So, will the deaf culture be there?

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I think what faire joure is missing is that while there are a lot less kids who NEED ASL as a first language, b/c they are "oral failures", them learning how to speak won't mean that they can't aquire ASL as a second language. Yes, we'll have a lot less voice off ASLers...BUT I do think that this generation of parents is a bit more openminded towards ASL as a second language option. There's still a lot of parents who are "No problem with ASL, but I want my kid to learn to speak"
I really do think that Deaf Ed and Deaf Schools need to develop a dual language aqustion (sp?) program. The key to survival of Deaf Culture and Deaf Ed, is going to depend on making Deaf Ed Hoh friendly. It's actually already happening. On another board, someone mentioned that one of her Deaf friend's sons (voice off ASLer) who is attending a Deaf School is doing really bad in a subject b/c the teacher isn't ASL fluent and everyone else in the class is functionally hoh. I think too that faire joure is buying into the assumption that hoh kids are more "hearing" then deaf. There ARE hoh kids who are pretty much "almost hearing" but then again there are plenty of hoh kids who are pretty much "almost deaf" too!
 
Last weekend I was away to see my old friends. I am speechless that I met my old friend's hearing husband. He signs very well, I mean he's pretty good. He IS NOT a CODA or does not have deaf children or does not have deaf siblings or relatives, but hearing kids. He is an adult who learns ASL very well!! Needless to say that he married deaf wife who is a close old friend of mine. He's an army guy. Yes He's in the army! *thud*
 
Oh and I think faire joure doesn't understand that while there are going to be much less fewer dhh kids who only have minimal or no spoken language skills, there is a HUGE difference between AG Bell "Suburban Superacheiver" oral (meaning high acheiving even compared to hearing kids) and typical oral. Yes, the days of HUGE oral language delays are gone for the majority of dhh kids. That does NOT mean that most orally trained kids will thrive in a minimal accomondations setting. (which is what most mainstreamed settings offer) They are supposedly doing well in second grade. That's great and all, but first a few things. How do you know they're not doing well "for deaf kids?" I know you said that they don't have IEPs, BUT it's possible that the parents were told not to get them IEPs so that they wouldn't be labeled as "special ed" or "Resource Room (did you miss the thread on special ed in general discussion?) Also, early grades are still relatively easy. Wait until fourth grade (a bugaboo that seems to be UNIVERSAL) or middle school. Many of the kids who are doing well right now, may start having difficulty in later grades, and come back to the Deaf School fold or to ASL.
Grendel, you said that TLC is growing right? Is it growing in the upper grades? I think...no, I KNOW that faire joure does NOT understand how BEYOND frustrating it is to get proper accomondations for kids with classic disabilites in the mainstream..
I think many kids who are just "orally skilled" may come back to the Deaf School fold. You have NO idea what it's like to be teased b/c of your "deaf voice" or be thought of as intellectucally disabled b/c of your deaf voice or be yelled at b/c it's hard to modulate your voice in areas like thelibrary. You have NO clue what it's like to be on the fringes at a party that uses spoken language. Yes many deaf kids are now becoming hoh....but with that they are discovering the DISADVANTGES and that oral only does not equate to full hearing world access! ...and I mean you are assuming that the only kids who can be Deaf are profound or severely Deaf. There ARE hoh kids in the Deaf School system you know.....and a lot of them are becoming attracted to Deaf Ed. You have to remember that hearing parents of today grew up with dhh kids mainstreamed or even oral. They see and saw the disadvantages of oral only, and that a lot of kids got teased or did not thrive. They are not ASL phobic. You are right...The voice off Deaf ed program is probaly endangered. But that doesn't mean that Deaf Schools are endangered. It just means they will have to change
 
Ooooooo..... I just thought of something. I do know that nowadays, oral therapists/experts/teachers are more likely to suggest Sign early on if a kid is struggling orally. It's no longer " wait and see......before you know it they'll be talking" That could be a HUGE reason as to why "oral sucesses have "increased"
Another reason as to why "oral" education may have improved is that maybe they are only counting the kids who grew up totally pure oral or pure auditory verbal. Not just orally skilled. Meaning they did not have ANY exposure to ASL educationally. Many kids may have been exposed to ASL through mainstream formal programs or consultants with TODs or whatever.
 
deafdyke said:
Ooooooo..... I just thought of something. I do know that nowadays, oral therapists/experts/teachers are more likely to suggest Sign early on if a kid is struggling orally. It's no longer " wait and see......before you know it they'll be talking" That could be a HUGE reason as to why "oral sucesses have "increased"
Another reason as to why "oral" education may have improved is that maybe they are only counting the kids who grew up totally pure oral or pure auditory verbal. Not just orally skilled. Meaning they did not have ANY exposure to ASL educationally. Many kids may have been exposed to ASL through mainstream formal programs or consultants with TODs or whatever.
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:gpost: :gpost: That goes for #1084 and #1086 :thumb:
 
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Another thing I wanted to add.......I know faire joure is banned now and can't reply now. But I am sure she is lurking. There may also be a lot of parents of dhh kids who are lurking too.
Were you aware that Braille for a very long time was unfashionable in blind ed? The trend was to get the kids to use technology (books on tape and the technological visual aids like the CC TV (not sure if I got the name of that correct) or to train them to use large print. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine went to Perkins School for the Blind, for high school in the 90's and did not even learn Braille! It was thought that b/c of the new techology, they did not "need" Braille.
Sound familair? Yet, here's the kicker. People who were Braille-literate were the ones with the highest rate of employment!!!! :shock:
They are now trying to increase Braille literacy through Schools for the Blind.
 
