SEE is a language... It's English...

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LinuxGold said:
Using explanation of M1 Abrams from Wikipedia, one would agree that ASL is the simplest form of tool to introduce the main idea of M1 Abrams in spoken language and more details can be read in English to research for details in later time. I am sure most teachers or professor TEND to summarize in their opening presentation in classes and to allow students to learn more from books in later time.

SEE (highly detailed, cumbersome and time consuming):

The M1 Abrams is a third-generation main battle tank produced in the United States. It is named after General Creighton Abrams, former Army Chief of Staff and Commander of US military forces in Vietnam from 1968 to 1972. The M1 is a well armed, heavily armored, and highly mobile tank designed for modern armored ground warfare.[6] Notable features of the tank include the use of a powerful gas turbine engine (fueled with JP8 jet fuel), the adoption of sophisticated composite armor, and separate ammunition storage in a blow-out compartment for crew safety. With a weight of close to 68 short tons (almost 62 metric tons), it is one of the heaviest main battle tanks currently in service.


PSE (summarized with sufficient information):

The M1 Abrams is third-generation tank from the United States. It is named after General Creighton Abrams, former Army Chief of Staff. The M1 is a well armed, heavily armored, and highly mobile tank designed for modern armored ground warfare. The tank use powerful gas turbine engine, armor, and ammunition storage in a compartment for crew safety. With a weight of close to 68 short tons, it is one of the heaviest main battle tanks currently in service.


ASL (quickly communicated, expressive and direct to the point):

M1 Abrams that 3rd gen tank by United States. Name M1 from General Creighton Abrams that former Army Chief of Staff. That M1 well armed, heavily armored, easily movable tank for for armored on ground war. Easy ID tank that one: powerful gas turbine engine, two: complex armor, three: ammunition storage for crew safe. HEAVY weight about 68 tons, that lead heavy main battle tanks so far now.
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Meh. Can you use aircraft as examples? Go Air Force!
 
LinuxGold said:
LOL. I'm Air Force brat (my dad).
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Me, too, so let's simply it. For example, an announcement comes on the loudspeaker, "For the Air Force personnel, dinner is served at 1750."
That is ASL.


"For the Navy personnel, dinner is served at five thirty pm."
That is PSE.

"For you Marines, the big hand is on six, and the little hand is on five."
That is SEE.

:P
 
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



how can you possibly know what she is signing?!?

another thread where a parent is disparaged and called uninformed, mislead and an oralist because they didn't do it Jillio's way...
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Here goes another productive thread down the drain.:roll:

Get over yourself.
 
Beowulf said:
Me, too, so let's simply it. For example, an announcement comes on the loudspeaker, "For the Air Force personnel, dinner is served at 1750."
That is ASL.


"For the Navy personnel, dinner is served at five thirty pm."
That is PSE.

"For you Marines, the big hand is on six, and the little hand is on five."
That is SEE.

:P
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Hey!! My dad was a Jarhead!!!

:lol:
 
Steinhauer said:
Yes, and that is why so many deaf are seen as illiterate and stupid (judgement based on their ability to communicate in English).

In my neck of the woods, the deaf are seen as mentally challenged simply because they sign in ASL and communicate in writing by using "broken english".

To a person not familiar with ASL or deaf culture, this "broken english" will make them wonder about the mental competency of the ASL user. Its sad.
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Even many who don't have ASL or as their first language often write in "broken English". The reason has to do with language delays and not ASL itself. This aslo applies to prelingual deaf who have no other langaguage other than English.

I know one deaf woman from a deaf family who taught herself how to write in Japanese but if she had put as much effort in her English, it wouldn't come off as a bit broken. In all fairness to her, English is often cited as one of the most difficult languages to learn though.
 
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Beowulf said:
Me, too, so let's simply it. For example, an announcement comes on the loudspeaker, "For the Air Force personnel, dinner is served at 1750."
That is ASL.


"For the Navy personnel, dinner is served at five thirty pm."
That is PSE.

"For you Marines, the big hand is on six, and the little hand is on five."
That is SEE.

:P
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Post of the year.... Wait.. the last 36 hours of the year.
 
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



how can you possibly know what she is signing?!?

another thread where a parent is disparaged and called uninformed, mislead and an oralist because they didn't do it Jillio's way...
Click to expand...

lol... silly silly you. *shakes head in dismay with a chuckle* look look world happy, you same should. honest what? SEE slow whoa that! SEE equal spoken speed never. need know what said? nope - why why??? SEE slow! THAT! I work hard pretty sound beautiful ASL.
 
posts from hell said:
lol... silly silly you. *shakes head in dismay with a chuckle* look look world happy, you same should. honest what? SEE slow whoa that! SEE equal spoken speed never. need know what said? nope - why why??? SEE slow! THAT! I work hard pretty sound beautiful ASL.
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Yes, THAT!
 
