thought, action, and belief.... no one can truly control a person if they have the ability to think for their self... they will place their loyalties where they believe they should go....
 
Bebonang said:
I have never understand why Europeans had to come over to just take over and take our lands without permission from us. If we said "No" to them that they can not have our lands as we are living here for centuries and centuries but they threatened, not even the treaties, would killed our ancestors and make us moved to reservations which the lands were not good. We could not get our rights as equal. Many Elders, women and children were often killed by military troops because they are just scared of us. Most of our Native men were out hunting and looking for food. Most often, the White settlers and military spread untrue stories about us being savage and primitives. This is our life the way we live for thousands and thousands of years. Why are Europeans are that way being barbaric and dangerous to us? They have no right to invade us like this. We are a peaceful people and we tried to protect ourselves and our lands from the invaders. They don't seem to be interest in peace and friendship at all with us.

Why would you be proud of our country? England, Spain and France want to invade us to get what they want like looking for gold and lands. They thought they would be able to find Gold or whatever we have as we don't have them. They should have leave us alone the way we were except if we want to learn to read and write but not our culture and tradition. The thing is they forced us to be like the white people and to say that it is better to "save the man, get rid of the Indian". That is cruel and hurtful. We have been living here before they came.
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it's a human nature to expand and colonize.

it is regretful that the land was taken from Native Americans but... at that time - there is no concept of "mine" among Native Americans. they do not stake a claim and say "I own this." they share and everything is free.

that was a foreign concept to Europeans and they thought they can just take it and stake their claim. they also misled them too.

what's done is done and we've apologized to Native Americans and we do pay compensations to Native Americans. time to move on and not dread on hate from the past.
 
Bebonang said:
The point is that Europeans should have stayed in their own countries and have their ways and culture. This is suppose to be their home. They can do a lot of damage to themselves if they are so barbaric to the way they treated low common people. But they were being shipped for the Gold and looking for whatever they are looking including the lands that they should asked us first. If we say "No", the Europeans should respect us as we have live here for many centuries.

It does not matter if we are not born if the Europeans remained in Europe while many nations in North American including Mexico and South America can live in peace. Every one of us from different nations and cultures had been here before Europe countries like France, German and UK came to our shores. We do not want them to come over if they were not friendly and can learn to live with us. We don't forced them. They also should not have tried to change us to be like the Europeans. All they should have asked if we can dress to be like them, but the Europeans wanted to forced to assimilate us by killing us and to forced our Native children to go to boarding schools where there were much abusive and being killed off just to make rooms in boarding schools. It happened the same in Canada in residential schools, too. We are not the only one. In Australia, White people had forced Native children in boarding schools and they had the worse treatments which they had suffered so much. What is wrong with our color skins being black and brown? We are human beings as much as any of White people.

Beside back then, the Natives were too friendly to know about their conquest and their cruel ways on how they treated us with abusive attitude and killing us to get what they want. All they care about what they want!!!! They just want to conquer to get what they want and reap what they found like Gold. I don't see their needs at all. This is what make me upset over this.
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If Europeans don't colonize the America so Asian countries like China and Japan will colonize the America and possibly kill more or extremely hostile to Native Indians.

The colonization of America helped Europe to become more democracy and not religious state anymore that where anyone have religious freedom, but without, it will be no good today - under monarchy authoritarian.

I'm not European and I have quarter of Indian blood - from my father. I'm belong to America with strong southern culture.

The southern culture share a lot of Indian culture as well like grits are from Indians.
 
Jiro said:
it's a human nature to expand and colonize.

it is regretful that the land was taken from Native Americans but... at that time - there is no concept of "mine" among Native Americans. they do not stake a claim and say "I own this." they share and everything is free.

that was a foreign concept to Europeans and they thought they can just take it and stake their claim. they also misled them too.

what's done is done and we've apologized to Native Americans and we do pay compensations to Native Americans. time to move on and not dread on hate from the past.
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I agree but I doubt that she will accept those statement.
 
Bottesini said:
Keep it in mind that you and I are both mixed race, not pure Native ancestry.

So if they never showed up neither you nor I would have ever existed.

Peoples have been conquered and replaced many times since the beginning of the world.

I would never wish myself out of existence, but that is exactly what you are doing.

The hatred gets really old.
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Of course, it is different from tribes to tribes so she turns into tribe vs. tribe if she doesn't agree with tribe, especially side with confederate.

US government mistreated Native Americans but not much from CSA government, also Native Indians owned slaves in southern states.
 
Foxrac said:
Of course, it is different from tribes to tribes so she turns into tribe vs. tribe if she doesn't agree with tribe, especially side with confederate.

US government mistreated Native Americans but not much from CSA government, also Native Indians owned slaves in southern states.
Click to expand...

My mother's family is Cherokee. I am aware. My grandmother died on the Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma when I was a small child, but I do remember her and the reservation.
 