Oh and you know what? Faire joure sounds like the AG Bellers who were insisting that CI and digital hearing aids would allow the majority of kids to acheive in the hearing world.....Gee, where are those kids today? She also doesn't understand that while dhh kids are doing better orally and in some other ways, (compared to past years) it's still low compared to hearing/nondisabled kids.
Faire joure, you are still new to oral education. Just b/c a kid can hear and speak, it does not mean that they will be able to function in a crowded classroom (I know it's not too unusual for someone who is orally skilled one on one to use 'terps in classroom situtions) or function academicly or have a good grasp of written English. (remember, oral kids very often have poor expressive written language, which means they did not adqaudty master English)
 
deafdyke said:
Oh and you know what? Faire joure sounds like the AG Bellers who were insisting that CI and digital hearing aids would allow the majority of kids to acheive in the hearing world.....Gee, where are those kids today? She also doesn't understand that while dhh kids are doing better orally and in some other ways, (compared to past years) it's still low compared to hearing/nondisabled kids.
Faire joure, you are still new to oral education. Just b/c a kid can hear and speak, it does not mean that they will be able to function in a crowded classroom (I know it's not too unusual for someone who is orally skilled one on one to use 'terps in classroom situtions) or function academicly or have a good grasp of written English. (remember, oral kids very often have poor expressive written language, which means they did not adqaudty master English)
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I disagree with so much of this. Have you actually talked to kids in their 20's who were implanted before 3? There aren't a lot, but if you look, you can find them. CI's make a profound difference. Talk to these young adults, see how well they are doing, and then talk to me.

I am not saying that a CI makes one able to hear perfectly in all situations. Hell, hearing people struggled in crowds and background noise, why wouldn't deaf? How does that prove that CI's do not allow for access to fluent spoken language.

Honestly, I am so sick of arguing with you. It is ridiculous. You do not have a CI, you speak about kids and schools which you do not interact with or visit. You say the same things over and over. How is it that SO MANY studies show that early implanted CI kids acheive the same as hearing kids, have the same rates of college, same language levels, everything, but you still refuse to take your blinders off?
 
Faire joure, Defensive much? I am NOT attacking the CI. I think it rocks. But I DO think that you're not seeing the whole picture. You are seeing what the experts and oral teachers want you to see. Yes, there's been huge gains. BUT, history is going to repeat itself. Seventy years ago when hearing aids were first poplarized you probaly had HUGE numbers of teachers and studies indicating HUGE acheivement gains and or abilty to function fully in the mainstream.
How is it that SO MANY studies show that early implanted CI kids acheive the same as hearing kids, have the same rates of college, same language levels, everything, but you still refuse to take your blinders o
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Well first of all, many of those studies may be studying selective populations. Like the AG Bell population can be suburban overacheiver, so that could skew things. Second of all, VERY early implanted CI kids are still kids. The jury is still out.
Yes, I've seen many CI kids. So has jillo. So has shel. Just b/c there are a significent number of AG Bell oralists who are suceeding in the mainstream, it does not mean that will be extrapolarated towards the dhh population as a whole. I would be very skeptical..You are still new to the world of oral deafness. You're just being bedazzled by the same old shit packaged a different way....and I mean I can pretty much guarantee that those studies are sweeping real issues under the rug. I can pretty much guarntee that many of the implanted kids of today will be dealing with a lot of the same issues that other oral deaf kids have in the past.......and you'll have a lot of them posting saying that they don't feel like they fit in, or that they have no friends or whatever.
 
FJ, you keep talking about oral-only with upbringing the CI kids or even hearing aids kids with spoken language and hoping they will be in the real world like mainstreaming into the hearing world without sign language. I know you said the CI kids can sign but you insist they need to use spoken language, but that does not help trying to talk to the hearing people in the everyday life in the real world.

We are talking about Deaf Culture which indicate ASL to communicate and having deaf history and just be freely comfortable to communicate with Deaf people with ASL or sign language in different countries in our world. I just don't understand why you keep wanting the CI/HA to be in the mainstream with hearing people in the real world, whether in college or in the working world which is hard enough for us to struggle with comprehending what the hearing bosses or supervisors are saying including the co-workers with no accommodations to begin with.

The hearing people does not understand why we need the accommodations to communicate like TTY or VRS or maybe use the computers like e-mail or something.