Wirelessly posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by jillio
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSign
I wouldn't say SEE is responsible for all of that. I would have to give my son credit as well because he is smart and takes it all in. I am able to sign at the same pace as my voice, without compromising the integrity of either. And yes, I use all the prepositions, endings etc. In order to give a complete visual representation of what I'm saying. It didn't happen overnight. I took classes, studied, and use it everyday. That is how I was able to get to where I'm at today. I'm well read, and have researched all sides of this.
Sorry, there is no way on this earth that you can sign SEE as rapidly as you vocalize the same message. I doubt seriously that you are using SEE. You are no doubt using PSE.
how can you possibly know what she is signing?!?

another thread where a parent is disparaged and called uninformed, mislead and an oralist because they didn't do it Jillio's way...
Today 10:54 AM

Any person with reasonable critical thinking skills would come to the realization that not a person on this forum HA's the slightest idea about my signing abilities.

"Do you mind a question? How old is your son? What testing and what criteria has a professional used to support your claims that his use of English is advanced to the degree that you claim it is? Has he had a formal language assessment? There are many many more aspects to fluency than simply expressing needs and wants and being able to read a sentence with an average degree of comprehension." Jillio

My son is almost 7. Are you really asking me if my son has been formally assessed by an expert? Um, yeah... Just like every other child in the school system that qualifies for an IEP and parents consent to services.
He hasn't had and language delays from the beginning. And as of 3 he was doing so well they didnt want to provide him with services or a placement. Not because he wasn't in the lower 7 th percentile but because his language (among other things) exceeded his chronological age. Can you believe it??
He achieved that from the use of SEE and TC. Wow. You would think I was saying that aliens came and infused the knowledge in his brain.
Going by some of the logic in previous posts about how a deaf Childs brain is wired to use visual language (ASL), then the same would have to hold true of hearing children of 2 Deaf parents. Those parents should be speaking and Signing Exact English because those childrens brains are wired for auditory input.
You will all say in chorus, "but no!!". Some Deaf individuals cannot clearly articulate the English language, and their signing won't be a proper model for the children to acquire a complete language as their native language is ASL. They are not proficient enough in SEE to provide the information for the children to master English.

All I am saying is that one must determine how they can provide complete access to language, and what the ultimate goals are. For two Deaf parents with a hearing child it makes sense, and it is appropriate for ASL to be that hearing Childs native language. That is because they can provide a complete language model in ASL.

For a child of two hearing parents with no experience in ASL, who want their child to master English sooner than later, it makes sense to use SEE. There are many other factors at play, but I'll leave it there.

There is no one "right" way to do things. My child is a success, according to the "professionals." He is also a success according to his friends, family, and every person he comes in contact with.

Ever heard the saying, "don't knock it till you've tried it?"

C
 
I think the most important thing is - does HE see himself as a success? And will he have the same answer in 5 or 6 years?

these are purely questions. what you make of it is up to you
 
"I think the most important thing is - does HE see himself as a success? And will he have the same answer in 5 or 6 years?"

I absolutely agree his self worth and self esteem are the most important thing. Yes, he absolutely is proud of who he is in every part of him.
The answer won't change in 5-6 years because we will continue providing the love and support he needs to continue doing well. That's not to say that things won't change at all in the next 5-6 years, but he will most certainly feel positive about himself and still be doing well. That's also not to say that he won't need help with anything in the future, but our purpose as parents is to stay ahead of the game and make sure he is getting what he needs...which he has and always will...
 
CSign said:
Wirelessly posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by jillio
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSign
I wouldn't say SEE is responsible for all of that. I would have to give my son credit as well because he is smart and takes it all in. I am able to sign at the same pace as my voice, without compromising the integrity of either. And yes, I use all the prepositions, endings etc. In order to give a complete visual representation of what I'm saying. It didn't happen overnight. I took classes, studied, and use it everyday. That is how I was able to get to where I'm at today. I'm well read, and have researched all sides of this.
Sorry, there is no way on this earth that you can sign SEE as rapidly as you vocalize the same message. I doubt seriously that you are using SEE. You are no doubt using PSE.
how can you possibly know what she is signing?!?

another thread where a parent is disparaged and called uninformed, mislead and an oralist because they didn't do it Jillio's way...
Today 10:54 AM

Any person with reasonable critical thinking skills would come to the realization that not a person on this forum HA's the slightest idea about my signing abilities.

"Do you mind a question? How old is your son? What testing and what criteria has a professional used to support your claims that his use of English is advanced to the degree that you claim it is? Has he had a formal language assessment? There are many many more aspects to fluency than simply expressing needs and wants and being able to read a sentence with an average degree of comprehension." Jillio

My son is almost 7.