Jiro said:
it's a human nature to expand and colonize.

it is regretful that the land was taken from Native Americans but... at that time - there is no concept of "mine" among Native Americans. they do not stake a claim and say "I own this." they share and everything is free.

that was a foreign concept to Europeans and they thought they can just take it and stake their claim. they also misled them too.

what's done is done and we've apologized to Native Americans and we do pay compensations to Native Americans. time to move on and not dread on hate from the past.
Click to expand...


On the Black bold, We have different ways to take care of our lands as a land keepers to make sure our nature environments which we prayed and cherished both nature and animals to keep it healthy and to get food from them. We don't need deeds or ownership of the land. If the Whites had asked us if they would like to use our lands which we lived on them. We would have said "No" because we lived on the sites which we have lived for many centuries. The Whites could find the other lands where there is no Natives living on them. But they wanted our lands so they forced us out or moved to another poor lands like reservations. We don't follow what the Whites do what they do in Europe for land deeds. They are not at Europe if they are here. They just used the old method from Europe way of using the land deeds and the taxation just to get away what they want. They are selfish and greedy. This is different than we used to here. This is our home and they should not have invaded us to get what they want. Simple. They don't care about us being here for many years. Why Conquer us? Geeze. :mad:
 
Bebonang said:
On the Black bold, We have different ways to take care of our lands as a land keepers to make sure our nature environments which we prayed and cherished both nature and animals to keep it healthy and to get food from them. We don't need deeds or ownership of the land. If the Whites had asked us if they would like to use our lands which we lived on them. We would have said "No" because we lived on the sites which we have lived for many centuries. The Whites could find the other lands where there is no Natives living on them. But they wanted our lands so they forced us out or moved to another poor lands like reservations. We don't follow what the Whites do what they do in Europe for land deeds. They are not at Europe if they are here. They just used the old method from Europe way of using the land deeds and the taxation just to get away what they want. They are selfish and greedy. This is different than we used to here. This is our home and they should not have invaded us to get what they want. Simple. They don't care about us being here for many years. Why Conquer us? Geeze. :mad:
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There were Native Indians welcome Europeans and Africans to colonize the America to free away from authoritarian monarch in European countries.

UK made a huge mess with America and they took control of colonists before they defeated UK in 1776.

It has been around since 1500s, about 200 years before US was born.
 
Bebonang said:
I have never understand why Europeans had to come over to just take over and take our lands without permission from us. If we said "No" to them that they can not have our lands as we are living here for centuries and centuries but they threatened, not even the treaties, would killed our ancestors and make us moved to reservations which the lands were not good. We could not get our rights as equal. Many Elders, women and children were often killed by military troops because they are just scared of us. Most of our Native men were out hunting and looking for food. Most often, the White settlers and military spread untrue stories about us being savage and primitives. This is our life the way we live for thousands and thousands of years. Why are Europeans are that way being barbaric and dangerous to us? They have no right to invade us like this. We are a peaceful people and we tried to protect ourselves and our lands from the invaders. They don't seem to be interest in peace and friendship at all with us.

Why would you be proud of our country? England, Spain and France want to invade us to get what they want like looking for gold and lands. They thought they would be able to find Gold or whatever we have as we don't have them. They should have leave us alone the way we were except if we want to learn to read and write but not our culture and tradition. The thing is they forced us to be like the white people and to say that it is better to "save the man, get rid of the Indian". That is cruel and hurtful. We have been living here before they came.
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beb that different..what Europe did appauling never should happened..The Pilgrim Fathers could be cruel and arrogant but it has happened can do nothing now replace history
It your country before anyone else all of you scream make world hear it but before you do ask yourself would you go to American hospital have appendix out or stick with triable methods..
One thing people forget the Chinese got to as many of theses countries Australia States nz and a great debt is owed.
Beb in early days of America most Europeans did not want be there they sent there for punishment hmm
 
caz said:
. . . Beb in early days of America most Europeans did not want be there they sent there for punishment hmm
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Are you sure you aren't confusing the Australian penal colonies with American immigration? I've never heard of European to American migration being called a punishment. America has been known to be a destination for Europeans seeking to escape oppression and lack of opportunity in their home countries.

The Pilgrims came to America in search of religious freedom. Later arrivals were seeking trade markets and land. The Spaniards came to the Western hemisphere in search of gold.
 
Australia had convicts up until 18th America before..Moll flanders novel good example...See pics wearing very Amish clothes.America belong to Brits at time so no blame yanki..We sent our Crims far and wide
 
great shame you not take our crims now...I all for them living out there but America not so thrilled you and oz send them back at border,give crims right to live withn ya all.stick them on chain gang well do what you like with them..Great shame oz and everywhere don't have them now:)
 
Reba said:
Are you sure you aren't confusing the Australian penal colonies with American immigration? I've never heard of European to American migration being called a punishment. America has been known to be a destination for Europeans seeking to escape oppression and lack of opportunity in their home countries.

The Pilgrims came to America in search of religious freedom. Later arrivals were seeking trade markets and land. The Spaniards came to the Western hemisphere in search of gold.
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The American colonies were a dumping ground for a lot of unsavory people's until the American revolution....


http://www.genealogical.com/product...antations 1650 1775 Second Edition/9804.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_transportation
 
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