Trying to understand by listening or understanding what the hearing people say is not going to help us whether we have CI or hearing aids. So get real. Just don't argue with me or other deaf ADers just because you know everything about deafness and believe that CI will help the deaf person to listen and hear by understanding what the hearing people say. Wrong. That is why you need to stop this. :(
 
Bebonang said:
FJ, you keep talking about oral-only with upbringing the CI kids or even hearing aids kids with spoken language and hoping they will be in the real world like mainstreaming into the hearing world without sign language. I know you said the CI kids can sign but you insist they need to use spoken language, but that does not help trying to talk to the hearing people in the everyday life in the real world.

We are talking about Deaf Culture which indicate ASL to communicate and having deaf history and just be freely comfortable to communicate with Deaf people with ASL or sign language in different countries in our world. I just don't understand why you keep wanting the CI/HA to be in the mainstream with hearing people in the real world, whether in college or in the working world which is hard enough for us to struggle with comprehending what the hearing bosses or supervisors are saying including the co-workers with no accommodations to begin with.

The hearing people does not understand why we need the accommodations to communicate like TTY or VRS or maybe use the computers like e-mail or something.

Trying to understand by listening or understanding what the hearing people say is not going to help us whether we have CI or hearing aids. So get real. Just don't argue with me or other deaf ADers just because you know everything about deafness and believe that CI will help the deaf person to listen and hear by understanding what the hearing people say. Wrong. That is why you need to stop this. :(
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See, again, someone saying that people with CI's can NOT understand spoken language.......:roll:
 
faire_jour said:
See, again, someone saying that people with CI's can NOT understand spoken language.......:roll:
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Actually, that has been discussed. Some right here on this forum with CIs have said they cannot. Look up some of the threads.
 
Bebonang said:
Trying to understand by listening or understanding what the hearing people say is not going to help us whether we have CI or hearing aids. So get real. Just don't argue with me or other deaf ADers just because you know everything about deafness and believe that CI will help the deaf person to listen and hear by understanding what the hearing people say. Wrong. That is why you need to stop this. :(
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With a CI, my profoundly deaf child can listen to and understand what hearing people say -- in quiet rooms, in loud restaurants, across the street, on swing sets, in classrooms, in large groups. For a child implanted before 2, this is what the vast majority experience.
 
AlleyCat said:
Actually, that has been discussed. Some right here on this forum with CIs have said they cannot. Look up some of the threads.
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The CI user's history or background does or could play a factor to the extent they are able to understand spoken language. For instance, if an adult that has been profoundly deaf all their lives and may have also even had little auditory input along the way (i.e. not even wearing hearing aids for the majority of their lives), it'll be more difficult for them to understand spoken language as opposed to a child getting a CI when they're young and getting a good head start training or experience in the beginning.
 
deafdyke said:
Faire joure, Defensive much? I am NOT attacking the CI. I think it rocks. But I DO think that you're not seeing the whole picture. You are seeing what the experts and oral teachers want you to see. Yes, there's been huge gains. BUT, history is going to repeat itself. Seventy years ago when hearing aids were first poplarized you probaly had HUGE numbers of teachers and studies indicating HUGE acheivement gains and or abilty to function fully in the mainstream.
Well first of all, many of those studies may be studying selective populations. Like the AG Bell population can be suburban overacheiver, so that could skew things. Second of all, VERY early implanted CI kids are still kids. The jury is still out.
Yes, I've seen many CI kids. So has jillo. So has shel. Just b/c there are a significent number of AG Bell oralists who are suceeding in the mainstream, it does not mean that will be extrapolarated towards the dhh population as a whole. I would be very skeptical..You are still new to the world of oral deafness. You're just being bedazzled by the same old shit packaged a different way....and I mean I can pretty much guarantee that those studies are sweeping real issues under the rug. I can pretty much guarntee that many of the implanted kids of today will be dealing with a lot of the same issues that other oral deaf kids have in the past.......and you'll have a lot of them posting saying that they don't feel like they fit in, or that they have no friends or whatever.
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Keep in mind that the CI's of nowadays does provide better hearing than hearing aids of the past or even in the present.
 
I know I have mentioned it several times in the previous posts. All I wait is about 15 more years to go and see how children become adults are doing with their CIs and their lifestyles are. This is the only way for me to know what would be result. In my guts, it might be still the SAME result except kids may get gain to have a full tools to access to the language yet they still use ASL as long as they recevies positive vibes, and positive attitudes by the "certain" hearing society.
 
Frisky...to them, ASL is insignificant..they don't care for it as much as they do for spoken language. Not worth our time debating with them.
 
shel90 said:
Frisky...to them, ASL is insignificant..they don't care for it as much as they do for spoken language. Not worth our time debating with them.
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I know. sad.

but you know what, you and I are the ones who can give young CI users with filled of positive attitudes and allow them to make their decisions whatever they prefer to use the method of communication in their lifestyle at a much later. Like i said, hope those little kiddos would recevie positive attitudes in the right time and right place. =/
 
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