Boy, are you early in the journey. Do you realize that the gaps widen as he gets older?
Are you really asking me if my son has been formally assessed by an expert? Um, yeah... Just like every other child in the school system that qualifies for an IEP and parents consent to services.

School systems do not do formal language age assessments for an IEP.

He hasn't had and language delays from the beginning. And as of 3 he was doing so well they didnt want to provide him with services or a placement. Not because he wasn't in the lower 7 th percentile but because his language (among other things) exceeded his chronological age. Can you believe it??
He achieved that from the use of SEE and TC. Wow. You would think I was saying that aliens came and infused the knowledge in his brain.

You know, you really need to have your son written up as a case study. He is truly remarkable, and I know of many researchers that would love to study his case.

Going by some of the logic
It isn't logic. It is science. in previous posts about how a deaf Childs brain is wired to use visual language (ASL), then the same would have to hold true of hearing children of 2 Deaf parents. Those parents should be speaking and Signing Exact English because those childrens brains are wired for auditory input.

You simply do not understand the concepts you are so certian you know everything about. And your logic in this conclusion is faulty as a result.

You will all say in chorus, "but no!!". Some Deaf individuals cannot clearly articulate the English language, and their signing won't be a proper model for the children to acquire a complete language as their native language is ASL. They are not proficient enough in SEE to provide the information for the children to master English.

SEE isn't necessary for mastery of English.

All I am saying is that one must determine how they can provide complete access to language, and what the ultimate goals are. For two Deaf parents with a hearing child it makes sense, and it is appropriate for ASL to be that hearing Childs native language. That is because they can provide a complete language model in ASL.

It is appropriate for a deaf child of a hearing parent to have ASL as their L1 language.

For a child of two hearing parents with no experience in ASL, who want their child to master English sooner than later, it makes sense to use SEE. There are many other factors at play, but I'll leave it there.

No it doesn't. Not for all. Some parents don't choose L1 language based on the convenience of the hearing.

There is no one "right" way to do things. My child is a success, according to the "professionals." He is also a success according to his friends, family, and every person he comes in contact with.

Your child is doing well at this point in time according to your report.

Ever heard the saying, "don't knock it till you've tried it?"

Yep. It would appear that is exactly what you are doing.
C
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Perhaps you missed all the posts in this forum of deaf individuals who have actually experienced SEE, and TOD's who use it as a teaching tool.

BTW...started reading the Meadows book on deafness and child development yet?
 
CSign said:
"I think the most important thing is - does HE see himself as a success? And will he have the same answer in 5 or 6 years?"

I absolutely agree his self worth and self esteem are the most important thing. Yes, he absolutely is proud of who he is in every part of him.
The answer won't change in 5-6 years because we will continue providing the love and support he needs to continue doing well. That's not to say that things won't change at all in the next 5-6 years, but he will most certainly feel positive about himself and still be doing well. That's also not to say that he won't need help with anything in the future, but our purpose as parents is to stay ahead of the game and make sure he is getting what he needs...which he has and always will...
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Be very, very careful with that crystal ball.
 
Jillio, you are incredibly condescending. It's all good. I'm n
 
Not going to lose any sleep over this thread. I'm confident in what I'm doing and the choices I've made. You clearly skipped over half my post as I referenced the fact that things will likely shift on some areas in the future, but as good parents we will continue staying on top op it. The positive energy you exude is infectious.
 
CSign said:
Not going to lose any sleep over this thread. I'm confident in what I'm doing and the choices I've made. You clearly skipped over half my post as I referenced the fact that things will likely shift on some areas in the future, but as good parents we will continue staying on top op it. The positive energy you exude is infectious.
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Didn't skip a bit of it. And there was nothing condescending in my post. You stated that you were well read and well researched, so I was simply asking you if all that reading and research, you had encountered information on when, how, and why the gaps widen. I was prepared to get into a discussion with you regarding that, but hey, I guess not.

Comfortable with your choice? Good for you. Then why are you spending so much time trying to justify it?
 
Like I have mentioned before, too many hearing parents of deaf children rely too much on what the 'professionals' say and there are many gaps as there is a lot they don't really know first hand and a lot of information about resources and what is available that they don't tell you. They only tell you as much as to keep you in their clutches coming back to them for more of the same.
 
CSign said:
Not going to lose any sleep over this thread. I'm confident in what I'm doing and the choices I've made. You clearly skipped over half my post as I referenced the fact that things will likely shift on some areas in the future, but as good parents we will continue staying on top op it. The positive energy you exude is infectious.
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You came in here stating that SEE is a language. We are telling you that it is not. Many of us have experience with it and know that it is very cumbersome. I have a hard time believing that 100% SEE is being used in the educational setting because of how much time it takes to get the message across.
 
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